Monotubes vs Triangulation

Edward Dolan wrote:

[nothing]

Finally, a post by Mr. Dolan that I can agree with completely. 😉

--
Tom Sherman – Quad Cities (Illinois Side)

nogoslow said:

...
I love the speed of bents but socially in the midwest we need a little
catch up to take place with the realities of bicycle performance.
Bents are way faster (like the Aero or a Eruro lowracer) but the DF
mentality will stay forever....

What is your social agenda?

Many upright riders can look at a bike such as the Bacchetta Aero and at
least grudgingly accept it on the basis of "this is what a
Litespeed/Merlin/Colnago/etc. recumbent would look like if they built one".

A lowracer on the other hand is rather alien in concept to the upright
rider and provokes reactions of shock and disbelief (especially if it
has small wheels, a front wheel mono-strut, and dual chain system with a
step-up jackshaft [1]).

Quoted message said:

And Tom is a cool guy too with some good points but would like to see
just bent posts on this site to escape from the awful realties of life....

Again, I must mention that I have not initiated any of the OT political
discussions. I limit myself to only starting silly OT threads.

[1] You really didn't think I would pass up an opportunity to mention my
Sunset, did you? 😉

--
Tom Sherman – Quad Cities (Illinois Side)

"nogoslow" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
[...]

Quoted message said:

My brothers son is in Iraq in the worst fighting you could imagine in
the marine corp Ed so I hope you will cut me some slack for worry.
And Tom is a cool guy too with some good points but would like to see
just bent posts on this site to escape from the awful realties of life
guy's.
The worry of this war has just got me down. And my family worries
about our Marine each day. I just can't help it Ed. It is real up
close and personal for me.
Well, back to bents and away from the war.....

Kevin, the US has had to carry a heavy burden in the world ever since WWII.
This burden has impacted us all in our lifetimes in one way or another. I
get so mad at the Europeans for not picking up their fair share of the
burden, but I suppose it is just human nature to let the other guy do it if
you can get away with it. If the war does not improve soon Bush is going to
be in trouble as the American people are not long suffering anymore. In a
sense we are not too different from the Europeans.

But this war has been thrust upon us and there is no escaping it. We will
either fight it overseas or we will fight it here in the homeland. There is
no more fervent supporter of our military than me. Your nephew is doing the
work of the just and he is on the side of the angels. Let us hope for the
best. The war will have to be prosecuted with vigor until the Islamic
extremists are defeated and have been wiped off the face of the earth. I am
afraid it may take a generation or more to accomplish this. So we had all
best cultivate the virtue of patience.

--
Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Edward Dolan wrote:

[nothing]

Finally, a post by Mr. Dolan that I can agree with completely. 😉

I still haven't quite got the hang of how my OE newsreader functions. It is
much easier to post now than with the Google posting, but if I go too fast I
find that I am sending without having written. Now that I am using a
newsreader I am not looking in on the Google web site as much as I used to
either, so I feel kind of disconnected. I will have to slow down some and be
more deliberate as I cannot afford to be making mistakes in posting when I
am taking others to task for sloppiness in their posting.

--
Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Wow, you guys convinced me. I'm selling my Bacchetta and buying a Colnago.

Your collective lack of perspective truly amazes me. Fast-paced
recumbentism is growing and will continue to do so as word spreads, as fit
baby boomers age, and as manufacturers innovate with more aerodynamic and
lighter recumbents.

"Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"nogoslow" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
[...]

Quoted message said:

The only thing as a group to attract slow out of shape riders more
than recumbents is trike riders.
I love both recumbents and the trikes you design. Way cool bikes.
Fast people in the Midwest ride DF bikes. They will never switch.
When on the Aero I am so much faster that I don't get a good workout
so when I ride with my DF buddies I ride the DF bike.
The Aero speed anoys. So, I ride the bent alone.
We have a midwest fast weekly training ride that attracts at times
over 200 people on a Saturday morning. These are the top riders in the
area. None ride bents. None ever will inspite of the speed being
demonstrated to them. There just is no market here for fast bents. it
would be easier to sell one of your trikes to an older Gent with some
disposable income.
I notice the Aero sells down south where there seem to be a high
concentration of older people with disposable income for $4000 dollar
bikes.
Well aware of what john did and it is no suprise to me. Fast bents in
Ultras have a huge advantage over DF bikes.
I am building a 1 speed no suspension moutain bike for the trails
around my house. one speed bikes are pure and need very little
maintinance on a muddy trail. They have race catagories in WORRs
series races now.
Thousands of people show up at Mt. bike events and few show up at bent
races.
So the whole thing is boring.

