MUni Features?

unicus said:

*Has anyone actually tested this? *

Yes.

I agree with jason, unicyclepa, you are confused. The hunter frame is
decent, but there's plenty of excellent alternatives. Also, who made a
definition of "hardcore" muni? "Oh, I just landed a 3' drop, i have now
made the jump into being a hardcore muni rider. This is awesome."
Honestly, almost all of the questions asked were subjective to terrain
and rider preference. Examples: an XC rider won't neccessarily prefer a
3.0 tire due to its higher rolling resistance. There are quite a few
riders who don't like riding Hunter frames, and quite a few who do. This
generally depends on the preference over crowns. Muni's are customized
for a reason.

My ideal muni would be as follows:

-cf base (miyata)
-kinport handle with grip taper
-kinport bumper
-reused KH seatcover
-hose on side for trials
-thomson directly connected seatpost (27.2, so i can yoink others' posts
if I need to)
-brake mount attached to handle bolts
-magura raceline hydraulic rim brake with plastic main cable and steel
braided crossover
-Custom titanium frame (low profile round crown with a light nub for
grip during gliding)
-Gazz 24x3 or Intense 24x3 DH tire
-Try-all 24" rim or surly wide rim 36H
-DT butted black spokes (36 spoke wheel)
-brass nipples
-Custom tapered 48 spline aermet hub (7/8" hollow axle)
-165mm titanium cranks with a 5/8"-24 thread for pedals
-custom magnesium pedals with aermet spindles and sealed bearings

Of course I'll probably never have a muni like this because it'd cost
well over $5,000 to have made and would take forever to make for
myself.

Note: I say custom because I think that with enough work I could do
better than anything that is currently on the market. I consider most of
the choices for hubs inadaquate, and the same goes for frames, pedals,
and cranks. The current standard for pedal threads is too small, making
it a weak link. Rail adapters also seem redundant.

As for best stock muni components, I would replace the custom stuff
witht he following:

Profile hub w/ 165mm race cranks
Aletis (sp?) 24" aluminum muni frame
Azonic A-frame pedals

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I'm not sure if I can agree with that either. The suspension shouldn't
be compressing while your pedaling, it's meant for drops, jumps, and
might compress a little over a bump, but usually wont. On a drop or a
jump, your not pedaling, so they should compress evenly, right?

e39m5

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No, when you drop there's a ton of side forces involved, so if I land
right foot back I will be putting more force on the left side shock. And
forks aren't meant to take the twisting forces involved with such
actions as hard uphill pedalling. Not to mention a constantly changing
distance between your pedals and the saddle is bad for your knees.

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e39m5 said:

*I'm not sure if I can agree with that either. The suspension
shouldn't be compressing while your pedaling, it's meant for drops,
jumps, and might compress a little over a bump, but usually wont. On
a drop or a jump, your not pedaling, so they should compress evenly,
right?

e39m5 *

There are a lot of flop forces when you pedal. Think about why an
ultimate wheel flops side to side as you ride it. Those same forces are
on a standard unicycle wheel, but since it is held in place by the frame
it doesn't flop. Those flop forces from just normal riding will cause
one leg of the fork to compress while the other leg extends. Then vise
versa on the other half pedal revolution. When climbing and descending
these flop forces will be stronger. When standing up out of the saddle
these flop forces will be stronger.

If you stick a muni wheel in a standard MTB suspension fork you'll end
up with the wheel wanting to flop back and forth. That will cause
stiction in the fork. It will put a lot of extra force on the bridge
that connects the two suspension legs. The fork would need to be
seriously overbuilt to keep the wheel from flopping. It's not a design
that will work and be practical.

When landing a drop you put uneven forces on the pedals. That also
causes the wheel to want to flop over to one side. Think of trying to
land a drop with an ultimate wheel and keep the wheel perfectly centered
without flopping over. The wheel naturally wants to flop to one side
due to the forces involved. You can't avoid it.

The only practical suspension design is one that suspends the saddle
like a seatpost suspension. Putting the suspension in the fork legs
won't work.

Creative Geckos made an interesting 'single pivot suspension frame'
(http://www.creativegeckos.com/pages/suspension-frames.htm). That's a
beefed up seatpost suspension. Unfortunately Creative Geckos is no
longer making frames. But that's the style of suspension you should be
thinking about rather than the MTB fork style suspension.

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wow. Thanks for the long reply. I learned quite a bit about unicycle
forces today 🙂 I guess seatpost suspension is the way to go if youre
doing it. I have seen creative geckos designs, their sweeet.
Is there anything youve always wants on your MUni that isn't made?

