Marathon fuel

Drew said:

I'm looking for diet tips on how to fuel my body for a marathon. My
heart and lungs are fine on long runs however my legs start to give up
after about 16 0r 17 miles. any tips would be greatly appreciated as my
race is on june 12th.

Taking GU on the run will help.

But you shouldn't need it just to complete a long training run. I'd
suggest slowing down.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Quoted message said:

I'm looking for diet tips on how to fuel my body for a marathon. My
heart and lungs are fine on long runs however my legs start to give

up

Quoted message said:

after about 16 0r 17 miles. any tips would be greatly appreciated as

my

Quoted message said:

race is on june 12th.

When are you running, what are you eating before, and when?

If you're running out of gas on a first-thing-in-the-morning long run
fourteen hours after your last meal, you may try eating a little
something before heading out the door. In which case, the more easily
digested, the better, e.g. a slice or two of toast and jam and/or
sports drink.

Some ultra runners will eat fatty breakfasts before running, like a few
dozen eggs, a plate of bacon, and a large suet and lard milkshake; but
they're running 20 minute miles. IMO it's less advisable if you're
keeping any kind of pace, but it's your body and feel free to
experiment with it.

And yeah, try gels especially if you plan to use them in your race.
Some brands give me pretty severe digestive distress when running -
I'll never give Hammer Gel or Cytomax a third chance, but seem OK with
Carb Boom (the tastiest I've tried too) - something to keep in mind if
trying gels for the first time. Most of my long runs are in the city,
and I'll occasionally just stop for a muffin or doughnut if I want
something to eat.

Dear Mister Obvious........Your legs are supposed to be tired after
jogging 17 miles.

Mike C said:

Donovan Rebbechi said:

Taking GU on the run will help.

But you shouldn't need it just to complete a long training run. I'd
suggest slowing down.

I have to insert a bunch of "???????" marks after that
statement....why, if you are going to use something in the race would
you not want to experiment with it in training?????????

But that's a non sequitur. Trying it out is a good idea, because experimenting
on race day is a bad idea.

But that doesn't alter the fact that you should be able to complete a 16 mile
training run without bonking, with or without GU or gatorade or whatever.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Donovan Rebbechi said:

But that's a non sequitur. Trying it out is a good idea, because

experimenting

Quoted message said:

on race day is a bad idea.

But that doesn't alter the fact that you should be able to complete a

16 mile

Quoted message said:

training run without bonking, with or without GU or gatorade or

whatever.

Quoted message said:

On some level, I agree with you...but it begs the question "why would
you want to?" Again, presuming one is training for a race of
marathon-ish distance and will be using a certain fuel on that day,
testing it out in training is critically important, even on runs
shorter than 16. Most of us will start the refueling process well
before that mark on race day so it is a good idea to test that strategy
in training to make sure it works on race day.

But as we all note so frequently, we're all different...what works for
me won't necessarily work for you, and vice versa. Or something like
that.

Mike C

Mike C said:

Donovan Rebbechi said:

But that's a non sequitur. Trying it out is a good idea, because
experimenting on race day is a bad idea.

But that doesn't alter the fact that you should be able to complete a 16
mile training run without bonking, with or without GU or gatorade or
whatever.

On some level, I agree with you...but it begs the question "why would
you want to?"

Why would you want to what ? Complete a training run without GU ? Because it
costs money, and you don't (or shouldn't) need it.

You don't need to test out your supplements on every training run you perform.
I had already used it in a few half marathon races, and on a training run prior
to my race.

Quoted message said:

Again, presuming one is training for a race of
marathon-ish distance and will be using a certain fuel on that day,
testing it out in training is critically important, even on runs
shorter than 16.

You only need to test it a couple of times to know that it works. Preferably
under race-specific circumstances (e.g. a shorter race like a half, or a
long training run)

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Drew said:

I'm looking for diet tips on how to fuel my body for a marathon. My
heart and lungs are fine on long runs however my legs start to give

up

Quoted message said:

after about 16 0r 17 miles. any tips would be greatly appreciated as

my

Quoted message said:

race is on june 12th.