Excellent post nogoslow and a reality check for many others on this
newsgroup. What you say about the cycling culture takes me back 25 years
when I was a part of it. Alas, no more. All this constant emphasis on
recumbents being fast totally misses the point. If you are into speed you
will want to ride with others and perhaps race and that means the world of
uprights, not recumbents (see any of Fab's posts to this newsgroup).
Recumbents are basically for us older gents with some disposable income.
Once you give up on speed cycling actually gets to be much more enjoyable,
but it takes maturity to appreciate it.

--
Ed Dolan - Minnesota (yesgoslow)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You must have some data to support this. So what are the frame weights ?

The Rans Force5 steel frame is about a pound lighter than the Bacchetta
Strada/Corsa. Here are direct quotes from the manufacturers themselves:

"The medium Corsa steel frame, with powdercoat, weighs 6.6 lbs . . . weighed
without their seat mounting hardware/delrin seat clamp."
source:
http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/Bacchetta_Bikes/message/3170

"The standard size wheel base (Force5) frame weighs in at 5.66 lbs"
source:
http://www.ransbikes.com/ITRForce5II.htm

I remember Bill Cook telling me the Barcroft Dakota frame is 4.8 pounds (I don't
know if that was before or after painting). I think the Bachetta and Volae design
need heavier material to maintain the stiffness of the rear wheel stays.

Notice the Force5 and Barcroft Dakota are hybrid designs. A large diameter
monotube is augmented by a smaller diameter rear triangle. This hybrid approach
combines the light weight simplicity of a monotube with the stiffness of a
triangulated rear end.

Notice that welding adds weight, manufacturing cost, and compromises the
structural continuity. The Barcroft design uses mandrel bent tubes for both
the monotube and the rear stays (two U shaped pieces) so the number of
tubes and welds are reduced.

The Barcroft design in particular is perhaps the most elegant on the market
since the rear triangle accomodates standard upright accessors (fenders,
racks, lighting, kickstands, trailer hitches, etc).

Enjoy!

- Peter

[email hidden] (Peter Sichel) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You must have some data to support this. So what are the frame weights ?

The Rans Force5 steel frame is about a pound lighter than the Bacchetta
Strada/Corsa. Here are direct quotes from the manufacturers themselves:

"The medium Corsa steel frame, with powdercoat, weighs 6.6 lbs . . . weighed
without their seat mounting hardware/delrin seat clamp."
source:
http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/Bacchetta_Bikes/message/3170

"The standard size wheel base (Force5) frame weighs in at 5.66 lbs"
source:
http://www.ransbikes.com/ITRForce5II.htm

I remember Bill Cook telling me the Barcroft Dakota frame is 4.8 pounds (I don't
know if that was before or after painting). I think the Bachetta and Volae design
need heavier material to maintain the stiffness of the rear wheel stays.

Notice the Force5 and Barcroft Dakota are hybrid designs. A large diameter
monotube is augmented by a smaller diameter rear triangle. This hybrid approach
combines the light weight simplicity of a monotube with the stiffness of a
triangulated rear end.

Notice that welding adds weight, manufacturing cost, and compromises the
structural continuity. The Barcroft design uses mandrel bent tubes for both
the monotube and the rear stays (two U shaped pieces) so the number of
tubes and welds are reduced.

The Barcroft design in particular is perhaps the most elegant on the market
since the rear triangle accomodates standard upright accessors (fenders,
racks, lighting, kickstands, trailer hitches, etc).

Enjoy!

- Peter

The Ti-Aero frameset bare is 3.5 lbs I believe.
I know its one of the lightest around.
I do believe that weight could be taken off the M-5 seat but would
have to be designed from the ground up. Little guys could have far
less carbon and they could be narrower for a racer to take the weight
down.
The Aero is not a pure speed bike for a track but a road bike for
every day riding.
I still think the seat and mounting hardware could be lightened up a
lot.
I weigh 150 lbs in season and I suppose could use a much lighter seat.
But a 240 lb guy?
Another area to speed up the bike would be some carbon handle bars
built with some kind of aero profile that would also serve to hide any
exposed cables.
Talking with the "B" principals I know the Strada is beefy and it was
intended to be so.
I know some big guys riding Strada's with no problems.
Remember the weight winnie days of Mountain bikes when every thing was
stupid light and major parts breaking and people getting hurt?
All this stuff is in fulx right now but I can say the 'bent market has
been on a big diet the last couple of years. The Aero being the
lightest "manufactured bike" out there I think.
The seat on the Aero is a real place for some weight savings IMHO.

"Steve Christensen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, nogoslow

says...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"> I don't get your insistence on "sponsoring riders". We can all
ride and

Quoted message said:

compare bents at our nearest dealers.

