My NYC survival report

Ryan.....sorry to hear about what happend....and I hate to LOL so hard at your expense....but I was
right there with you....from the 4 hour wait to the start of the Greens....to being quite startled
when the cannon fired (suddenly with no advance warning). However I actually turned to a guy next to
me and said, "what the hell was that?"....I thought it was unplanned, terrorism...anything....the
guy looked at me and said, "that's the start pal"...hahaha.

You're in better shape than me....my legs are shot, my hips hurt...and I'm limping. Maybe tomorrow I
won't walk like I have a stick up you know where.....

Good luck pal...

Andrew....

"Ryan Pearman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

(...) Had a bagel, 32oz of gatorade, and a couple of bananas during those 4 hours.

Although I wouldn´t eat more than 2-3 slices of toast bread before a morning marathon, what you had
doesn´t seem too much.

Quoted message said:

1 -- 7:23 (all uphill -- that's OK) 2 -- 6:00 (all downhill, maybe a little fast, but IN control)
3 -- 6:40 4 -- 6:39 5 -- 6:41
6.2 -- 8:10 (where did mile 6 go?) 7 -- 5:15 8 -- 6:50 Through out all of this, I felt great. I
felt like i was holding back. I was focused on my breathing, I knew the effort I had to maintain
to lock in a good time. It looks like I was 5 or so seconds ahead of pace, so that was probably
error number 1.

It doesn´t mean anything that one *feels* like one is holding back and in control: that downhill
mile was a bit mad from my own experience (I have a similar set of PBs and I´ve found that I have
a very thin margin of safety when I exceed my race pace) I´d say that your continuing at 5
seconds ahead of your goal pace would quite probably have caused you major problems later in the
race in any case.

Quoted message said:

11 -- 7:15 12 -- 7:23 13 -- 7:18 From mile 11 to the end of the race is very hazy in my memory. My
stomach started to act up (like bad gas) and I slowed considerably. I think. I honestly don't know
what was going on here. I do remember thinking that I had *too much stuff* in my gut, and had a
wave of nausea somewhere betweeen 12 and 13.1 that I actually had to stop for.

My first guess is that you´re probably suffering from a stomach infection caused by a flu or some
other virus. They are fairly common and don´t necessarily have any major symptoms.

Quoted message said:

And then it happened -- I lost it all. Literally. Anything and everything I had eaten that morning
came out on a sidewalk on Vernon Ave. Ans with it came 6 months of hard work. I've never had this
happen before -- well, yes I did, after my last 23 3 weeks ago, but I attributed that to a) not
fully recovering from my 1:24 half one week prior + a bit of a head cold + too much hydration
after I finished (although the last 2+ miles of that training run was absolutely horrible) It's
easy to chalk things up to excuses, but looking back I can see the signs that point to today.

I´m quite satisfied with my diagnosis now...

But while I fully understand your over-dramatic expression, those 6 months of hard work are still
there, only half a bucketful was spilt on the floor:-)

BTW I strongly believe that 4 weeks before the place was no time to run a new HM PB, it should´ve
been the time to run a MP HM, to practise steady pacing (and possibly to check that the MP is
HR-wise in the right ballpark).

During the eight weeks leading to one´s goal marathon one must zoom in on the singular goal, forget
about other PBs and drop a favorite race!

Quoted message said:

(...) I'm in for next year, and I'll probably do it.

You´ll be a bit wiser - but it´s no guarantee against having another bad day for some
other reason:-)

Quoted message said:

But I think I need a break from running for a bit.

You´ve earned it.

Quoted message said:

I've had a sucessful season, setting prs from the 5k to the half distance.

Chances are that by your next marathon, you´ve pushed your whole envelope a bit further, which
means that the sub-3 pace no longer cuts so close, and those 5 seconds ahead of pace won´t become
any burden!

Quoted message said:

I refuse to be classified on the basis of one performance.

