Moving from Campagnolo 9spd to 10spd

Martin O'Loughlin said:

After some advice, i am running a mix of Centaur, Veloce and Chorus,
all 9spd, and pretty much all dead. So it makes some sense to move to
10spd now.

What makes you think 9 spd is "pretty much all dead?" Consumables like
cassettes, chains and even chainrings are readily available. You can
still get Campy Mirage/Veloce 9 speed cassettes and Miche has just came
out with a line of steel cassettes in both 9 and 10 speed. Both sell
for around $50 or less! Moreover, 9 speed chains are available from
just about any source you can imagine. So it might NOT make sense to
change to 10spd now....

Quoted message said:

I think there is some life in the rear mech, can this be used on a
10spd drivetrain? and the chainset is fitted with TA horus rings that
might have a few more miles in them, would these be ok for a while?

Yes, but you should not have any problem using your existing rear mech
AND chainset. At the minimum give it a try before forking out money for
things you may not need.

Quoted message said:

Finally, as this bike is primarily my commuter i don't want to spend a
fortune, but it is a 15mile ride to work, so i need something that can
take a good few miles with little maintenance.

This doesn't make any sense at all. You're planning on using this bike
as your "primary commuter," you only ride "15miles to work" and you
need something with "little maintenance." IF what you have works, why
change it?

Quoted message said:

What would i loose by going with Mirage rather than centaur or even
veloce, weight is not of much importance, merely durability. Is there
much difference between the ergos and rear mechs?

No. In fact, if you currently have Campy 9 ergo levers now, you don't
need to buy new ones. One advantage of Campy ergo levers is its
rebuildable. That includes REPLACING the 9 speed cog with a 10 speed
one to make your ergo lever 10 speed. Its not that difficult, but if
you can't figure it out, there are several shops here that can do it.

For example, if you really *need* to change your ergo 9 lever to 10
spd, and can't do it, send it to Peter Chisholm. He is arguably one of
the most knowledgeable person on this forum about all-things Campy and
can easily replace the parts you need to convert it. Further, he has
all the small parts necessary and is not outrageously priced. In fact,
it would be ALOT cheaper than buying new levers.

For more on Peter, check out: www.vecchios.com

bfd said:

Martin O'Loughlin said:

After some advice, i am running a mix of Centaur, Veloce and Chorus,
all 9spd, and pretty much all dead. So it makes some sense to move to
10spd now.

What makes you think 9 spd is "pretty much all dead?" Consumables like
cassettes, chains and even chainrings are readily available. You can
still get Campy Mirage/Veloce 9 speed cassettes and Miche has just came
out with a line of steel cassettes in both 9 and 10 speed. Both sell
for around $50 or less! Moreover, 9 speed chains are available from
just about any source you can imagine. So it might NOT make sense to
change to 10spd now....

My reasoning, shifters don't shift very well even with new cables so
need a major over-haul, they have done 25k+ miles so not to bad. new
shifters are going to be less than the cost of hoods, cables and spare
parts, if i get the lower end shifters, current on Centaur.

Cassette and chain are also shot, chainrings well on the way.

Sticking with nine speed might be more sensible than going to 10, but
have no idea about durability, but suspect that nine speed spares will
get rarer in a few years as 10 seems to be where things are going.

I think there is some life in the rear mech, can this be used on a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

10spd drivetrain? and the chainset is fitted with TA horus rings that
might have a few more miles in them, would these be ok for a while?

Yes, but you should not have any problem using your existing rear mech

AND chainset. At the minimum give it a try before forking out money for
things you may not need.

This is a case of reading somewhere that 9 and 10 mechs weren't
compatible, didn't believe it but was after some confirmation.

Finally, as this bike is primarily my commuter i don't want to spend a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

fortune, but it is a 15mile ride to work, so i need something that can
take a good few miles with little maintenance.

This doesn't make any sense at all. You're planning on using this bike

as your "primary commuter," you only ride "15miles to work" and you
need something with "little maintenance." IF what you have works, why
change it?

It sort of works now, double shifting is pretty much the only way to
get the mech to move. Been happy with what i have but it does need a
major overhaul now.