If you want a fast bike racing and competition is what drives
performance.
No one else in 'bent manufacturing is doing what Bacchetta is doing.
Showing up at races and fast events and invitationals and proving that
there bikes are fast.
And sorry, what do you know about a bikes performance? The fast guys
know what works and what does not work for speed.
Now comfort and a seat for a fat ass is another matter.
I try not to confuse the two issues.
So buy a bike and ride it what ever one that is and get that fat ass
smaller.
Bent riders are quite a joke IMHO in the fitness department.
Rich Pinto has done a lot to improve 'bents image with the Aero and it
is time for the other manufacturers to step up or shut up about the
performance of there bikes.

Kevin,

Does Bacchetta pay you for all of your pro-Bacchetta rants? Just curious,

since

Quoted message said:

I've seen "Team Bacchetta" after your name in a couple of places.

If they do pay you it makes me wonder about Bacchetta, since you're such

an

Quoted message said:

elitist snob, with such poor writing skills, that I don't think I would

want you

Quoted message said:

representing my company.

I mean, what better way to attract all of us to your product then to

insult us,

Quoted message said:

call us all fat asses, and say that our level of fitness is a joke.

Interesting marketing strategy. Did Rich Pinto think that up, or was that

you?

Quoted message said:

Steve Christensen

I think this guy is trolling. It's quite likely an alt for Flabbio trying a
different rant from a new angle. 🙂

Sticker Jim said:

"Steve Christensen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, nogoslow

says...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"> I don't get your insistence on "sponsoring riders". We can all
ride and

>compare bents at our nearest dealers.

If you want a fast bike racing and competition is what drives
performance.
No one else in 'bent manufacturing is doing what Bacchetta is doing.
Showing up at races and fast events and invitationals and proving that
there bikes are fast.
And sorry, what do you know about a bikes performance? The fast guys
know what works and what does not work for speed.
Now comfort and a seat for a fat ass is another matter.
I try not to confuse the two issues.
So buy a bike and ride it what ever one that is and get that fat ass
smaller.
Bent riders are quite a joke IMHO in the fitness department.
Rich Pinto has done a lot to improve 'bents image with the Aero and it
is time for the other manufacturers to step up or shut up about the
performance of there bikes.

Kevin,

Does Bacchetta pay you for all of your pro-Bacchetta rants? Just curious,

since

Quoted message said:

I've seen "Team Bacchetta" after your name in a couple of places.

If they do pay you it makes me wonder about Bacchetta, since you're such

an

Quoted message said:

elitist snob, with such poor writing skills, that I don't think I would

want you

Quoted message said:

representing my company.

I mean, what better way to attract all of us to your product then to

insult us,

Quoted message said:

call us all fat asses, and say that our level of fitness is a joke.

Interesting marketing strategy. Did Rich Pinto think that up, or was that

you?

Quoted message said:

Steve Christensen

I think this guy is trolling. It's quite likely an alt for Flabbio trying a
different rant from a new angle. 🙂

Kevin "Nogoslow" is a real person.

--
Tom Sherman – Quad City Area

"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Sticker Jim said:

"Steve Christensen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, nogoslow

says...

Quoted message said:

>"> I don't get your insistence on "sponsoring riders". We can all
>ride and
>
>>compare bents at our nearest dealers.
>
>If you want a fast bike racing and competition is what drives
>performance.
>No one else in 'bent manufacturing is doing what Bacchetta is doing.
>Showing up at races and fast events and invitationals and proving that
>there bikes are fast.
>And sorry, what do you know about a bikes performance? The fast guys
>know what works and what does not work for speed.
>Now comfort and a seat for a fat ass is another matter.
>I try not to confuse the two issues.
>So buy a bike and ride it what ever one that is and get that fat ass
>smaller.
>Bent riders are quite a joke IMHO in the fitness department.
>Rich Pinto has done a lot to improve 'bents image with the Aero and it
>is time for the other manufacturers to step up or shut up about the
>performance of there bikes.

Kevin,

Does Bacchetta pay you for all of your pro-Bacchetta rants? Just

curious,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

since

Quoted message said:

I've seen "Team Bacchetta" after your name in a couple of places.

If they do pay you it makes me wonder about Bacchetta, since you're such

an

Quoted message said:

elitist snob, with such poor writing skills, that I don't think I would

want you

Quoted message said:

representing my company.

I mean, what better way to attract all of us to your product then to

insult us,

Quoted message said:

call us all fat asses, and say that our level of fitness is a joke.

Interesting marketing strategy. Did Rich Pinto think that up, or was

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

you?

Quoted message said:

Steve Christensen

I think this guy is trolling. It's quite likely an alt for Flabbio

trying a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

different rant from a new angle. 🙂

Kevin "Nogoslow" is a real person.