Why, I would be proud to be classified by your performance! All marathoners know that the story
behind the time can sometimes be a truer measure of the performance than the time alone.

Quoted message said:

Thanks to those of you who read this. If anybody has ever had this happen to them, *please* let me
know what you think caused it, and what you would do to prevent/fix it when it happens.

See a doc who´ll get the lab results to confirm my diagnosis. In future, repeat, if early
symptoms appear:-)

Anders

Ryan - Very sorry that the final result was not what you expected.

Since I'm hoping to be at about the same level as you were for NY in about 2 months with similar
preparation, your report is a timely reminder of what can go wrong...

You said yourself that it could have been over-concentrated sports drink and that your stomach felt
"too full" at 1 stage. Those gel-packs - do you take them with water, or is that also highly
concentrated?

I know that Owen Anderson (peak performance) recommends specific percentages of carbs during
marathons - too low and your body is not getting enough carbs, too high - and you can have
stomach problems.

Good luck for future running and racing, and well done on finishing such a tough run.

Anthony.

Anthony said:

You said yourself that it could have been over-concentrated sports drink and that your stomach
felt "too full" at 1 stage.

Too weak or too strong is always a problem especially if they are mixed at the aid station by those
that don't follow the instructions and this is not uncommon. I noticed at some of my races the sport
drink is mixed at a central place and delivered to the aid stations to guarantee the proper mix and
I seldom sense a change in strength.

< Those gel-packs - do

Quoted message said:

you take them with water, or is that also highly concentrated?

Good point and if you were washing down the concentrated Gels with gatoryuk mixed too strong or not
enough water, you may have helped your own demise. The carb concentration should be about 6% if I
remember correctly. Knowing this, how much water should you drink with a gel? Wanna bet most don't
have the any idea?

--
Doug Freese "Caveat Lector" [email hidden]

"Doug Freese" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

< Those gel-packs - do

Quoted message said:

you take them with water, or is that also highly concentrated?

Quoted message said:

Good point and if you were washing down the concentrated Gels with gatoryuk mixed too strong or
not enough water, you may have helped your own demise. The carb concentration should be about 6%
if I remember correctly. Knowing this, how much water should you drink with a gel? Wanna bet most
don't have the any idea?

Yet another example of unnecessary technology outfoxing a dumb runner.

When I did my GIANT RUN (tm) earlier this summer - the memory of which still 'causes me to wince - I
ran on water and coca-cola and did just fine, apart from a gippy tummy for a couple of hours after
the run. All this 'runners fuel' is so much [censored], and you're a sucker (literally and metaphorically)
if you believe otherwise.

Roger.

apusapus said:

When I did my GIANT RUN (tm) earlier this summer -

Is this the tidbit of info we are to seach on to find out your real or imagined name? Save us the
trouble and include the web page.

Quoted message said:

the memory of which still 'causes me to wince - I ran on water and coca-cola and did just fine,

You are the man and we are all boys. So you and Willie [censored] follow the same extrapolation
technique - what's good for me must be good for you. I love pure science. I also enjoy the humor.

--
Doug Freese "Caveat Lector" [email hidden]

"Doug Freese" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Is this the tidbit of info we are to seach on to find out your real or imagined name? Save us the
trouble and include the web page.

No. Do the work or do not do the work. I couldn't care less.

Quoted message said:

What's good for me must be good for you. I love pure science. I also

enjoy the humor.

Whilst "what's good for me must be good for you" may or may not be true, the fact remains that (my)
anecdotal evidence suggests that the current range of gels cause as least many problems as they
claim to cure, primarily cramping or other gastro-intestinal maladies. Taking such a concoction when
you are trying to perform to your best is, I submit, not a Good Idea.

Roger.