Thanks for everyones replys,
e39m5

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e39m5 said:

*
Is there anything youve always wants on your MUni that isn't made?
*

A pop machine.

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e39m5 said:

*Is there anything youve always wants on your MUni that isn't made? *

Stronger, lighter, and more durable. I want all of that.
Gazzaloddi 24x3 now that they are no longer made

Muni cranks that can adjust in length quickly and easily while still
being strong and light.

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john_childs said:

There are a lot of flop forces when you pedal. Think about why an
ultimate wheel flops side to side as you ride it. Those same forces are
on a standard unicycle wheel, but since it is held in place by the frame
it doesn't flop.

This is not entirely accurate. When riding an UW you have no weight on
the seat by definition. On a standard unicycle, most of your weight is
on the seat and that leads to a much more symmetrical load on the fork
legs.

Hey, a suspension fork would be a bad idea on an ultimate wheel :-)

Klaas Bil - Newsgroup Addict
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Replying to my question *"Has anyone actually tested this?"* in relation
to suspension forks on a uni.

gerblefranklin said:

*Yes.*

Any details? Who, what, where, when, why?

John - I get what you're saying about the twisting forces but I can't
see that they would be so great. The MTB suspension fork design that
comes to my mind when thinking about this (its buried somewhere behind
my shed) is braced quite strongly to prevent twisting and uneven
compression. Also all of the twisting forces must travel through the
bearings and bearing holders to reach the frame and they aren't that
strong.

I'm interested in some real world experiences of suspension forked
unicycles, I may just have to make one to test if there's not much info
(and thus putting an old MTB fork to good use). It'd be fun even if it's
not practical.

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what about 'this' (http://tinyurl.com/dnqpy)

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unicyclepa said:

*what about 'this' (http://tinyurl.com/dnqpy) *

its been done and posted about at least ten times before.

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unicus said:

*Replying to my question "Has anyone actually tested this?"* in
relation to suspension forks on a uni.

Any details? Who, what, where, when, why?

John - I get what you're saying about the twisting forces but I can't
see that they would be so great. The MTB suspension fork design that
comes to my mind when thinking about this (its buried somewhere behind
my shed) is braced quite strongly to prevent twisting and uneven
compression. Also all of the twisting forces must travel through the
bearings and bearing holders to reach the frame and they aren't that
strong.

I'm interested in some real world experiences of suspension forked
unicycles, I may just have to make one to test if there's not much
info (and thus putting an old MTB fork to good use). It'd be fun even
if it's not practical.

Daniel Hopkins experimented with various suspension unicycle designs
back in the late 90's when muni was in its early years. He was at the
early CA Muni Weekends but I haven't seen him since.

He made one muni from a standard Rock Shox MTB suspension fork and one
from a Cannondale HeadShock. I talked to Daniel about his Rock Shox
MUni and he said it had problems with the wheel wanting to flop side to
side. That's when I got clued in to the fact that a standard MTB
suspension fork wouldn't work well on a MUni. His next suspension MUni
design was based on the Cannondale HeadShock which has all of the
suspension in the neck. It was basically a seatpost shock when used on
the MUni. That MUni worked better, but it used a really skinny Spinergy
wheel and had problems with the tire folding over.

Daniel's Suspension MUni web page is no longer on the web, but they are
still in the 'Wayback Machine' (http://www.archive.org/).

'Suspension MUni archive 1' (http://tinyurl.com/ams4o)
'Suspension MUni archive 2' (http://tinyurl.com/8ugcm)

It's a little difficult to navigate the archived sites because the
navigation links are JavaScript images that change when the mouse moves
over them. That kind of stuff doesn't work in the Wayback archives.
Just click on the navigation links at the top of the page and you'll be
able to navigate around even if you can't see where you're going.

These suspension unicycles are from the old days of muni when everyone
was using XC style tires and wheels. We hadn't discovered the fat 3"
Gazz yet. We were using the technology and mindset of XC mountain bikes
rather than the DH and freeride bikes. It was a different world back
then.

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john_childs said:

*Daniel Hopkins experimented with various suspension unicycle designs
back in the late 90's when muni was in its early years. ....*

Thanks for that info and links John, the Wayback Machine is very handy
when sites disappear.

It's hard to tell from the photos but the Rock Shox MUni appears to be a
26" fork with a 24" wheel and the cross brace (or whatever it's called)
doesn't seem that sturdy although the whole MUni does look kinder cool.
I've dug out the suspension fork I've got and it's a 24" Tamika (whoever
they are?) still with the brake attached so if I can sort out some
bearing holders to fit to it (and if I have the time) I'm going to put
together a suspension MUni for the fun of it and 'cause it'll look good.