This is where I came in 20 years ago when Easy Racer's Tour Easy (Gold Rush)
and Lightning Dynamics' P-38 were all the rage for being fast. They were
both being raced at the time and winning a few races and so were being
touted as fast recumbents. Alas, there is no recumbent ever invented for
being fast that I can't climb aboard and be as slow as molasses. This
newsgroup ought to be split in two - between those who wanna be fast and all
the rest of us who are slow, slower, and slowest. That way the vast majority
of us would not have the aggravation of seeing these posts where various
idiots are constantly crowing about how fast they are on this or that
recumbent. In the grand scheme of things, speed on a bike ranks near the
bottom.

--
Ed Dolan - Minnesota

nogoslow said:

[email hidden] (Andrew Douglas) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

(nogoslow) said:

You should see how many fit older people around the midwest ride DF
bikes so being on a bent is an embarasment.

way does riding a DF equate to being fit?

Quoted message said:

what other people think of me or my bike. I ride it because I like

it.

Quoted message said:

nogoslow, I seem to recall you first popping up about 18 months ago,
and you were gushing like crazy about how wonderful and fast bents
were. It was all about the bike then, not your perceptions about the
riders. What happened?

Perhaps you should head out to the Indianapolis HPRA races and see
just how fit some recumbent riders are.

Did you know that Schlitter just completed BAF (167 miles) with an
average of over 24 mph? Embarrssment? I don't think so.

Andy Douglas
Catrike

The only thing as a group to attract slow out of shape riders more
than recumbents is trike riders.
I love both recumbents and the trikes you design. Way cool bikes.
Fast people in the Midwest ride DF bikes. They will never switch.
When on the Aero I am so much faster that I don't get a good workout
so when I ride with my DF buddies I ride the DF bike.
The Aero speed anoys. So, I ride the bent alone.
We have a midwest fast weekly training ride that attracts at times
over 200 people on a Saturday morning. These are the top riders in the
area. None ride bents. None ever will inspite of the speed being
demonstrated to them. There just is no market here for fast bents. it
would be easier to sell one of your trikes to an older Gent with some
disposable income.
I notice the Aero sells down south where there seem to be a high
concentration of older people with disposable income for $4000 dollar
bikes.
Well aware of what john did and it is no suprise to me. Fast bents in
Ultras have a huge advantage over DF bikes.
I am building a 1 speed no suspension moutain bike for the trails
around my house. one speed bikes are pure and need very little
maintinance on a muddy trail. They have race catagories in WORRs
series races now.
Thousands of people show up at Mt. bike events and few show up at bent
races.
So the whole thing is boring.

If the Aero is too fast a bike for your df buddies try something a bit
slower & cheaper. I ride my faired GRR with the df riders in my bike club
and, for the most part, it isn't a bad fit. I am faster on the downhills
and a little slower on the uphills but about equal on the flats and gentle
rollers. The group I ride with appreciates tucking in behind me going
into a headwind. Sailing along with a tailwind we can really get cranking
along pretty fast on the flats. When I get way out ahead of everybody on a
downhill I either slow down and wait for them or they pass me going up the
next hill. Either way I try to stay with the group and get neither to far
ahead or behind.
There is a pretty good difference in the size of the rides though. Whereas
you have 200 show up at your rides if we have 10 show up at our club rides
it's a pretty good sized group.

Now what does this have to do with Monotubes vs Triangulation? At least
it's still about biking.

David
TE and soon to be socked GRR

"David" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
[...]

Quoted message said:

If the Aero is too fast a bike for your df buddies try something a bit
slower & cheaper. I ride my faired GRR with the df riders in my bike club
and, for the most part, it isn't a bad fit. I am faster on the downhills
and a little slower on the uphills but about equal on the flats and gentle
rollers. The group I ride with appreciates tucking in behind me going
into a headwind. Sailing along with a tailwind we can really get cranking
along pretty fast on the flats. When I get way out ahead of everybody on a
downhill I either slow down and wait for them or they pass me going up the
next hill. Either way I try to stay with the group and get neither to far
ahead or behind.

Most unusual that you should be able to stay with uprights in hilly country.
I have never seen it myself. Normally, you will never make up on the
downhills what you lose on the uphills. You will fall behind and never be
seen nor heard from again.

--
Ed Dolan - Minnesota

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 11:33:37 -0500, "Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Most unusual that you should be able to stay with uprights in hilly country.
I have never seen it myself. Normally, you will never make up on the
downhills what you lose on the uphills. You will fall behind and never be
seen nor heard from again.

Rolling hills are pretty good for recumbents - parts of Missouri and
NE Kansas for example. Pennsylvania OTOH insists on nasty short climbs
and stop signs at the bottom of every downhill. Makes a 50 mile ride
feel like a hundred.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...