Regards

Martin O'Loughlin said:

bfd said:

Martin O'Loughlin said:

After some advice, i am running a mix of Centaur, Veloce and Chorus,
all 9spd, and pretty much all dead. So it makes some sense to move to
10spd now.

What makes you think 9 spd is "pretty much all dead?" Consumables like
cassettes, chains and even chainrings are readily available. You can
still get Campy Mirage/Veloce 9 speed cassettes and Miche has just came
out with a line of steel cassettes in both 9 and 10 speed. Both sell
for around $50 or less! Moreover, 9 speed chains are available from
just about any source you can imagine. So it might NOT make sense to
change to 10spd now....

My reasoning, shifters don't shift very well even with new cables so
need a major over-haul, they have done 25k+ miles so not to bad. new
shifters are going to be less than the cost of hoods, cables and spare
parts, if i get the lower end shifters, current on Centaur.

A major overhaul of the Ergo shifters is merely degreasing the insides
so they are clean and not gummed up. And replacing the two G springs,
$5 each. And checking if the spring carrier piece is broken or not.
If broken then it is $12. All parts available from Vecchios in
Boulder. New hodds are about $30 if you need them. Electrical tape
works well and it comes in black. You already have new cables
according to your statement above. Otherwise they would be $35
including brake cables. Cables and housings. Of course Mirage 9
speed Ergo can be had from $50 in England. Plus shipping. 10 speed
Ergo Veloce is about $85 plus shipping from Ribble Cycles, in England.

Quoted message said:

Cassette and chain are also shot, chainrings well on the way.

Any 9 speed chain will work fine. Except the Nashbar KMC 9 speed
chain. It stinks. But any Shimano or SRAM 9 speed chain bought cheap
will work fine. Does not have to be Campagnolo 9 speed chain.
Cassettes are $20 for 9 speed Campagnolo Mirage from England. And
check ProBikeKit and 11Speed. 11Speed is in Italy and are really
cheap. They have Mirage 9 speed cassettes. Chainrings are available
from Nashbar for the 135mm bcd. $17 for the 39 and $30 for the 53.
Before 10% off coupons and free shipping codes.

Quoted message said:

Sticking with nine speed might be more sensible than going to 10, but
have no idea about durability, but suspect that nine speed spares will
get rarer in a few years as 10 seems to be where things are going.

Other than chain and cassette, all of the parts are interchangeable
between 9 and 10 speed Campagnolo. You would need a different shift
disc in the right Ergo. Otherwise there is no concern about spare
parts being rare.

Quoted message said:

I think there is some life in the rear mech, can this be used on a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

10spd drivetrain? and the chainset is fitted with TA horus rings that
might have a few more miles in them, would these be ok for a while?

Yes, but you should not have any problem using your existing rear mech

AND chainset. At the minimum give it a try before forking out money for
things you may not need.

This is a case of reading somewhere that 9 and 10 mechs weren't
compatible, didn't believe it but was after some confirmation.

I run 10 speed rear derailleur on a 9 speed Ergo. And 9 speed rear
derailleur on a 10 speed Ergo.

Quoted message said:

Finally, as this bike is primarily my commuter i don't want to spend a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

fortune, but it is a 15mile ride to work, so i need something that can
take a good few miles with little maintenance.

This doesn't make any sense at all. You're planning on using this bike

as your "primary commuter," you only ride "15miles to work" and you
need something with "little maintenance." IF what you have works, why
change it?

It sort of works now, double shifting is pretty much the only way to
get the mech to move. Been happy with what i have but it does need a
major overhaul now.

Yep, sounds like you need to clean and replace a few small cheap parts
in the Ergo.

Quoted message said:

Regards

On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 19:06:09 GMT, Martin O'Loughlin <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

After some advice, i am running a mix of Centaur, Veloce and Chorus,
all 9spd, and pretty much all dead. So it makes some sense to move to
10spd now.

I think there is some life in the rear mech, can this be used on a
10spd drivetrain? and the chainset is fitted with TA horus rings that
might have a few more miles in them, would these be ok for a while?

The mech will work for ten speed as well.