"Ryan Pearman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

3:37. Yuk. But lets take a look at those splits:

1:22 to the start
42:57 (10k -- ~41:30)
1:31:36 (13.1 -- ~1:30:20)
2:33:12 (20-- ~ 2:32:00)

3:39:09 (26.2 -- 3:37:47 (chip time))

Folks, I am at odds with my performance at nyc. I was shooting for a sub-3, at the worst a 3:10
BQ, and (thought) I did all the right training (~55mpw peak), had 5runs at 20+ miles, set prs
in the 10k
(37:50) and half (1:24), so I thought I was there. Hell, I even took my *own* sports drink there
just to keep things consistent. But, lets start at the beginning.

If you are using a half marathon time as a predictor of your marathon result you really must run the
marathon at the same effort that you ran the half in. I've found my half marathon time to be a poor
predictor of my marathon times because I don't run the marathon at nearly the same effort I've run
the halves in.

Quoted message said:

there), but really didn't mind the sun when she came out around
8:00ish. Also managed to get some zz's. Had a bagel, 32oz of gatorade, and a couple of banannas
during those 4 hours.

Everybody will be different but the tough part about NYC is that 2 hours after you start your
body will expect lunch. You really have to eat a full breakfast. I learned that after my first
NYC marathon.

<marathon experience snipped.>

Quoted message said:

What lessons can I learn?
1) Don't overfill your stomach.
2) My sports drink may have beeen to concentrated -- that's bad
3) Lighten up the pace a bit more in the early miles, but there's NO WAY that caused me to blow
up that soon.

You will have to experiment with various re-fueling methods. I found that sports drink will cramp my
stomach and I've found that power bars work best for me. I start one at 11 miles and gradually eat
it through
22.

The other thing I swear by in marathoning is a solid foundation. I gradually build up to 13 mile
runs that I'll do once a month before I'm ready to start training. Then I'll do 15 milers and won't
stop until I achieve a goal time. I'll usually do 3 or 4 of them. Then I'll gradually build up my
long run to 22 miles over the next 6 weeks. I do long runs once a week and then do a 2 week taper.
If you want to run NYC better next year start training in January.

I know I'm training right because I'll hit 5 miles in a long run and feel as though I've
just started.

If this was your first marathon then it will take you a few tries to get it right. Experience counts
for a hell of a lot in marathons.

Best to you and congrats on finishing.

Andy

Quoted message said:

Thanks to those of you who read this. If anybody has ever had this happen to them, *please* let me
know what you think caused it, and what you would do to prevent/fix it when it happens.

--Ryan

apusapus said:

Whilst "what's good for me must be good for you" may or may not be true, the fact remains that
(my) anecdotal evidence suggests that the current range of gels cause as least many problems as
they claim to cure, primarily cramping or other gastro-intestinal maladies.

I'll agree with you on this point.

Taking such a concoction when you are

Quoted message said:

trying to perform to your best is, I submit, not a Good Idea.

I'll disagree here. Oodles of people, go out and count them, take gels for carbs and do very well
with them just others do well with powders and still others from factory bottled. In all cases,
assuming a "reasonable" carb, they must be mixed correctly and/or consumed correctly. There is a
perception that gels are some magic potion - gulp it down and instant rocket fuel. It's not gels are
a bad idea but faulty usage. They are pretty damn light, convenient and work well if you can
tolerate the taste.

I won't argue about coke and water through a 50k distance as I've done that and with maybe a few fig
newtons but my pre race meal was pancakes, eggs, bacon...basically I was full before my first step.

--
Doug Freese "Caveat Lector" [email hidden]

You went out too hard. That 5:15, 6:00, and couple of 6:40s took it all out of your legs. You
probably could have still thrown up and finished under
3:20. I have found when I PR at a race I never feel like I was ever going very hard at all. At
every distance from 5K to marathon, when I PRed I was in control the whole time. I always
felt like there was a huge reserve left in the tank. I think you're pacing could have been
better planned. If you had wanted to do a 3:00 you should have just held 6:52s, the 6:40s are
way too fast. The 10sec/mile faster you go in the beginning of race can cost you minutes per
mile in the end.

Good luck next year.

