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Monotubes vs Triangulation

Started by Alan Mushnick · · Last activity · 53 posts · 2,833 views

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Recumbent bicycles
Published
14 April 2004
Last activity
15 June 2004
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Alan Mushnick
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  1. I am a newbie to bent riding after many thousands of miles on wedges.
    I am not an expert in cycling architecture, but after a couple of
    hundred miles on my Corsa, it seems like a great balance between
    pedaling efficiency and vertical compliance. I really enjoy the feel
    of the input through the pedals and the way in which the bike flexes
    over the common undulations in the road. More abrupt bumps, of
    course, are a real pain in the butt, but overall, what a nicely
    engineered mono tube bike structure. I'm amazed at the the fine tuned
    engineering of my Bacchetta.

    [email hidden] (RCPINTO) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    Alan Mushnick wrote;

    Quoted message said:

    Isn't there an inherent structural advantage of triangulated frames
    over monotubes? This seemed to be a big part of the discussion of the
    Easy Racer vs. Rans V2 debate.

    Hi Alan

    Designers make choices all the time about how to balance the sometimes
    conflicting goals of weight, stiffness, aerodynamics etc. of frames.

    Many times frame geometry and material, or the style of bike (or trike) and
    wheelbase make the designers choices easy.

    Two entirely different stiffness issues are involved here, those against
    pedaling forces (fairly important IMO) and vertical stiffness. I have ridden
    truss frames out there that are very vertically stiff, but have
    wagging/twisting bottom brackets from a lack of horizontal stiffness. Pedaling
    forces act on frames in both the horizontal and vertical plane.

    Vertical stiffness is not always a good thing on bicycles, you have to
    consider that you have a human engine on board, and bumpy roads to contend
    with. If a frames stiffness against pedaling forces also makes the frame a
    jackhammer vertically, you only have the tires and the seat cushioning to act
    as springs between you and the road.

    Also, making a frame lighter by triangulation can make a bike slower by
    increasing the frontal area of tubes under the rider, and also by requiring
    lower pressure (generally wider, heavier, lower performance) tires for
    equivalent rider comfort. A bikes frontal area and the tires rolling
    resistance are the two dominant factors in efficiency on most courses.

    Weight undoubtedly sells bikes- but improved aerodynamics and lower
    rolling resistance makes them more efficient on the road.

    As far as triangulation always yielding lighter frames... the bare
    titanium Bacchetta Aero frame weighs 3.5 lbs and has what I feel are the ideal
    tradeoffs of weight, low frame frontal area under the rider, and some passive
    suspension vertically...but still stiff enough against pedaling forces for high
    transmission efficiency.

    Our steel frames weigh about 3 lbs more and are stiffer vertically, but
    still have a good amount of passive suspension to augment the tires and seat
    cushioning's road shock absorbtion...VERY important to our bikes performance!

    That's what is great about the world of recumbents today, everyone can
    make a different choice about what is most important to them, and choose bikes
    with greatly different characteristics and abilities!

    Rich Pinto
    Bacchetta Bicycles

  2. "> I don't get your insistence on "sponsoring riders". We can all
    ride and

    Quoted message said:

    compare bents at our nearest dealers.

    If you want a fast bike racing and competition is what drives
    performance.
    No one else in 'bent manufacturing is doing what Bacchetta is doing.
    Showing up at races and fast events and invitationals and proving that
    there bikes are fast.
    And sorry, what do you know about a bikes performance? The fast guys
    know what works and what does not work for speed.
    Now comfort and a seat for a fat ass is another matter.
    I try not to confuse the two issues.
    So buy a bike and ride it what ever one that is and get that fat ass
    smaller.
    Bent riders are quite a joke IMHO in the fitness department.
    Rich Pinto has done a lot to improve 'bents image with the Aero and it
    is time for the other manufacturers to step up or shut up about the
    performance of there bikes.
    The designers design and the athletes ride and then it filters down to
    the F.O.G.'s on HPV's.
    That is the way it works in the DF world and it is no different in our
    world.

  3. "swamprun" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    TimH said:

    The triangulated Rans Force5 frame is noticeably lighter than the steel
    monotube hiracer frames on the market.

    You must have some data to support this. So what are the frame weights ?