Quoted message said:

Finally, as this bike is primarily my commuter i don't want to spend a
fortune, but it is a 15mile ride to work, so i need something that can
take a good few miles with little maintenance.

What would i loose by going with Mirage rather than centaur or even
veloce, weight is not of much importance, merely durability. Is there
much difference between the ergos and rear mechs?

I'm very much liking Mirage. They don't have the slickness and style of the
upper groups but they function beautifully. Sorta like the difference between a
target pistol and a Glock. Nothing sleek and sexy about them but rugged and
reliable. The Mirage Ergos up to 2006 all work on the same principles and
similar parts to the upper groups. I know they're changing things for 2007 and
don't know how that will work out.

IMO the 9 speed stuff will be around for at least the next few years, so that if
you don't want to go 10 yet you can replace parts with 9v and not be wasting
money.

Ron

Martin O'Loughlin said:

bfd said:

Martin O'Loughlin said:

After some advice, i am running a mix of Centaur, Veloce and Chorus,
all 9spd, and pretty much all dead. So it makes some sense to move to
10spd now.

What makes you think 9 spd is "pretty much all dead?"

I think the OP meant that his stuff was worn out.

Quoted message said:

My reasoning, shifters don't shift very well even with new cables so
need a major over-haul, they have done 25k+ miles so not to bad. new
shifters are going to be less than the cost of hoods, cables and spare
parts, if i get the lower end shifters, current on Centaur.

Well, maybe, maybe not. New hoods are maybe $40, cables are 10-ish, but
you'd need them anyway. If your shifters are roundy-topped rather than
pointy-topped, they can be converted to 10-speed for the cost of a
shift-disk ($40). New levers, more like $150-$200.

Quoted message said:

Sticking with nine speed might be more sensible than going to 10, but
have no idea about durability,

Well, actually, you do. How long have you had your current set-up?

Quoted message said:

t suspect that nine speed spares will
get rarer in a few years as 10 seems to be where things are going.

In a few years, yes. I would say that 8-speed is past that point now, but
9-speed is still the best bargain.

Quoted message said:

I think there is some life in the rear mech, can this be used on a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

10spd drivetrain?

Yes

and the chainset is fitted with TA horus rings that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

might have a few more miles in them, would these be ok for a while?

yes

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This is a case of reading somewhere that 9 and 10 mechs weren't
compatible, didn't believe it but was after some confirmation.

So, try changing to 10-speed, and if you find it not compatible with your
shifter or chainrings, let us know. To date, no one has said that,
though many have made the conversion.

Quoted message said:

Finally, as this bike is primarily my commuter i don't want to spend a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

fortune, but it is a 15mile ride to work, so i need something that can
take a good few miles with little maintenance.

It's far from clear that going to 10speed will lessen maintenance issues.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Let's be straight here. If we find something we can't
_`\(,_ | understand we like to call it something you can't understand, or
(_)/ (_) | indeed even pronounce. -- Douglas Adams

"David L. Johnson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Martin O'Loughlin said:

Quoted message said:

Finally, as this bike is primarily my commuter i don't want to spend a
> fortune, but it is a 15mile ride to work, so i need something that can
> take a good few miles with little maintenance.

It's far from clear that going to 10speed will lessen maintenance issues.

Agree, 9 or 10spd will have the same "maintenance issues, i.e., consumables
like chains, cassettes and perhaps chainrings will at some point need
changing. What the OP does NOT consider is that 10spd consumables are going
to cost him alot more than 9spd. For example, try finding a 10spd chain
under $30 or 10 spd cassette under $50 (alot more if he insist on Campy
parts). For now, 9spd consumables are still fairly reasonable.

Martin O'Loughlin said:

After some advice, i am running a mix of Centaur, Veloce and Chorus,
all 9spd, and pretty much all dead. So it makes some sense to move to
10spd now.

I think there is some life in the rear mech, can this be used on a
10spd drivetrain? and the chainset is fitted with TA horus rings that
might have a few more miles in them, would these be ok for a while?

Finally, as this bike is primarily my commuter i don't want to spend a
fortune, but it is a 15mile ride to work, so i need something that can
take a good few miles with little maintenance.