Joe

"Ryan Pearman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

3:37. Yuk. But lets take a look at those splits:

1:22 to the start
42:57 (10k -- ~41:30)
1:31:36 (13.1 -- ~1:30:20)
2:33:12 (20-- ~ 2:32:00)

3:39:09 (26.2 -- 3:37:47 (chip time))

Folks, I am at odds with my performance at nyc. I was shooting for a sub-3, at the worst a 3:10
BQ, and (thought) I did all the right training (~55mpw peak), had 5runs at 20+ miles, set prs
in the 10k
(37:50) and half (1:24), so I thought I was there. Hell, I even took my *own* sports drink there
just to keep things consistent. But, lets start at the beginning.

Hung around Ft. Wadsworth for ~4 hours, and even though it's boring as sin, it's great not to have
to fend off the masses for the port-a-san lines. I have what you might call "nervous runner
intestine syndrome" and usually have a need to take care of business. =) It actually was a little
brisk that morning (reminder -- take more warm clothes there), but really didn't mind the sun when
she came out around
8:00ish. Also managed to get some zz's. Had a bagel, 32oz of gatorade, and a couple of banannas
during those 4 hours.

The start: First and foremost, I was annoyed by my seed (bib 5402, 3rd green corral), but
approaching "my" corral I realized that the corral numbers were apparently just suggestions. So I
joined with the many others and just went forward as far as I could until I saw numbers that
looked more like mine. Still, was pretty far back from the start, heard the cannon unexpectedly,
and we were off. Took over a minute to cross the line there, but immediately saw a difference in
other races -- the course had a choke point *at the start line*, which was great, since it let
people get running immediately as people fanned out. I was able to get on pace quickly.

My goal, as I said, a sub-3, so I was to hold ~6:45-6:50 at the start and see how it went. Splits:
1 -- 7:23 (all uphill -- that's OK) 2 -- 6:00 (all downhill, maybe a little fast, but IN control)
3 -- 6:40 4 -- 6:39 5 -- 6:41
6.2 -- 8:10 (where did mile 6 go?) 7 -- 5:15 8 -- 6:50 9 -- 7:00 10 -- 6:41

Through out all of this, I felt great. I felt like i was holding back. I was focused on my
breathing, I knew the effort I had to maintain to lock in a good time. It looks like I was 5 or so
seconds ahead of pace, so that was probably error number 1. But, I had just an amazing experience
during these first 10 miles, it was like a dream. The pacing looks a little uneven, but not too
bad. My plan was to drink ~3 oz of sports beverage every 3 miles, and a cup of water every other 3
miles. So, mile 1.5 was sports drink, 3 was water, etc. I like to eat those gel packs, too, so I
took one every 4+ miles. Again, nothing terribly new here, although the frequency fuel consumption
was increased.

11 -- 7:15 12 -- 7:23 13 -- 7:18

From mile 11 to the end of the race is very hazy in my memory. My stomach started to act up (like
bad gas) and I slowed considerably. I think. I honestly don't know what was going on here. I do
remember thinking that I had *too much stuff* in my gut, and had a wave of nausea somewhere
betweeen 12 and 13.1 that I actually had to stop for. 3 hours was out, but perhaps I could hang on
for 3:10.

14 -- 8:49

And then it happened -- I lost it all. Literally. Anything and everything I had eaten that morning
came out on a sidewalk on Vernon Ave. Ans with it came 6 months of hard work. I've never had this
happen before -- well, yes I did, after my last 23 3 weeks ago, but I attributed that to a) not
fully recovering from my 1:24 half one week prior + a bit of a head cold + too much hydration
after I finished (although the last 2+ miles of that training run was absolutely horrible) It's
easy to chalk things up to excuses, but looking back I can see the signs that point to today.
Strangely enough, I began to feel better after that, and kept going. I made a decision to try to
get some water in me (slowly) at the next water stop.

