Newbie progress ... too many variables

"Craig Pennington" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I participated my third race since I started running back in April. I
am still in the beginning stage where I am improving quickly, which is
good for the motivation. But there are a whole bunch of not necessarily
independent variables that have changed during this period. I am
curious about how others see the relative importance to race performance
of these variables. Here are the stats from my three races:

Pace Wkly
Date Time Dist mpm Dist Temp BMI Training
08/04 19:00 5k 10:49 11m 97dF 28.1 Base Bldg
09/10 18:00 5k 10:01 18m 85dF 27.6 Base Bldg
10/16 9:00 5m 8:56 29m 55dF 27.0 Base Bldg + hills + tempo

I train in the very early morning. The first two races were in the
early evening and the last one was in the morning. My weekly training
distance two weeks prior to the races increased at about the 10%/week
rate. The first two races were hot, the last one was cool. I am
dropping weight at a regular rate. I went from a more or less
balanced effort on a flat course training week for the first two
races to a short-hard/medium-medium/long-easy week also adding
rolling hills to the medium and long runs.

IMO, the increased endurance is the most important, and the dropping
weight is related to this. I am getting into better shape. But I also
feel like the temperature drop helped significantly, too. And I don't
think I would have been able to maintain my pace without the tempo
runs (and maybe the hills.) Or am I overthinking three data points?

I find that lower temps (50F is ideal IMO), addition of tempo runs,
weight loss, and overall increased base mileage all contribute to big
performance gains.
I suggest that you maintain what you're doing, don't increase more than
10%/week, until your performance plateau out. Then cut back on the intense
stuff, and do mostly all easy miles for a few weeks, then build back up
again by adding the intense workouts. IME, speed/tempo/hill workouts are
fairly high intensity, and should not be continued ad infinitum. By making
'seasons' out of your training, you will see higher performance at the end
of each season, with much less chance of burnout.
If you want to add data points beyond a 5k every couple months, I
suggest that on the easy day after your long run (or any day not following a
speed/tempo/hill session), that you run one mile at the end of your workout,
timed. Give yourself time to loosen up before starting. Run it at a
comfortably fast pace, and try and run dead even or somewhat negative splits
(negative = speeding up). It's very low impact but gives you a great feel
for comfort at a faster pace.

Dave

Craig Pennington said:

Or am I overthinking three data points?

Nah, it's plainly true that training, weight, and temperature are big
factors in race performance. The latter only becomes a factor in a
sufficiently long race (shedding excess body heat in the presence of
high external temps just doesn't come into play in an 800m) but a 45
min race is enough to make a difference.

Some rough rules of thumb -

temp: each degree F over 60 slows you by a second/mile
weight: your pace will improve proportionally to weight loss
(i.e. pace is inversely proportional to weight), if
you're not near ideal race weight
training: it works if you do it right :-)

Craig Pennington said:

I participated my third race since I started running back in April. I
am still in the beginning stage where I am improving quickly, which is
good for the motivation. But there are a whole bunch of not necessarily
independent variables that have changed during this period. I am
curious about how others see the relative importance to race performance
of these variables. Here are the stats from my three races:

Pace Wkly
Date Time Dist mpm Dist Temp BMI Training
08/04 19:00 5k 10:49 11m 97dF 28.1 Base Bldg
09/10 18:00 5k 10:01 18m 85dF 27.6 Base Bldg
10/16 9:00 5m 8:56 29m 55dF 27.0 Base Bldg + hills + tempo

I train in the very early morning. The first two races were in the
early evening and the last one was in the morning. My weekly training
distance two weeks prior to the races increased at about the 10%/week
rate. The first two races were hot, the last one was cool. I am
dropping weight at a regular rate. I went from a more or less
balanced effort on a flat course training week for the first two
races to a short-hard/medium-medium/long-easy week also adding
rolling hills to the medium and long runs.

IMO, the increased endurance is the most important, and the dropping
weight is related to this. I am getting into better shape. But I also
feel like the temperature drop helped significantly, too. And I don't
think I would have been able to maintain my pace without the tempo
runs (and maybe the hills.) Or am I overthinking three data points?

All three variables make a huge difference. Humidity is also important. 85 and
humid could be as bad as 97 and dry.

Also, heat interacts with bodyweight -- if you're too heavy, you will be more
affected by heat. So the heat penalty in the first race is augmented by your
extra bodyweight -- they are not strictly additive.

