Mental marathoning

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THe caveat is I am a deviation from the formulas which you use to arrive at those times.

So am I ;-)

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I hold my speed better than most people as distance increases. I was capable of no faster than
1:12+ (had 1:13:20 PR) when I ran 2:29:27, and ran a 33:15 10k 3 weeks before that marathon. I
figured if I could run 1:09 at the race I bonked and ran 1:10:58 I was ready. So since I
overtrained I lost my chance at a good reference race.

OK the logic holds up as far as I can see. I just wonder if you couldn't do faster 10k/21k if you
tuned your training to those distances. Our late trainer (olympic selection marathoner in 2h11)
wasn't worth squat (this IS relative of course :-)))) at 10k and 21k coz he trained specifically for
marathons.

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---The problem with body weight is that it is dangerous to adjust it this close to a race, as I
might end up getting too tired or too light and ruining myself. I currently weight 146-148 at
about 5% BF,

Check. I figured you did know what you were doing :-). That 5% BF figure makes me shiver with envy,
I was at 10% when I did my PB (67kg/6.5kg fat) and it wasn't "natural" 69kg/8kg is more like my
everyday make-up (5'11"/180cm)

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I hoped to race at 145 and still do. I don't have a lot of fat to spare as I've burned out every
time I dip below 145 (I'm 5'10"😉.

OK I'm convinced :-)

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---Just hammering my few remaining workouts,

OK

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shortening my taper a bit,

ONE extra workout eh? No more /n'est-ce pas/?

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and hoping for the best 😉 Andy Hass

Make it happen!

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----Problem is that vVO2max isn't all that important in the marathon.

True. But I was working on the idea that maybe you would not lose your aerobic capacity (read:
percentage of vVO2max useable over 42k), at least not as quickly, as you would lose actual vVO2max,
which falls of quicker I understand.

By improving your vVO2max, the percentage you'd need to hold over 42k, in order to do the same time,
would be proportionally lower, maybe allowing you to lay off the long hard stuff enough to refill
your tanks. The idea (which is probably wrong) was that, say, you can do

22.1 km/h vVO2max and hold 80% over 42k => 17.7 km/h gives a 2h22

if you can sharpen vVO2max up to

23.4 km/h, then for a 2h23 marathon at 17.7 km/h => 79% vVO2max

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The only time I would approach that level of intensity is the last half mile.

I still like to do a vVO2max maintenance session, once per week (or fortnight) all the way through
the program, right up to final taper.

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Aerobic threshhold is best developed/kept (IMHO) by tempo runs at/just below this level of
intensity...ie marathon pace to half marathon pace.

Agreed, though I don't use marathon pace as it's neither here nor there, physiologically, as far as
I can gather. From half marathon pace to a bit less than 10k seem to be the "in" thing over here
since Billat's recent work.

She found, after measuring elite (olympic class I believe) marathon runners from various countries,
that none of them ever trained at projected marathon pace, but at what I've seen called "threshold+"
pace (more than 21k but less than 10k pace). They don't get more efficient at running at marathon
pace, they just get all over quicker.

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Since this post, things have turned around somewhat. My legs are back together again, and I've
had a few really decent workouts.

Phew!Excellent news. Had me worried there - I hate it when [censored] happens after all that training.
Hope it was just passing tiredness. Don't go mad trying to catch up on "lost" time (see Noake's
account of Ron Hill's best races, which all "happened" after he had forced layoffs due to injury or
illness, which prevented him overdoing things in the final weeks...)

Scott Williams said:

[email hidden] wrote:

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---Just hammering my few remaining workouts, shortening my taper a bit, and hoping for the best
😉 Andy Hass

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Go get 'em, Andy.

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Could that have been you I saw heading up Main, 8 am-ish in the morning a couple weeks ago? I was
driving my son to school and noticed someone looking a bit like you heading out HRD-way.

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Scott

Hey Scott, Nope, wasn't me. People used to see me all the time running my Miller/
Maple/Stadium/Oackard or Washtenaw route, but I no longer live in Ann Arbor. I moved to Belleville
the start of August. I still train in town a day or two a week (Gallup Park repeats on Tuesday last)
since I work in the cancer center. Traffic sucks! Andy Hass

steve common said:

By improving your vVO2max, the percentage you'd need to hold over 42k, in order to do the same
time, would be proportionally lower, maybe allowing you to lay off the long hard stuff enough to
refill your tanks. The idea (which is probably wrong) was that, say, you can do

Quoted message said:

22.1 km/h vVO2max and hold 80% over 42k => 17.7 km/h gives a 2h22

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if you can sharpen vVO2max up to

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22.4 km/h, then for a 2h23 marathon at 17.7 km/h => 79% vVO2max

---This is a good theory, don't know if it works though...

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I still like to do a vVO2max maintenance session, once per week (or fortnight) all the way through
the program, right up to final taper.