15 -- 7:10 16 -- 7:47

Up (and down) the Queensboro bridge. Probably not terrible times, even if I was on pace, but that
little bit of water started to make my tummy rumble again (and my legs were leaving me).

From then on, my stomach was completely in a knot, and I could manage no more than ~1/2 mile
running followed by walking. I could not tolerate any additional sports drink, nor the power gel I
tried to eat around mile 17. Somewhere on First Ave, lost my lunch again, although there wasn't
anything much left to lose. I do have to say that the crowd was great (although I did them all a
courtesy and left the course to do my business) with everybody (even a couple of FDNY folk)
offering me water. I just had to chuckle -- it's what I needed, but also the last thing that I
could use.

17 -- 8:22 18 -- 8:25 19 -- 12:02 20 -- 9:51 21 -- 10:07 22 -- 9:26 23 -- 10:34 24 -- 12:07 25 --
12:25 26 -- 9:26
26.2 -- 1:51

Well, the rest of the race was a struggle just to keep moving forward, running about half of each
mile, cramping up, and trying to get sips of water down. I was extremely disappointed, and broke
down sobbing (dry sobs!) two or three times. Scared my cheering gallery at Marcus Garvey park by
heading over to them and letting them know the news. I lost all hope of a 3:10 aroud mile 17/18,
and a PR around mile 21. I'll have to say that I really wanted to quit, but kept going. Felt like
I had asthma somewhere around mile 22 to the end, my breathing felt like my head was hollow
between 24-25. But, by that point there was a large clan of us "running" about the same pace -- we
kept leapfrogging each other as one of us would stop to walk.

And so I finished. I knew I would have tears in my eyes finishing nyc, and I did, but for
completely different reasons. But I finished. I don't even think that I am upset, because I did
leave it all out (literally!) on the course.

What lessons can I learn?
1) Don't overfill your stomach.
2) My sports drink may have beeen to concentrated -- that's bad
3) Lighten up the pace a bit more in the early miles, but there's NO WAY that caused me to blow
up that soon.

As I said before, I think I can look back and see the signs that this was coming. Four weeks out I
set a PR in my half, but immediately got a cold. Never got into my chest, but I was always having
just a little bit of a trickle in my throat, even up to race week. Was I sick on race day? Don't
think so. Three weeks out, I had that disastrous 23, complete with nausea/vomiting spell
*afterwards* Two weeks out, had a rather bad 10k (40:00 -- all hills) that I just didn't feel up
for -- probably still under the weather, and didn't want to ruin my marathon. 10 days out had a
hard time with my last set of mile repeats (on a track, in 20mph winds!). But the last week felt
great. Each of these workouts, I could "excuse", but if I would have looked back (or seen the
whole picture) it probably would have pointed to predict this.

It's done, my legs feel fine, I can eat and drink all I want. I'm in for next year, and I'll
probably do it. But I think I need a break from running for a bit. I've had a sucessful season,
setting prs from the 5k to the half distance. I refuse to be classified on the basis of one
performance.

Thanks to those of you who read this. If anybody has ever had this happen to them, *please* let me
know what you think caused it, and what you would do to prevent/fix it when it happens.

--Ryan

"apusapus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Doug Freese" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Is this the tidbit of info we are to seach on to find out your real or imagined name? Save us
the trouble and include the web page.

No. Do the work or do not do the work. I couldn't care less.

You can not post anything because it does not exist like your so called children and your so called
medical practice. You are not a runner. You are a fat ass computer jockey making up stories. An fat
walter mitty with no life but trolling usenet. BAAAHAAAAAWAAAAAA.

Quoted message said:

Whilst "what's good for me must be good for you" may or may not be true, the fact remains that
(my) {falsified} evidence suggests that the current range of

You get more transparent with each chance to prove you are not a fake. God what a coward.

[email hidden] (AMH) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

If you are using a half marathon time as a predictor of your marathon result you really must run
the marathon at the same effort that you ran the half in.