What would i loose by going with Mirage rather than centaur or even
veloce, weight is not of much importance, merely durability. Is there
much difference between the ergos and rear mechs?

Thanks

Convert the right lever, as long as it's not a 1998 model...use all the
rest, put on a 10s cogset and chain(vleoce is my choice)..if the rear
der has some life, it'll work fine. Campag differs by materials, not
basic design, of most of their stuff...

Martin O'Loughlin wrote:

(snipped, joined posts):

Quoted message said:

My reasoning, shifters don't shift very well even with new cables so
need a major over-haul, they have done 25k+ miles so not to bad. new
shifters are going to be less than the cost of hoods, cables and spare
parts, if i get the lower end shifters, current on Centaur.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It sort of works now, double shifting is pretty much the only way to
get the mech to move. Been happy with what i have but it does need a
major overhaul now.

Let me ask, please... do you have another bike or bikes? If so, what
components are present?
--D-y

Martin O'Loughlin wrote:

(snipped, joined posts):

Quoted message said:

My reasoning, shifters don't shift very well even with new cables so
need a major over-haul, they have done 25k+ miles so not to bad. new
shifters are going to be less than the cost of hoods, cables and spare
parts, if i get the lower end shifters, current on Centaur.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It sort of works now, double shifting is pretty much the only way to
get the mech to move. Been happy with what i have but it does need a
major overhaul now.

Let me ask, please... do you have another bike or bikes? If so, what
components are present?
--D-y

Quoted message said:

Martin O'Loughlin wrote:

(snipped, joined posts):

Quoted message said:

My reasoning, shifters don't shift very well even with new cables so
need a major over-haul, they have done 25k+ miles so not to bad. new
shifters are going to be less than the cost of hoods, cables and spare
parts, if i get the lower end shifters, current on Centaur.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It sort of works now, double shifting is pretty much the only way to
get the mech to move. Been happy with what i have but it does need a
major overhaul now.

Let me ask, please... do you have another bike or bikes? If so, what
components are present?
--D-y

The other bikes are all Mountain Bikes.

Martin

David L. Johnson said:

Martin O'Loughlin said:

bfd said:

>

Sticking with nine speed might be more sensible than going to 10, but
have no idea about durability,

Well, actually, you do. How long have you had your current set-up?

I have been running the basic drivetrain for 5-6 years, chainrings,
Chains, cassettes cables all get replaced resonably regularly.

I know how durable the 9spd stuff is, but 10??? narrower chain,
narrower sprockets, same loads less area, which would suggest 10 is
less durable but i don't have any knowledge of this.

Regards

Quoted message said:

Martin O'Loughlin said:

bfd said:

> A major overhaul of the Ergo shifters is merely degreasing the insides

so they are clean and not gummed up. And replacing the two G springs,
$5 each. And checking if the spring carrier piece is broken or not.
If broken then it is $12. All parts available from Vecchios in
Boulder. New hodds are about $30 if you need them. Electrical tape
works well and it comes in black. You already have new cables
according to your statement above. Otherwise they would be $35
including brake cables. Cables and housings. Of course Mirage 9
speed Ergo can be had from $50 in England. Plus shipping. 10 speed
Ergo Veloce is about $85 plus shipping from Ribble Cycles, in England.

This is part of my problem, Currently i have Centaur ergos, they need
new hoods, 15UKP, the new cables were new, they aren't anymore, so
15UKP, shift spares probably 5UKP if i can get them, so that is 35UKP
and that assumes nothing else is wrong. Or i can buy a brand new set of
Mirage for 50UKP which i assume have gained a little bit of trickle
down over the last few years so probably aren't that different from my
old shifter anyway.

And because so much of my drivechain is past it, if i make the move it
is now. I have no real issues with 9spd, just a concern over if i buy
9spd now, will i be able to get spares in 3-4 years time? As i said
this is a commuting bike and i don't intend to ditch it for a while.

Regards

Martin O'Loughlin said:

I know how durable the 9spd stuff is, but 10??? narrower chain,
narrower sprockets, same loads less area,

Is this true that there is less area for loading? The overall width
of the chain is narrower, but are the sprockets themselves narrower?
And even if they are, it seems that for the sprockets the fact that
there are more of them would result in the load being spread around
more.