    The Rans Force5 steel frame is about a pound lighter than the Bacchetta
    Strada/Corsa. Here are direct quotes from the manufacturers themselves:

    "The medium Corsa steel frame, with powdercoat, weighs 6.6 lbs . . . weighed
    without their seat mounting hardware/delrin seat clamp."
    source:
    http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/Bacchetta_Bikes/message/3170

    "The standard size wheel base (Force5) frame weighs in at 5.66 lbs"
    source:
    http://www.ransbikes.com/ITRForce5II.htm

  4. I'm amazed at how you defer to who you perceive as superior and more
    knowledgeable riders. FWIW, I'm not a fat ass rider (never was) and don't
    need to lose an ounce. I'm a fairly strong rider and able to decide for
    myself which is the superior bike for me.

    I find your supposedly rhetorical question "And sorry, what do you know
    about a bikes performance?" as insulting. Your statement "bent riders are
    quite a joke IMHO in the fitness department" is a laughable generalization.
    So I guess you're saying fat, out-of-shape riders should buy Bacchettas and
    I won't disagree - they would surely benefit. And yes, I think the
    Bacchetta is a superb bent (hint - I ride one).

    So to return to the point at hand, I WILL take a Rans Force5 on an extensive
    test ride even though they don't sponsor racers, and decide for myself how
    it compares in performance with the other high racers on the market.

    "nogoslow" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "> I don't get your insistence on "sponsoring riders". We can all
    ride and

    Quoted message said:

    compare bents at our nearest dealers.

    If you want a fast bike racing and competition is what drives
    performance.
    No one else in 'bent manufacturing is doing what Bacchetta is doing.
    Showing up at races and fast events and invitationals and proving that
    there bikes are fast.
    And sorry, what do you know about a bikes performance? The fast guys
    know what works and what does not work for speed.
    Now comfort and a seat for a fat ass is another matter.
    I try not to confuse the two issues.
    So buy a bike and ride it what ever one that is and get that fat ass
    smaller.
    Bent riders are quite a joke IMHO in the fitness department.
    Rich Pinto has done a lot to improve 'bents image with the Aero and it
    is time for the other manufacturers to step up or shut up about the
    performance of there bikes.
    The designers design and the athletes ride and then it filters down to
    the F.O.G.'s on HPV's.
    That is the way it works in the DF world and it is no different in our
    world.

  5. "meb" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Volae Sport 27.5 vs. Force 5 LE 28.0-28.4 Volae Club 26 (No intermediate
    Force 5 model) Volae Team 24 vs. Force 5 XP 25.6-25.9

    Are you suggesting the Volae models save weight with much lighter
    componetry?


    Exactly. The more apt comparison component-wise is the Club vs XP.
    Components are quite similar in weight and are pretty much a wash except for
    the seat. The Club's M5 Carbon seat is 1-1.5 pounds lighter than the
    Zephyr.

  6. In article <[email hidden]>, nogoslow says...

    Quoted message said:


    "> I don't get your insistence on "sponsoring riders". We can all
    ride and

    Quoted message said:

    compare bents at our nearest dealers.

    If you want a fast bike racing and competition is what drives
    performance.
    No one else in 'bent manufacturing is doing what Bacchetta is doing.
    Showing up at races and fast events and invitationals and proving that
    there bikes are fast.
    And sorry, what do you know about a bikes performance? The fast guys
    know what works and what does not work for speed.
    Now comfort and a seat for a fat ass is another matter.
    I try not to confuse the two issues.
    So buy a bike and ride it what ever one that is and get that fat ass
    smaller.
    Bent riders are quite a joke IMHO in the fitness department.
    Rich Pinto has done a lot to improve 'bents image with the Aero and it
    is time for the other manufacturers to step up or shut up about the
    performance of there bikes.

    Kevin,

    Does Bacchetta pay you for all of your pro-Bacchetta rants? Just curious, since
    I’ve seen "Team Bacchetta" after your name in a couple of places.

    If they do pay you it makes me wonder about Bacchetta, since you’re such an
    elitist snob, with such poor writing skills, that I don’t think I would want you
    representing my company.

    I mean, what better way to attract all of us to your product then to insult us,
    call us all fat asses, and say that our level of fitness is a joke.

    Interesting marketing strategy. Did Rich Pinto think that up, or was that you?

    Steve Christensen

  7. TimH said:


    "meb" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Volae Sport 27.5 vs. Force 5 LE 28.0-28.4 Volae Club 26 (No intermediate
    Force 5 model) Volae Team 24 vs. Force 5 XP 25.6-25.9

    Are you suggesting the Volae models save weight with much lighter
    componetry?