"Utter rubbish!", as they say in some parts of the English- speaking world:-)

The HM in the formula "M = 2HM + 10-20min" (or simply "+ 15min" for an average sub-three hopeful)
*should* be the result of an intense HM effort, not of the test run you suggest.

Thus, a 1:24 HM does hint at a promise of a sub-3, but a more realistic prdiction would be a 3:03...

Quoted message said:

I've found my half marathon time to be a poor predictor of my marathon times because I don't run
the marathon at nearly the same effort I've run the halves in.

The "+10-20min" is there to account for that, and nothing else.

Other formulas, where M is given as a percentage (>200%) of one´s HM or where vM is given as a
percentage (<100%) of one´s vHM, take the different levels of effort into account. So does the
delightful French formula "vHM, in km/h + 1km/h = vM, in km/h".

If you´ve found that these methods of prediction result in times you couldn´t attain, it could
be that 1) you´ve had a lot of bad luck, 2) you´ve ran bad races, 3) your training hasn´t been
sufficient or suitable for you, and/ or 4) your genes and your physiology cast you too far
from the norm.

Or 5) you´ve used a formula unknown to Western science:-)

Anders

Anders Lustig said:

The HM in the formula "M = 2HM + 10-20min" (or simply "+ 15min" for an average sub-three hopeful)
*should* be the result of an intense HM effort, not of the test run you suggest.

Ah yes prediction formulas a delightful set of averages that seems to fit nobody. 🙂 The Competitive
Runner book of old suggests 2hm+10 so a 1:25 half gets you a 3 hour and a 1:23:45 a 2:57:30. Do I
believe it? Right there with the 72 or 144 virgins waiting outside my door. Take all the formulas
and place them where the sun does not shine. 🙂

Quoted message said:

If you´ve found that these methods of prediction result in times you couldn´t attain, it could be
that 1) you´ve had a lot of bad luck, 2) you´ve ran bad races, 3) your training hasn´t been
sufficient or suitable for you, and/ or 4) your genes and your physiology cast you too far from
the norm.

Or 5) you´ve used a formula unknown to Western science:-)

Or 6) there is only one formula - yours.

Quantities of each variable intuitively obvious.

--
Doug Freese "Caveat Lector" [email hidden]

"Anders Lustig" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Anders:

Quoted message said:

It doesn´t mean anything that one *feels* like one is holding back and in control: that downhill
mile was a bit mad from my own experience (I have a similar set of PBs and I´ve found that I have
a very thin margin of safety when I exceed my race pace) I´d say that your continuing at 5 seconds
ahead of your goal pace would quite probably have caused you major problems later in the race in
any case.

Yeah, truthfully I also said "uhoh" when I saw the 6:00. Nothing I could do about it at that point,
all I can say is that I continued on at the same (perceived) effort for the 6:40 mile 3. I became
less worried, but still chalked it up to a ~6:30 mile 2, which was a bit fast.

Quoted message said:

But while I fully understand your over-dramatic expression, those 6 months of hard work are still
there, only half a bucketful was spilt on the floor:-)

Heh. =)

Quoted message said:

BTW I strongly believe that 4 weeks before the place was no time to run a new HM PB, it should´ve
been the time to run a MP HM, to practise steady pacing (and possibly to check that the MP is
HR-wise in the right ballpark).

I was torn about this as well.... if it takes ~14 days to recover from the hard HM effort, this
still gives me plenty of window before the marathon. However, I *did* feel the effects of said run
much more so than a 1:26 I ran 4 weeks earlier. It really took me ~2.5 weeks before I had another
quality workout.

Quoted message said:

During the eight weeks leading to one´s goal marathon one must zoom in on the singular goal,
forget about other PBs and drop a favorite race!

Is this the difference between a race and a tuneup race? I've been reading Glover and it seems that
he suggests the opposite -- pop a couple of PRs in the later stages of training as good confidence
boosters. I would be mentally shot if I didn't have those PRs in the bag.