How many times have you run 15 or more miles? If you haven't worked up
to that distance all the gu, powerbar, energydrink won't get you there.

In my experience I would run 4 or 5 15 milers before I started to add
mileage to my long run. And before that I would have a few months of
10-13 milers before I moved up to 15.

Having said that energy on the run is highly individual. I prefer solid
stuff like powerbars. A friend can't eat them without taking a bathroom
break 30 minutes later. Drinks set up in my stomach like a brick and
I'm usually forced to have to walk to ease the cramps. Now is the time
to experiment with what works best for you.

Just don't expect that your energy supply will have more impact on your
leg endurance than actual running will.

Andy

You make some good points...I suppose that I presumed some of the
meaning of what I wrote would come across just as I was thinking it, in
that I'm not advocating using supplements for runs shorter than,say, an
hour...beyond that point it's not a bad idea to have at least a drink
with some sort of electrolytes, if not calories (depending on personal
preference, goals and purpose of the given training run)...

Certainly a 4-mile run needs nothing. And yes, a 16-mile run can be
done without much more than water...I would have either Cytomax or
Nuun, perhaps not much else (depending on what other training I might
be doing that day or the next day). For a neophyte marathoner, which
is what it sounds like the OP might be, experimentation with everything
would be mandated, though it might be a little late in the game.

Moreover, as others have noted, the real question for the OP pertains
to fitness levels just a few weeks out from the marathon...a 16-17 mile
run at this point should not be a struggle. While fueling on the run
will help to a degree, it won't turn that distance into a breezy,
effortless jaunt without the right training.

Mike C

Donovan Rebbechi said:

Mike C said:

Donovan Rebbechi said:

But that's a non sequitur. Trying it out is a good idea, because
experimenting on race day is a bad idea.

But that doesn't alter the fact that you should be able to

complete a 16

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

mile training run without bonking, with or without GU or gatorade

or

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

whatever.

On some level, I agree with you...but it begs the question "why

would

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

you want to?"

Why would you want to what ? Complete a training run without GU ?

Because it

Quoted message said:

costs money, and you don't (or shouldn't) need it.

You don't need to test out your supplements on every training run you

perform.

Quoted message said:

I had already used it in a few half marathon races, and on a training

run prior

Quoted message said:

to my race.

Quoted message said:

Again, presuming one is training for a race of
marathon-ish distance and will be using a certain fuel on that day,
testing it out in training is critically important, even on runs
shorter than 16.

You only need to test it a couple of times to know that it works.

Preferably

Quoted message said:

under race-specific circumstances (e.g. a shorter race like a half,

or a

Quoted message said:

long training run)

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Donovan Rebbechi said:

On 2005-05-05, Mike C <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Why would you want to what ? Complete a training run without GU ? Because it
costs money, and you don't (or shouldn't) need it.

While it's certainly possible to complete a 16M training run without any
fuel, it's a pretty stupid thing to do. A major point of "training" is
to be able to do it again as soon as possible. By taking in some fuel
during long training runs, one is better able to recover and thus train
more. For maximum training efficiency, I recommend some form of fuel for
anything much over an hour.

--
- The Trailrunner

Anti-Spam Alert: If you wish to reply, cut the *BS*

Trails of the Diablo Valley
*Running - Hiking - Nature*
http://www.geocities.com/yosemite/trails/6016/

gym.gravity said:

h squared said:

Quoted message said:

Eat [censored]. it's all a man needs.

but should he bring his own supply or rely on the questionable [censored]
supplied by the race organization??
h

you can't avoid your favorite topics, can you?

i'm just trying to learn here, dan 😉
h

x-no-archive: yes

Donovan Rebbechi said:

The Trailrunner said:

Donovan Rebbechi said:

On 2005-05-05, Mike C <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Why would you want to what ? Complete a training run without GU ? Because it
costs money, and you don't (or shouldn't) need it.

While it's certainly possible to complete a 16M training run without any
fuel, it's a pretty stupid thing to do.

If that's true, then there are many "stupid" runners who also happen to be
very fast, and don't find 2hr-2:30 training runs all that stressful.