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I have a 24" Onza with Magura HS33s, so thats a pretty good uni as is,
but I've just started on my ultimate Muni now, most of the parts are on
the way... Here's the list:

Custom Built GB4 3.7" Tyre 26" Rim Compatible Frame - £110(excl
shipping)
Surly Large Marge 26" Rim (36 Spoke) DH - £75(with shipping)
Nokian Gazz 26"x3.0" - £30
Custom Onza/KH Splined Hub with Cranks - £130 (approx)
Alu Alloy 25.4mm Seatpost - £10
UDC Gel Saddle - £27
DMR V12 Pedals - £40
Try-all Brake Bar Attachment - £7

Thats the basic spec, without extras like spokes, rim tape etc. In all
comes to about £450. Quite a lot better than your average top of the
range Mountain B*ke. Also I'm going to upgrade to the Endomorph when its
released in July, hence the compatible frame & rim. I'll also wait until
then to get a Magura HS33 fitted.

Loose.

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unicus said:

* I'm going to put together a suspension MUni for the fun of it and
'cause it'll look good. *

true. it will look good to everyone that doesnt know about how much a
sup fork sucks for muni. while your carring it around town your sure to
be a star.

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jagur said:

*true. it will look good to everyone that doesnt know about how much a
sup fork sucks for muni. while your carring it around town your sure
to be a star. *

If it does end up sucking for MUni it'll be my son getting pose value
around town not me. Anyway who says a unicycle has to be practical? (I
know that's the jist of this thread so I'll move on)

No one seems to have mentioned the 'ISIS Koxx-One hub'
(http://tinyurl.com/bgkub) , that's the one I'd go for in my ultimate
MUni.

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Buy a Kh 24" 2005 or Onza 24" 2005, buy a Magura HS33 single brake kit,
job done.

I would add: a Duro tire (I like them more than a Gaz), a Scott Wallis
CB air seat, and the new bored out Shinburger pedals. then you're good
to go anywhere.

JL

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unicus said:

*No one seems to have mentioned the 'ISIS Koxx-One hub'
(http://tinyurl.com/bgkub) , that's the one I'd go for in my ultimate
MUni. *

I knew about the Isis/Koxx hub/crankset. I'd still use profile. Aluminum
cranks+pedalgrabs on sharp rocks=trashed crank. My old muni had monty
158s. Everything that hit them on the trail would leave a mark.

John answered your question for me. Thanks John.

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unicus said:

*Thanks for that info and links John, the Wayback Machine is very
handy when sites disappear.

It's hard to tell from the photos but the Rock Shox MUni appears to be
a 26" fork with a 24" wheel and the cross brace (or whatever it's
called) doesn't seem that sturdy although the whole MUni does look
kinder cool. I've dug out the suspension fork I've got and it's a 24"
Tamika (whoever they are?) still with the brake attached so if I can
sort out some bearing holders to fit to it (and if I have the time)
I'm going to put together a suspension MUni for the fun of it and
'cause it'll look good. *

I call that stiffener piece on a suspension fork a cross brace or a
bridge. I don't know what the proper term for it is. On XC forks that
cross brace is too wimpy for the abuse it will get when used as a muni
fork. That's one bit that should be beefed up to stiffen the fork and
get both legs to act more in unison.

Some older forks use a removable bolt on cross brace. The newer forks
have the cross brace molded in as one piece because that saves weight.
If you have a fork with a removable cross brace you could replace it
with a custom made stronger stiffer one. The stiffer and stronger you
can make the cross brace the better the muni will work.

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unicus said:

*No one seems to have mentioned the 'ISIS Koxx-One hub'
(http://tinyurl.com/bgkub) , that's the one I'd go for in my ultimate
MUni. *

I don't consider the Koxx-One hub to be the ultimate.

It uses a non-standard bearing size. That could get to be very
inconvenient when it gets time to replace the bearings. The only source
for the bearings would be Koxx-One.

It uses steel flanges. Steel flanges are not as spoke friendly as
aluminum flanges. Aluminum is softer and the spoke holes will deform a
bit to better support the shoulder of the spoke. The spoke holes in a
steel flange will not deform at all and will concentrate forces at the
spoke shoulder. It's the difference between a sharp point and a blunt
point. You can tension up the spokes more tightly with an aluminum
flange than you can with a steel flange. With the steel flange you're
going to have more problems with broken spokes (the spokes will break
right at the spoke shoulder).

It's a nice hub, but not the ultimate design yet.

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