--
JT
****************************
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Visit http://www.jt10000.com
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Martin O'Loughlin said:

Quoted message said:

Martin O'Loughlin said:

On 2006-09-19 20:58:22 +0100, "bfd" <[email hidden]> said:

>> A major overhaul of the Ergo shifters is merely degreasing the insides

so they are clean and not gummed up. And replacing the two G springs,
$5 each. And checking if the spring carrier piece is broken or not.
If broken then it is $12. All parts available from Vecchios in
Boulder. New hodds are about $30 if you need them. Electrical tape
works well and it comes in black. You already have new cables
according to your statement above. Otherwise they would be $35
including brake cables. Cables and housings. Of course Mirage 9
speed Ergo can be had from $50 in England. Plus shipping. 10 speed
Ergo Veloce is about $85 plus shipping from Ribble Cycles, in England.

This is part of my problem, Currently i have Centaur ergos, they need
new hoods, 15UKP, the new cables were new, they aren't anymore, so
15UKP, shift spares probably 5UKP if i can get them, so that is 35UKP
and that assumes nothing else is wrong. Or i can buy a brand new set of
Mirage for 50UKP which i assume have gained a little bit of trickle
down over the last few years so probably aren't that different from my
old shifter anyway.

The <2007 Mirage is almost all polymer resin cast with internal steel bits. IINM
your Centaur were mainly aluminum on a polymer body. It's Campy so it's all the
same technology, just differences in materials and niceness of finish. I use
Mirage on my Cross bike and consider it one of the great bargains I've had on a
NIB bike part. The rear der is a fairly hefty object, but not awful. So far it's
held up to eating all the grass, mud and spanish moss I've fed it.

Quoted message said:

And because so much of my drivechain is past it, if i make the move it
is now. I have no real issues with 9spd, just a concern over if i buy
9spd now, will i be able to get spares in 3-4 years time? As i said
this is a commuting bike and i don't intend to ditch it for a while.

My prediction is 9v will be around for at least another five years.

Ron

Martin O'Loughlin said:

David L. Johnson said:

Martin O'Loughlin said:

On 2006-09-19 20:58:22 +0100, "bfd" <[email hidden]> said:

> >
Sticking with nine speed might be more sensible than going to 10, but
have no idea about durability,

Well, actually, you do. How long have you had your current set-up?

I have been running the basic drivetrain for 5-6 years, chainrings,
Chains, cassettes cables all get replaced resonably regularly.

I know how durable the 9spd stuff is, but 10??? narrower chain,
narrower sprockets, same loads less area, which would suggest 10 is
less durable but i don't have any knowledge of this.

From what I've seen, the only people to report any significant reliability
difference ride cyclocross where the size of parts relative to standard
viscosities of mud and assorted trail chunks is important. This seems to be
reflected in mountain bike practice where none of the manufacturers have gone to
10s. In road use there doesn't seem to be a serious difference except the cost
to replace parts.

Ron

Martin O'Loughlin said:

Quoted message said:

Martin O'Loughlin said:

On 2006-09-19 20:58:22 +0100, "bfd" <[email hidden]> said:

>> A major overhaul of the Ergo shifters is merely degreasing the insides

so they are clean and not gummed up. And replacing the two G springs,
$5 each. And checking if the spring carrier piece is broken or not.
If broken then it is $12. All parts available from Vecchios in
Boulder. New hodds are about $30 if you need them. Electrical tape
works well and it comes in black. You already have new cables
according to your statement above. Otherwise they would be $35
including brake cables. Cables and housings. Of course Mirage 9
speed Ergo can be had from $50 in England. Plus shipping. 10 speed
Ergo Veloce is about $85 plus shipping from Ribble Cycles, in England.

This is part of my problem, Currently i have Centaur ergos, they need
new hoods, 15UKP, the new cables were new, they aren't anymore, so
15UKP, shift spares probably 5UKP if i can get them, so that is 35UKP
and that assumes nothing else is wrong. Or i can buy a brand new set of
Mirage for 50UKP which i assume have gained a little bit of trickle
down over the last few years so probably aren't that different from my
old shifter anyway.