    Exactly. The more apt comparison component-wise is the Club vs XP.
    Components are quite similar in weight and are pretty much a wash except for
    the seat. The Club's M5 Carbon seat is 1-1.5 pounds lighter than the
    Zephyr.

    What is the weight of the Volae frame ???

  8. TimH said:

    The Rans Force5 steel frame is about a pound lighter than the Bacchetta
    Strada/Corsa. Here are direct quotes from the manufacturers themselves:

    "The medium Corsa steel frame, with powdercoat, weighs 6.6 lbs . . . weighed
    without their seat mounting hardware/delrin seat clamp."
    source:
    http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/Bacchetta_Bikes/message/3170

    "The standard size wheel base (Force5) frame weighs in at 5.66 lbs"
    source:
    http://www.ransbikes.com/ITRForce5II.htm

    What about the Volae frame ? Find a manufacturer's quote for that too.

  9. Steve Christensen said:

    Kevin,

    Does Bacchetta pay you for all of your pro-Bacchetta rants? Just curious, since
    I’ve seen "Team Bacchetta" after your name in a couple of places.

    If they do pay you it makes me wonder about Bacchetta, since you’re such an
    elitist snob, with such poor writing skills, that I don’t think I would want you
    representing my company.

    I mean, what better way to attract all of us to your product then to insult us,
    call us all fat asses, and say that our level of fitness is a joke.

    Interesting marketing strategy. Did Rich Pinto think that up, or was that you?

    Steve Christensen

    Yeah, what I wonder to. Doesn't work to try to sell me a bike by saying it'll fix my
    fat ass.
    And what's with saying Randy Schlitter should STFU.
    Kevin needs a Dale Carnegie seminar.
    bg

  10. You are spot on!

    Gabe

    "Andrew Douglas" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Gabriel DeVault" <[email hidden]> wrote in message


    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    TY for pointing that out so I didn't have to 🙂

    Sorry about that...I remembered that fact right after I hit the "post"
    button.

    Just to clarify, I didn't mean to imply that the TE frame (or any
    other conventional safety bicycle-type frame) is weak laterally...far
    from it. Only that plane trusses are very stiff and strong in the
    direction in which they're triangulated, but less so at right angles
    to that plane. Even with the pair of side-by-side lower tubes, the TE
    frame is going to be stiffer and stronger in one plane than it is in
    the other. To make a bicycle frame as stiff and strong laterally as it
    is vertically, you'd have to build a space frame as wide as it is
    tall.

    The basic design of the diamond-frame bicycle (which the TE is an
    extension of) has proven itself to be very robust over many, many
    years. It's a really elegant way of solving the design problem...much
    more efficient in terms of use of materials than a plain monotube. So
    relative differences in strength and stiffness in one plane vs. the
    other are really academic: the thing is plenty strong enough.

    The TE's side-by-side lower tubes are (please correct me if I'm
    wrong...I don't own one) literally side-by-side and not separated,
    which if I understand the forces involved would make them behave
    approximately like a single oval tube of similar dimension to the two
    together...stiffer in the direction of the major axis than it is in
    the direction of the minor axis.

    I believe (not entirely sure about this) that the overall dimensions
    of the truss directly impact its stiffness and strength. So, for
    example, a wide truss (TE frame) will be stronger and stiffer in the
    vertical dimension than a narrow truss (V2 frame) if all else is equal
    (similar tube sizes and materials). RANS uses a fat main tube, so that
    changes things, making the narrow truss stronger and stiffer (and
    heavier) than it would otherwise be. The V2's lower tubes are
    separated and braced, which adds to the lateral stiffness.

    Of course, I may be completely out of my skull. Wouldn't be the first
    time. ;-)

    Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

    Andy Douglas
    Catrike

  11. asg said:

    Yeah, what I wonder to. Doesn't work to try to sell me a bike by saying it'll fix my
    fat ass.
    And what's with saying Randy Schlitter should STFU.
    Kevin needs a Dale Carnegie seminar.

    Some of us remember to use a lot of smiley emoticons when going on and
    on and on and on and on about our favorite bike. 😉 (: 🙂 🙂

    --
    Tom Sherman – Quad Cities (Illinois Side)

  12. Steve Christensen <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, nogoslow says...

    Quoted message said:


    "> I don't get your insistence on "sponsoring riders". We can all
    ride and

    Quoted message said:

    compare bents at our nearest dealers.