Quoted message said:

You´ll be a bit wiser - but it´s no guarantee against having another bad day for some other
reason:-)

Yeah, I know. That's the [censored] about marathons.

Thanks for the tips.

--Ryan

Quoted message said:

You said yourself that it could have been over-concentrated sports

drink

Quoted message said:

and that your stomach felt "too full" at 1 stage.

Boy did it. =)

Quoted message said:

Those gel-packs - do you take them with water, or is that also highly concentrated?

I do what seems to work on my training runs. ~3oz of gatorade every 15 minutes and 1 gel every 6
miles. Never bothers me. The problem was I upped the frequency of intake (and might have drunk too
much in the 3 hours at Wadsworth) -- must learn to NEVER alter from long run practice in a race.

--Ryan

Quoted message said:

Everybody will be different but the tough part about NYC is that 2 hours after you start your body
will expect lunch. You really have

to

Quoted message said:

eat a full breakfast. I learned that after my first NYC marathon.

Yeah, good tip here. Know of a breakfast joint that's open ~4:30am? I was starting to get a bit
hungry as well.

Quoted message said:

You will have to experiment with various re-fueling methods. I found that sports drink will cramp
my stomach and I've found that power

bars

Quoted message said:

work best for me. I start one at 11 miles and gradually eat it

through

Quoted message said:

22.

Bleech. *those* I can't stomach in normal life. Glad to see somebody likes them.

Quoted message said:

The other thing I swear by in marathoning is a solid foundation. I gradually build up to 13 mile
runs that I'll do once a month before I'm ready to start training. Then I'll do 15 milers and
won't stop until I achieve a goal time. I'll usually do 3 or 4 of them. Then

I'll

Quoted message said:

gradually build up my long run to 22 miles over the next 6 weeks. I

do

Quoted message said:

long runs once a week and then do a 2 week taper. If you want to run NYC better next year start
training in January.

Oh, I was trained. Probably best trained of my (short) running life. I do long runs every other week
the 2.5 months before (the off week is either a 10k race (10miles), Half race , or 15 miler)
starting at 18, then 20's, a 22 and a 23. Total of 6 18+ runs, 5 20+. This comes off a base of ~6
weeks of 35-40 miles with a 13 mile LR. This comes of a winter/spring season of 5ks to 5 milers. I
don't like to go long every weekend -- since I *do* like to get some quality speedwork in on
Wednesday, and after a long run, sometimes my legs aren't there.

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If this was your first marathon then it will take you a few tries to get it right. Experience
counts for a hell of a lot in marathons.

Second -- and I *really* wasn't ready for the first, but ended up with a time 12 minutes better than
this time! Goes to show you, when you blow up, you *really* suffer.

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Best to you and congrats on finishing.

Thanks, Andy.

--Ryan

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You went out too hard. That 5:15, 6:00, and couple of 6:40s took it

all out

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of your legs. You probably could have still thrown up and finished

under

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3:20.

If all this had occured during the later stages of the race, I would agree with you. However, that
5:15 was for 0.8 miles (missed the mile marker and caught the 10k marker instead), and the 6:00 was
entirely downhill (looking back probably at 6:30 effort). I *have* run a half averaging a 6:30 pace
(with no taper), so there's no way my body should have shut down that soon on *that effort* unless I
did something else wrong. (like eat too much)

I'll also agree with you about the sub 3:20 -- and I was thinking similar thoughts -- but it was
just in a knot from then on and was almost impossible to run. Legs were fine. Until later on when
lack of water/food got to them.

--Ryan

[email hidden] (Anders Lustig) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

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[email hidden] (AMH) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

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If you are using a half marathon time as a predictor of your marathon result you really must run
the marathon at the same effort that you ran the half in.

"Utter rubbish!", as they say in some parts of the English- speaking world:-)

The HM in the formula "M = 2HM + 10-20min" (or simply "+ 15min" for an average sub-three hopeful)
*should* be the result of an intense HM effort, not of the test run you suggest.