I agree sometimes its not much more to buy a complete new part than to
buy the worn replacement pieces. But I'd still prefer refurbished
Centaur Ergo levers over new Mirage Ergo. Or you could buy the new
Mirage levers, then use the cables and hoods from the Mirage on the
Centaur levers and keep the Mirage as spares in case you crash and need
a new lever or parts. It would only be another 20 Pounds to have the
spare Mirage levers. Not too much. Mirage and Centaur Ergo are pretty
similar in 2006 and before.

Quoted message said:

And because so much of my drivechain is past it, if i make the move it
is now. I have no real issues with 9spd, just a concern over if i buy
9spd now, will i be able to get spares in 3-4 years time? As i said
this is a commuting bike and i don't intend to ditch it for a while.

There is no risk of 9 speed Campagnolo disappearing anytime soon. You
can still buy brand new 8 speed Campagnolo cassettes and Campagnolo has
not had an 8 speed set for about 10 years now. The cassette and
internal shift disk in the right Ergo are the only unique spare parts
between 9 or 10 speed that you need to worry about. Any 9 speed chain
will work so whether Campagnolo makes one or not is immaterial. Any
Campagnolo rear derailleur will work.

Quoted message said:

Regards

Martin O'Loughlin said:

David L. Johnson said:

Martin O'Loughlin said:

On 2006-09-19 20:58:22 +0100, "bfd" <[email hidden]> said:

> >
Sticking with nine speed might be more sensible than going to 10, but
have no idea about durability,

Well, actually, you do. How long have you had your current set-up?

I have been running the basic drivetrain for 5-6 years, chainrings,
Chains, cassettes cables all get replaced resonably regularly.

I know how durable the 9spd stuff is, but 10??? narrower chain,

Outer plates on 10 speed chain are thinner than on 9 speed chain.
Roller width, which bears on the cassette teeth, are the same width.
Thinner outer plates may cause less durability but outer paltes on
chains are not the parts that wear so most likely a non issue. Just an
imagined one.

Quoted message said:

narrower sprockets,

NO. Sprockets on 9 and 10 speed Campagnolo cassettes are the same
width. You can intercahnge them at random except for the very first
and very last cogs. Try it. Only the spacers in between the cogs are
narrower. Spacers are not really a wear item. Another made up
imaginary problem.

Quoted message said:

same loads less area,

NO. Same bearing area between 9 and 10 speed since the cassette cog
thickness is the same and the rollers on the chain are the same width.

Quoted message said:

which would suggest 10 is
less durable

NO.

Quoted message said:

but i don't have any knowledge of this.

YES.

Quoted message said:

Regards

Martin O'Loughlin said:

The other bikes are all Mountain Bikes.

Well, you won't need to swap wheels back and forth <g>, which makes the
choice to upgrade or not easier in one regard.

I'd imagine that even with the changes at Campy, small parts for the
current style brifters and 9sp cassettes, tapered-square BB's, etc.,
will be available for a good long while, similar to 8sp., although
apparently shift discs for 8sp Campy brifters are fading away...

However, the future being uncertain: If you do some looking, you'll
find (for instance) Veloce loose-cog cassettes in 9sp pretty cheap.
Chains, no problem. So, if you bought a few spares in the near future,
you'd be set for the duration, as they say.

If you were racing or riding in competitive groups, the extra cog
(compared to 9sp) could be real handy, but for commuting? IMHO, why
bother? You have stuff that's been working, it's just time for some
well-deserved TLC from your description. --D-y

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Martin O'Loughlin said:

I know how durable the 9spd stuff is, but 10??? narrower chain,
narrower sprockets, same loads less area,

Is this true that there is less area for loading? The overall width
of the chain is narrower, but are the sprockets themselves narrower?
And even if they are, it seems that for the sprockets the fact that
there are more of them would result in the load being spread around
more.

Maybe, but in my experience everyone seems to have one or two gears they
use a lot more than the others. Naturally these will wear quicker if
the sprockets are thinner. Now that sprockets aren't available
individually and cassettes are so expensive, well...

Matt O.