    If you want a fast bike racing and competition is what drives
    performance.
    No one else in 'bent manufacturing is doing what Bacchetta is doing.
    Showing up at races and fast events and invitationals and proving that
    there bikes are fast.
    And sorry, what do you know about a bikes performance? The fast guys
    know what works and what does not work for speed.
    Now comfort and a seat for a fat ass is another matter.
    I try not to confuse the two issues.
    So buy a bike and ride it what ever one that is and get that fat ass
    smaller.
    Bent riders are quite a joke IMHO in the fitness department.
    Rich Pinto has done a lot to improve 'bents image with the Aero and it
    is time for the other manufacturers to step up or shut up about the
    performance of there bikes.

    Kevin,

    Does Bacchetta pay you for all of your pro-Bacchetta rants? Just curious, since
    I?ve seen "Team Bacchetta" after your name in a couple of places.

    If they do pay you it makes me wonder about Bacchetta, since you?re such an
    elitist snob, with such poor writing skills, that I don?t think I would want you
    representing my company.

    I mean, what better way to attract all of us to your product then to insult us,
    call us all fat asses, and say that our level of fitness is a joke.

    Interesting marketing strategy. Did Rich Pinto think that up, or was that you?

    Steve Christensen

    NO pay man,
    Matter of fact I got an Aero for sale maybe. Can't stand the fat ass
    crowd.
    You should see how many fit older people around the midwest ride DF
    bikes so being on a bent is an embarasment.
    I live less than a mile from some of the best MTB trails in the
    midwest and I have my eye on a new MT. Bike. The Aero could finance
    that just fine.
    Probably going to keep my bent but just like Mt. biking more right
    now. lots of fit people to ride with on the trail and Zero fit people
    to ride with while bent.
    Still like what Bacchetta is trying to do here to attract a different
    crowd to bents but don't think it will work judging form some of the
    people on this list with there fat assed based closed minds.
    Maybe they will be successfull in creating a new Market that is more
    performance oriantated but I doubt they can do so.
    At least the disscussion of this thread is on bents and not politics.

  13. (nogoslow) said:

    You should see how many fit older people around the midwest ride DF
    bikes so being on a bent is an embarasment.

    Sorry for straying further OT....

    I'm just missing something here, I guess. You're embarrassed because
    of the other people you see riding recumbents? Huh? Why not just be
    happy that you're fast instead of putting down your fellow cyclists?

    Your observation that fit older people ride DFs does not mean that fit
    people only choose to ride DFs. There are plenty of fit older people
    riding recumbents. I know several.

    In what way does riding a bent equate to being out of shape? In what
    way does riding a DF equate to being fit?

    I've seen an awful lot of slow, fat, clueless riders on DFs (I mean
    clueless to the point of not realizing that they should downshift
    going up hills). Does that mean I should be be embarrassed to ride a
    DF? I've seen an awful lot of really stupid younger people doing
    idiotic things on MTBs...crash test dummy stuff (in the office the
    other day someone showed a clip of an MTB rider falling off a CLIFF
    and somersaulting something like 150 feet...I was horrified, wondering
    about the injuries...the MTB riders in the office thought it was
    hilarious). Does that mean that riding an MTB is an embarrassment?

    Maybe it's an age thing. I'm old enough that I really don't give a fig
    what other people think of me or my bike. I ride it because I like it.

    nogoslow, I seem to recall you first popping up about 18 months ago,
    and you were gushing like crazy about how wonderful and fast bents
    were. It was all about the bike then, not your perceptions about the
    riders. What happened?

    Perhaps you should head out to the Indianapolis HPRA races and see
    just how fit some recumbent riders are.

    Did you know that Schlitter just completed BAF (167 miles) with an
    average of over 24 mph? Embarrssment? I don't think so.

    Andy Douglas
    Catrike

  14. "Andrew Douglas" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    (nogoslow) said:

    You should see how many fit older people around the midwest ride DF
    bikes so being on a bent is an embarasment.

    Sorry for straying further OT....

    I'm just missing something here, I guess. You're embarrassed because
    of the other people you see riding recumbents? Huh? Why not just be
    happy that you're fast instead of putting down your fellow cyclists?