---Exactly. My tapers consist of first cutting out AM runs, then slicing into the long run and other
runs over 10 miles, then doing almost nothing over 9 miles the 2nd week out, and only dropping the
speed at the very end. If I'm only running half the total miles I'm used to, the track sessions
don't seem very hard anymore! This time is a little screwed up since the AM runs have been gone for
a month due to my problems. Basically... 3rd week out (this week) M-off T-8X800 W-10 T-14 F-8 (hammy
soreness) S-12 S-16 2nd out M-off T-6Xmile (last challenging session) W-9 T-8 F-9 S-10 with some
speed S-12 M-off T-8 W-7 T-6 F-off S-3 S-RACE

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Aerobic threshhold is best developed/kept (IMHO) by tempo runs at/just below this level of
intensity...ie marathon pace to half marathon pace.

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Agreed, though I don't use marathon pace as it's neither here nor there, physiologically, as far
as I can gather. From half marathon pace to a bit less than 10k seem to be the "in" thing over
here since Billat's recent work.

---I totally agree with you there. However, elite guys have pretty much developed their stamina over
the marathon and aerobic ability. The development left is in peaking those abilities best for the
race. For someone like me who is still improving a lot, long tempos are important. From personal
experience, the runs that give me the most bang for the buck are 8-10 mile tempos, which are too
long to be doing sub- half marathon pace. I usually end up doing them around MP or even a bit
slower...in trainers. Flats would put them below MP. If I hadn't blown up during my most important
training time, I would have done a few runs with like 2-3X20min at the pace you describe.

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She found, after measuring elite (olympic class I believe) marathon runners from various
countries, that none of them ever trained at projected marathon pace, but at what I've seen called
"threshold+" pace (more than 21k but less than 10k pace). They don't get more efficient at running
at marathon pace, they just get all over quicker.

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Since this post, things have turned around somewhat. My legs are back together again, and I've
had a few really decent workouts.

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Phew!Excellent news. Had me worried there - I hate it when [censored] happens after all that training.
Hope it was just passing tiredness. Don't go mad trying to catch up on "lost" time (see Noake's
account of Ron Hill's best races, which all "happened" after he had forced layoffs due to injury
or illness, which prevented him overdoing things in the final weeks...)

---We'll see. Hammys and tiredness stopped anything major yesterday, only 8 easy. Slept 11+ hours
and stretched well, we'll try some work this weekend. I haven't given up the dream yet, amazing
things can happen after a good taper. Andy Hass

steve common said:

OK the logic holds up as far as I can see. I just wonder if you couldn't do faster 10k/21k if you
tuned your training to those distances. Our late trainer (olympic selection marathoner in 2h11)
wasn't worth squat (this IS relative of course :-)))) at 10k and 21k coz he trained specifically
for marathons.

---I'm sure that's PART of it...I've been marathon-specific for almost three years now. However, the
reason for this is that I had such a breakthrough when I started marathoning. I could never find my
event at the shorter distances and didn't respond to 5K/10K interval training like most runners.
When I added some 10K-specific training this spring on top of a marathon base I did improve well at
the 10K, but it seems I am destined to be disproportionately better at the marathon no matter what
training I do. Even when I ran 800/1600/3200 in HS, I stunk at the 800 but could run 4 of them
together just a few seconds slower for the 3200. guess I'm just a freak! Andy Hass

<[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

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steve common <[email hidden]> wrote:

Here is wishing you the best!!! My best marathons occurred when I really had large doses of the
10-13 mile tempos @ marathon pace. These would hammer me but it was the best workout I could do.

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---We'll see. Hammys and tiredness stopped anything major yesterday,

only 8

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easy. Slept 11+ hours and stretched well, we'll try some work this

weekend.

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I haven't given up the dream yet, amazing things can happen after a

good

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taper. Andy Hass

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Scott Williams said:

[email hidden] wrote:

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Quoted message said:

---Just hammering my few remaining workouts, shortening my taper a bit, and hoping for the best
😉 Andy Hass

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Go get 'em, Andy.

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Could that have been you I saw heading up Main, 8 am-ish in the morning a couple weeks ago? I was
driving my son to school and noticed someone looking a bit like you heading out HRD-way.

Quoted message said:

Scott

Hey Scott, Nope, wasn't me. People used to see me all the time running my Miller/
Maple/Stadium/Oackard or Washtenaw route, but I no longer live in Ann Arbor. I moved to Belleville
the start of August. I still train in town a day or two a week (Gallup Park repeats on Tuesday
last) since I work in the cancer center. Traffic sucks! Andy Hass

Yes, traffic has far exceeded the road capacity in this area. Gawdawful.

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it seems I am destined to be disproportionately better at the marathon no matter what
training I do.

Sounds like your proportion of slow and fast twitch muscles, etc., have you destined to run
distances longer than the marathon. 🙂

--
Doug Freese [email hidden]