In terms of my own experience, I'd expect to lose about a 40-60s or so (8-12
seconds per mile) on a nasty 85 degree day in a 5 mile race. But in percentage
terms, that's about 2.5-3.5% slower. So for you, maybe 13-20 seconds per mile
slower. Problem with that is, you're heavier than I am, so you're probably
more affected by heat. Maybe it's more like 30 seconds per mile or so. It's
just really hard to tell. I personally don't even bother trying to compare my
summer race times to fall or spring, I just try to beat my summer times next
year.

The weight part is easier -- at such a high BMI, times should drop in direct
or almost direct proportion to weight, so expect about a 3-4% drop in times
from this (about 18-24 seconds a mile)

About endurance -- it's easier to track endurance if you do some interval
workouts with full recoveries, because these aren't affected by heat. (heat
accumulates, but the rests prevent that) It's harder to closely monitor
improvements during base building, which is OK, but you have to be prepared to
go on faith and have confidence in your training.

Sorry if that's not as precise as you wanted, but I hope it gives you some idea.
It's really hard to tell, especially since you've got three factors that are
all interacting.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Quoth Donovan Rebbechi <[email hidden]>:
[snip]

Quoted message said:

Also, heat interacts with bodyweight -- if you're too heavy, you will be more
affected by heat. So the heat penalty in the first race is augmented by your
extra bodyweight -- they are not strictly additive.

Don't I know it.

[snip]

Quoted message said:

slower. Problem with that is, you're heavier than I am, so you're probably
more affected by heat.

I am, but given that my BMI was 32 when I started in April, I was used to it.
The 97dF was uncomfortable, but not as uncomfortable as 60dF at a 32 BMI.

Quoted message said:

... I personally don't even bother trying to compare my
summer race times to fall or spring, I just try to beat my summer times next
year.

Shouldn't be hard for me.

Quoted message said:

The weight part is easier -- at such a high BMI, times should drop in direct
or almost direct proportion to weight, so expect about a 3-4% drop in times
from this (about 18-24 seconds a mile)

Given my frame, I don't expect to drop below 23. Regardless, I have a
ways to go, and the weight loss has slowed quite a bit recently. Still
headed in the right direction, but I have to work at the diet more than
I did at first.

Quoted message said:

About endurance -- it's easier to track endurance if you do some interval
workouts with full recoveries, because these aren't affected by heat. (heat
accumulates, but the rests prevent that) It's harder to closely monitor
improvements during base building, which is OK, but you have to be prepared to
go on faith and have confidence in your training.

I do. Well not so much that I don't read everything I can get my hands
on to make sure I'm not doing anything too dumb.

Quoted message said:

Sorry if that's not as precise as you wanted, but I hope it gives you some idea.
It's really hard to tell, especially since you've got three factors that are
all interacting.

I wasn't looking for too much precision at this stage. Everyone who answered was
quite helpful. Thank you. Thanks to everyone.

Cheers,
Craig

--
Corollary to Clarke's Third Law:
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently
advanced.

Quoth Charlie Pendejo <[email hidden]>:
[snip]

Quoted message said:

training: it works if you do it right :-)

Yeah, but I'm still learning what constitutes training. Given how out
of shape I was when I started, any training that didn't injure me was
likely to yield significant improvement. That said, I'll be surprised
if I ever decrease my race pace anything like 1'+/mile while increasing
my distance by 60% again.

BTW, I am also an ex-smoker (though I've been quit a while now.)
Congratulations on finally moving fully to the 'ex' category. As I
was doing my last race, I passed an empty pack discarded on the
road (not my brand) and cursed every cigarette I'd ever smoked. Then
I wondered how many that'd been. I figured, at an average of 1 pack a
day, for 15 years that works out to about 110,000. And that's not even
counting the ones I smoked second hand in my parents car with the
windows rolled up. My grandfather died two years ago of throat cancer.
He was still smoking. Nothing will move you faster fully into the 'ex'
category than watching a dying man hold his thumb over his trach so he
can pull the smoke into his lungs. I had been quit for better than 5
years prior to that, but still had the occasional craving. Never since.

Cheers,
Craig

--
Corollary to Clarke's Third Law:
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently
advanced.