    Your observation that fit older people ride DFs does not mean that fit
    people only choose to ride DFs. There are plenty of fit older people
    riding recumbents. I know several.

    In what way does riding a bent equate to being out of shape? In what
    way does riding a DF equate to being fit?

    I've seen an awful lot of slow, fat, clueless riders on DFs (I mean
    clueless to the point of not realizing that they should downshift
    going up hills). Does that mean I should be be embarrassed to ride a
    DF? I've seen an awful lot of really stupid younger people doing
    idiotic things on MTBs...crash test dummy stuff (in the office the
    other day someone showed a clip of an MTB rider falling off a CLIFF
    and somersaulting something like 150 feet...I was horrified, wondering
    about the injuries...the MTB riders in the office thought it was
    hilarious). Does that mean that riding an MTB is an embarrassment?

    Maybe it's an age thing. I'm old enough that I really don't give a fig
    what other people think of me or my bike. I ride it because I like it.

    nogoslow, I seem to recall you first popping up about 18 months ago,
    and you were gushing like crazy about how wonderful and fast bents
    were. It was all about the bike then, not your perceptions about the
    riders. What happened?

    Perhaps you should head out to the Indianapolis HPRA races and see
    just how fit some recumbent riders are.

    Did you know that Schlitter just completed BAF (167 miles) with an
    average of over 24 mph? Embarrssment? I don't think so.

    Andy Douglas
    Catrike

  15. "Andrew Douglas" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...
    [...]

    Quoted message said:

    Your observation that fit older people ride DFs does not mean that fit
    people only choose to ride DFs. There are plenty of fit older people
    riding recumbents. I know several.


    [...]

    Quoted message said:

    Maybe it's an age thing. I'm old enough that I really don't give a fig
    what other people think of me or my bike. I ride it because I like it.

    I think it mostly is an age related thing. The fact is that there are not
    many younger people on recumbents. Most of us who are riding reucmbents are
    well over 40 years of age. What kicks in for most of us is that we lose our
    fitness with increasing age at which point a recumbent becomes more
    reasonable because it is more comfortable. Many of us if we were not riding
    recumbents would not be riding any bikes at all.

    I have known several younger people who have gotten recumbents and then have
    gone back to uprights. They are still into performance and want to be fast,
    especially climbing hills. When you get to be my age (getting near 70) you
    give up on speed and you only want to maintain your fitness and to be
    comfortable while you are doing it. Also, the older you get the less you
    care about what others might think of you. You no longer have a strong
    desire to fit in or stay current with the latest fashions. However, as you
    can well imagine, I never did care what others might think of me, even when
    I was young.

    --
    Ed Dolan - Minnesota

  16. [email hidden] (Andrew Douglas) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    (nogoslow) said:

    You should see how many fit older people around the midwest ride DF
    bikes so being on a bent is an embarasment.

    way does riding a DF equate to being fit?

    Quoted message said:

    what other people think of me or my bike. I ride it because I like


    it.

    Quoted message said:


    nogoslow, I seem to recall you first popping up about 18 months ago,
    and you were gushing like crazy about how wonderful and fast bents
    were. It was all about the bike then, not your perceptions about the
    riders. What happened?

    Perhaps you should head out to the Indianapolis HPRA races and see
    just how fit some recumbent riders are.

    Did you know that Schlitter just completed BAF (167 miles) with an
    average of over 24 mph? Embarrssment? I don't think so.

    Andy Douglas
    Catrike

    The only thing as a group to attract slow out of shape riders more
    than recumbents is trike riders.
    I love both recumbents and the trikes you design. Way cool bikes.
    Fast people in the Midwest ride DF bikes. They will never switch.
    When on the Aero I am so much faster that I don't get a good workout
    so when I ride with my DF buddies I ride the DF bike.
    The Aero speed anoys. So, I ride the bent alone.
    We have a midwest fast weekly training ride that attracts at times
    over 200 people on a Saturday morning. These are the top riders in the
    area. None ride bents. None ever will inspite of the speed being
    demonstrated to them. There just is no market here for fast bents. it
    would be easier to sell one of your trikes to an older Gent with some
    disposable income.
    I notice the Aero sells down south where there seem to be a high
    concentration of older people with disposable income for $4000 dollar
    bikes.
    Well aware of what john did and it is no suprise to me. Fast bents in
    Ultras have a huge advantage over DF bikes.
    I am building a 1 speed no suspension moutain bike for the trails
    around my house. one speed bikes are pure and need very little
    maintinance on a muddy trail. They have race catagories in WORRs
    series races now.
    Thousands of people show up at Mt. bike events and few show up at bent
    races.
    So the whole thing is boring.