That is backward from my meaning. My best half marathon was an all out effort. I didn't take a step
where I wasn't breathing hard for the full 13.1 miles. Adding 7.5 minutes to that effort still has
me in a where I'm working pretty hard. I didn't mean to suggest the effort should only be a test run
of marathon pace.

I state again that if you use a half marathon as a predictor you have to use the same effort you did
in the half marathon to achieve what the half marathon predicts. Additionally you have to train with
the same effort.

Too many people run a 1:25 half and think they have a guaranteed ability to run a 3 hour marathon.

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Thus, a 1:24 HM does hint at a promise of a sub-3, but a more realistic prdiction would be
a 3:03...

I believe the original poster wanted to get 3:10 to qualify for Boston and if luck would have it run
under 3. So this is exactly what the poster hoped for.

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I've found my half marathon time to be a poor predictor of my marathon times because I don't run
the marathon at nearly the same effort I've run the halves in.

The "+10-20min" is there to account for that, and nothing else.

In my case I'm at +23 minutes.

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Other formulas, where M is given as a percentage (>200%) of one´s HM or where vM is given as a
percentage (<100%) of one´s vHM, take the different levels of effort into account. So does the
delightful French formula "vHM, in km/h + 1km/h = vM, in km/h".

I can't tell you how many times I failed math so pardon me if I don't follow you down that path.

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If you´ve found that these methods of prediction result in times you couldn´t attain, it could be
that 1) you´ve had a lot of bad luck, 2) you´ve ran bad races, 3) your training hasn´t been
sufficient or suitable for you, and/ or 4) your genes and your physiology cast you too far from
the norm.

Or 5) you´ve used a formula unknown to Western science:-)

My point is as I stated above a 1:25 half gives you the right to think about breaking 3 hours. Too
many people think of it as a guarantee.

Andy

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Anders

"Ryan Pearman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

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Everybody will be different but the tough part about NYC is that 2 hours after you start your
body will expect lunch. You really have

to

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eat a full breakfast. I learned that after my first NYC marathon.

Yeah, good tip here. Know of a breakfast joint that's open ~4:30am? I was starting to get a bit
hungry as well.

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You will have to experiment with various re-fueling methods. I found that sports drink will
cramp my stomach and I've found that power

bars

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work best for me. I start one at 11 miles and gradually eat it

through

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22.

Bleech. *those* I can't stomach in normal life. Glad to see somebody likes them.

They are staying in business so I can't imagine they are making all their profit off of
little old me.

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Oh, I was trained. Probably best trained of my (short) running life. I do long runs every other
week the 2.5 months before (the off week is either a 10k race (10miles), Half race , or 15 miler)
starting at 18, then 20's, a 22 and a 23. Total of 6 18+ runs, 5 20+. This comes off a base of ~6
weeks of 35-40 miles with a 13 mile LR. This comes of a winter/spring season of 5ks to 5 milers. I
don't like to go long every weekend -- since I *do* like to get some quality speedwork in on
Wednesday, and after a long run, sometimes my legs aren't there.

Hmm. If you aren't recovered by Wednesday then that may be a clue to refine your training. After my
marathon long runs I would be able to run a speed workout 2 days later (was in my mid 20's then so
you can factor in the age thing). You may want to investigate some post workout recovery foods or
supplements. Look up "Optimal Muscle Recovery" by Burke (can't remember his first name).

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If this was your first marathon then it will take you a few tries to get it right. Experience
counts for a hell of a lot in marathons.

Second -- and I *really* wasn't ready for the first, but ended up with a time 12 minutes better
than this time! Goes to show you, when you blow up, you *really* suffer.

My first marathon was just shy of 4 hours. I spent 3 more at 3:30 before I got to under 3.
Experience, can't run marathons without it. Experiment and keep a log this way you'll know what went
wrong and what went right.

Andy

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Best to you and congrats on finishing.

Thanks, Andy.

--Ryan