Quoth David Geesaman <[email hidden]>:
[snip]

Quoted message said:

I suggest that you maintain what you're doing, don't increase more than
10%/week, until your performance plateau out. Then cut back on the intense
stuff, and do mostly all easy miles for a few weeks, then build back up
again by adding the intense workouts. IME, speed/tempo/hill workouts are
fairly high intensity, and should not be continued ad infinitum. By making
'seasons' out of your training, you will see higher performance at the end
of each season, with much less chance of burnout.

David, thanks for the advice. Are you advising that 'seasons' be
based on my response to training? Since my goal is a marathon about a
year out, I had planned on keeping on building and "racing" (including
up to 1/2 marathons) through Spring and then going on a marathon
specific program X weeks back from whatever fall marathon I end up in
(maybe Marine Corps or Baltimore or Rock Creek.) I *think* I can
train to do a sub 4hr, but I will adjust my goal as time passes.

Quoted message said:

If you want to add data points beyond a 5k every couple months, I
suggest that on the easy day after your long run (or any day not following a
speed/tempo/hill session), that you run one mile at the end of your workout,
timed. Give yourself time to loosen up before starting. Run it at a
comfortably fast pace, and try and run dead even or somewhat negative splits
(negative = speeding up). It's very low impact but gives you a great feel
for comfort at a faster pace.

I am lucky in that I live in a county with very good trails marked
every half mile by the Parks dept (as well as some race distances
marked in paint by local running clubs.) It'll be easy to do as
you suggest.

Cheers,
Craig

--
Corollary to Clarke's Third Law:
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently
advanced.

"Craig Pennington" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoth David Geesaman <[email hidden]>:
[snip]

Quoted message said:

I suggest that you maintain what you're doing, don't increase more
than
10%/week, until your performance plateau out. Then cut back on the
intense
stuff, and do mostly all easy miles for a few weeks, then build back up
again by adding the intense workouts. IME, speed/tempo/hill workouts are
fairly high intensity, and should not be continued ad infinitum. By
making
'seasons' out of your training, you will see higher performance at the
end
of each season, with much less chance of burnout.

David, thanks for the advice. Are you advising that 'seasons' be
based on my response to training?

Lacking any structure at all, I would do that.

Quoted message said:

Since my goal is a marathon about a
year out, I had planned on keeping on building and "racing" (including
up to 1/2 marathons) through Spring and then going on a marathon
specific program X weeks back from whatever fall marathon I end up in
(maybe Marine Corps or Baltimore or Rock Creek.) I *think* I can
train to do a sub 4hr, but I will adjust my goal as time passes.

Sounds like a good plan. I suggest you set an intermediate goal - like
a half marathons in the early spring that you will taper and peak for. In
case you don't know what that means, continue running some races in among
your regular training, but have it 'end' with a more important one. Reduce
your mileage by 30-40% for the last 2-3 weeks before that big race, and
improve the quality (as in, cut down the length of recovery runs, do your
speedwork with more rest between reps, faster reps, and less reps total,
push your tempo runs a little harder). You should feel immediately a boost
in your response, more spring in your step. On race day, give yourself a
nice long easy warmup, and trust that you're very well rested and ready to
perform. In my experience, this provides for one hell of a good
performance. I find that this peak lasts about 3-6 weeks.
Then back down on the tempo runs and speed work and just do light easy
miles for a couple of weeks - this is a rest phase. Then ramp up in mileage
again for about 4-6 weeks, and start the marathon training program.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If you want to add data points beyond a 5k every couple months, I
suggest that on the easy day after your long run (or any day not
following a
speed/tempo/hill session), that you run one mile at the end of your
workout,
timed. Give yourself time to loosen up before starting. Run it at a
comfortably fast pace, and try and run dead even or somewhat negative
splits
(negative = speeding up). It's very low impact but gives you a great
feel
for comfort at a faster pace.

I am lucky in that I live in a county with very good trails marked
every half mile by the Parks dept (as well as some race distances
marked in paint by local running clubs.)

Try to use the same segment for that timed mile. Choose one with an
effortlessly smooth surface - or just use a track.

Yes, you are lucky. The few trails in my area are either really boring
rail-to-trail conversions or extremely rocky and treacherous hiking trails.
Everything else is paved. I miss my university, which had dozens of miles
of trails within 10 minutes drive of campus.

Dave