  17. "nogoslow" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...
    [...]

    Quoted message said:

    The only thing as a group to attract slow out of shape riders more
    than recumbents is trike riders.
    I love both recumbents and the trikes you design. Way cool bikes.
    Fast people in the Midwest ride DF bikes. They will never switch.
    When on the Aero I am so much faster that I don't get a good workout
    so when I ride with my DF buddies I ride the DF bike.
    The Aero speed anoys. So, I ride the bent alone.
    We have a midwest fast weekly training ride that attracts at times
    over 200 people on a Saturday morning. These are the top riders in the
    area. None ride bents. None ever will inspite of the speed being
    demonstrated to them. There just is no market here for fast bents. it
    would be easier to sell one of your trikes to an older Gent with some
    disposable income.
    I notice the Aero sells down south where there seem to be a high
    concentration of older people with disposable income for $4000 dollar
    bikes.
    Well aware of what john did and it is no suprise to me. Fast bents in
    Ultras have a huge advantage over DF bikes.
    I am building a 1 speed no suspension moutain bike for the trails
    around my house. one speed bikes are pure and need very little
    maintinance on a muddy trail. They have race catagories in WORRs
    series races now.
    Thousands of people show up at Mt. bike events and few show up at bent
    races.
    So the whole thing is boring.

    Excellent post nogoslow and a reality check for many others on this
    newsgroup. What you say about the cycling culture takes me back 25 years
    when I was a part of it. Alas, no more. All this constant emphasis on
    recumbents being fast totally misses the point. If you are into speed you
    will want to ride with others and perhaps race and that means the world of
    uprights, not recumbents (see any of Fab's posts to this newsgroup).
    Recumbents are basically for us older gents with some disposable income.
    Once you give up on speed cycling actually gets to be much more enjoyable,
    but it takes maturity to appreciate it.

    --
    Ed Dolan - Minnesota (yesgoslow)

  18. "Andrew Douglas" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    (nogoslow) said:

    You should see how many fit older people around the midwest ride DF
    bikes so being on a bent is an embarasment.

    Sorry for straying further OT....

    You've got to be kidding! It is only when the messages stray a bit and go
    off topic that the subject thread gets interesting to me and many others
    here.
    [...]

    Quoted message said:

    In what way does riding a bent equate to being out of shape? In what
    way does riding a DF equate to being fit?

    Most recumbent riders are older gents who are not into speed but merely want
    some minimum fitness so they don't die of heart failure. You mean you didn't
    know that?
    [...]

    Quoted message said:

    Maybe it's an age thing. I'm old enough that I really don't give a fig
    what other people think of me or my bike. I ride it because I like it.

    Yeah, me too! I think you can safely say that about most recumbent cyclists.

    --
    Ed Dolan - Minnesota

  19. nogoslow said:

    [email hidden] (Andrew Douglas) wrote in message news

    Quoted message said:
    (nogoslow) said:

    You should see how many fit older people around the midwest ride DF
    bikes so being on a bent is an embarasment.

    way does riding a DF equate to being fit?

    Quoted message said:

    what other people think of me or my bike. I ride it because I like


    it.

    Quoted message said:


    nogoslow, I seem to recall you first popping up about 18 months ago,
    and you were gushing like crazy about how wonderful and fast bents
    were. It was all about the bike then, not your perceptions about the
    riders. What happened?

    Perhaps you should head out to the Indianapolis HPRA races and see
    just how fit some recumbent riders are.

    Did you know that Schlitter just completed BAF (167 miles) with an
    average of over 24 mph? Embarrssment? I don't think so.

    Andy Douglas
    Catrike

    The only thing as a group to attract slow out of shape riders more
    than recumbents is trike riders.
    I love both recumbents and the trikes you design. Way cool bikes.
    Fast people in the Midwest ride DF bikes. They will never switch.
    When on the Aero I am so much faster that I don't get a good workout
    so when I ride with my DF buddies I ride the DF bike.
    The Aero speed anoys. So, I ride the bent alone.
    We have a midwest fast weekly training ride that attracts at times
    over 200 people on a Saturday morning. These are the top riders in the
    area. None ride bents. None ever will inspite of the speed being
    demonstrated to them. There just is no market here for fast bents. it
    would be easier to sell one of your trikes to an older Gent with some
    disposable income.
    I notice the Aero sells down south where there seem to be a high
    concentration of older people with disposable income for $4000 dollar
    bikes.
    Well aware of what john did and it is no suprise to me. Fast bents in
    Ultras have a huge advantage over DF bikes.
    I am building a 1 speed no suspension moutain bike for the trails
    around my house. one speed bikes are pure and need very little
    maintinance on a muddy trail. They have race catagories in WORRs
    series races now.
    Thousands of people show up at Mt. bike events and few show up at bent
    races.
    So the whole thing is boring.

    If the Aero is too fast a bike for your df buddies try something a bit
    slower & cheaper. I ride my faired GRR with the df riders in my bike club
    and, for the most part, it isn't a bad fit. I am faster on the downhills
    and a little slower on the uphills but about equal on the flats and gentle
    rollers. The group I ride with appreciates tucking in behind me going
    into a headwind. Sailing along with a tailwind we can really get cranking
    along pretty fast on the flats. When I get way out ahead of everybody on a
    downhill I either slow down and wait for them or they pass me going up the
    next hill. Either way I try to stay with the group and get neither to far
    ahead or behind.
    There is a pretty good difference in the size of the rides though. Whereas
    you have 200 show up at your rides if we have 10 show up at our club rides
    it's a pretty good sized group.

    Now what does this have to do with Monotubes vs Triangulation? At least
    it's still about biking.

    David
    TE and soon to be socked GRR

  20. "Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    "nogoslow" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...
    [...]

    Quoted message said:

    The only thing as a group to attract slow out of shape riders more
    than recumbents is trike riders.
    I love both recumbents and the trikes you design. Way cool bikes.
    Fast people in the Midwest ride DF bikes. They will never switch.
    When on the Aero I am so much faster that I don't get a good workout
    so when I ride with my DF buddies I ride the DF bike.
    The Aero speed anoys. So, I ride the bent alone.
    We have a midwest fast weekly training ride that attracts at times
    over 200 people on a Saturday morning. These are the top riders in the
    area. None ride bents. None ever will inspite of the speed being
    demonstrated to them. There just is no market here for fast bents. it
    would be easier to sell one of your trikes to an older Gent with some
    disposable income.
    I notice the Aero sells down south where there seem to be a high
    concentration of older people with disposable income for $4000 dollar
    bikes.
    Well aware of what john did and it is no suprise to me. Fast bents in
    Ultras have a huge advantage over DF bikes.
    I am building a 1 speed no suspension moutain bike for the trails
    around my house. one speed bikes are pure and need very little
    maintinance on a muddy trail. They have race catagories in WORRs
    series races now.
    Thousands of people show up at Mt. bike events and few show up at bent
    races.
    So the whole thing is boring.

    Excellent post nogoslow and a reality check for many others on this
    newsgroup. What you say about the cycling culture takes me back 25 years
    when I was a part of it. Alas, no more. All this constant emphasis on
    recumbents being fast totally misses the point. If you are into speed you
    will want to ride with others and perhaps race and that means the world of
    uprights, not recumbents (see any of Fab's posts to this newsgroup).
    Recumbents are basically for us older gents with some disposable income.
    Once you give up on speed cycling actually gets to be much more enjoyable,
    but it takes maturity to appreciate it.

    Wow Ed,

    A bit of wisdom from you that I can take to the bank?
    I love the speed of bents but socially in the midwest we need a little
    catch up to take place with the realities of bicycle performance.
    Bents are way faster (like the Aero or a Eruro lowracer) but the DF
    mentality will stay forever.
    I am not 70 yet but hope to be riding at your age Ed. Great post!
    I have a friend who rides 100 mile rides and then goes square dancing!
    He is 76 years young and could pass for 50 any day!
    My brothers son is in Iraq in the worst fighting you could imagine in
    the marine corp Ed so I hope you will cut me some slack for worry.
    And Tom is a cool guy too with some good points but would like to see
    just bent posts on this site to escape from the awful realties of life
    guy's.
    The worry of this war has just got me down. And my family worries
    about our Marine each day. I just can't help it Ed. It is real up
    close and personal for me.
    Well, back to bents and away from the war.....

    Kevin

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