Quoted message said:

A major point of "training" is
to be able to do it again as soon as possible. By taking in some fuel
during long training runs, one is better able to recover

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Do you have any sources to support this ? It is plausible as far as theories
go, but you're going to get differences depending on duration, level of
fitness, intensity of effort, difficulty of the long run compared to other
parts of the training program, etc -- so a source that actually verifies/
quantifies it would be interesting.

I personally find it inconsistent with my own experience. I've found the most
stressful things in terms of recovery are speed work (including races), and
accumulated stress from overall training load. But maybe I just haven't run
long and hard enough without fueling to see this effect that you're talking
about (always took some sort of fuel for long races, longest training run is
about 2:15 or so).

Cheers,

I've never needed this on long runs, and I run slow. Usually I'll down
a big Gatorade before the run, with water during the run. Once or twice
I've felt like I need fuel as I was running, but that was usually cause
I hadn't eaten much all day. I had 2 gels on my marathon, a little
sports drink maybe every 4 miles, water during the rest of the breaks,
and I was fine. Definitely didn't need more than that. What would have
helped me a lot more was if I had put in more miles during the months
before the race.

x-no-archive: yes

The Trailrunner said:

Donovan Rebbechi said:

Do you have any sources to support this ? It is plausible as far as
theories go, but you're going to get differences depending on
duration, level of fitness, intensity of effort, difficulty of the
long run compared to other parts of the training program, etc -- so a
source that actually verifies/
quantifies it would be interesting.

Somehow, I knew you'd be more interested in sources than in using a
little common sense. A typical runner stores 2000 usable calories
assuming they have properly fueled ahead of time. That same typical
runner burns about 100 calories a mile. So while it is possible to run
16M without refueling, the margin of error is pretty thin. If you are
one of the ones that burn 125 a mile, you'll be totally depleted at the
end of the run. I assume I don't have to point you to the literature on
depletion runs. Irregardless, if you want to be able to do long runs
more often, not taking oneself to the edge of depletion is one way to
make that progression. And FWIW, I typically do 2-3 runs of 16M or more
a week.

What does depletion mean? I've never had a problem on long runs like
this. I run slow, but I seem to finish without any problem, and keep a
fairly consistent pace. The only thing I take in is water, but I do
drink ~32 oz of Gatorade about 15 minutes before I start.

rick++ wrote:

But you can learn to eat.

Quoted message said:

That guy who is trying to reach 300 miles in a single
multi-day run mentions eating pizza on his long runs.
Something that rich and greasy is hard to digest
while running until you get used to it.

Don't forget the cheesecake that he had at same time 😉 I forget what DK
said he drinks.

Dot

--
"Dream Big, and dare to fail." --- Norman Vaughn
who was with Byrd in Antarctica and whose 99th birthday was Dec 19, 2004

Mike C said:

But as we all note so frequently, we're all different...what works for
me won't necessarily work for you, and vice versa. Or something like
that.

More importantly, what works one day for a given person may or may not
work the next - weather, heat/cold acclimation, conditioning, intensity,
mental state, sleep, random variation, etc. all play a role in what
works. We have negligible spring to acclimatize.

Dot

--
"Dream Big, and dare to fail." --- Norman Vaughn
who was with Byrd in Antarctica and whose 99th birthday was Dec 19, 2004

Quoted message said:

Drew said:

I'm looking for diet tips on how to fuel my body for a marathon. My
heart and lungs are fine on long runs however my legs start to give

up

Quoted message said:

after about 16 0r 17 miles. any tips would be greatly appreciated as

my

Quoted message said:

race is on june 12th.

How many times have you run 15 or more miles? If you haven't worked up
to that distance all the gu, powerbar, energydrink won't get you there.

Good point. I know in my case, that's usually the critical issue. Am I
new to the distance / duration?

Quoted message said:

Just don't expect that your energy supply will have more impact on your
leg endurance than actual running will.

Really good point.

Dot

--
"Dream Big, and dare to fail." --- Norman Vaughn
who was with Byrd in Antarctica and whose 99th birthday was Dec 19, 2004

"But as we all note
So frequently,

We're all different...what works for me
Won't necessarily work
For you,

And vice versa.
Or something like that."
~ Mike C

"More importantly,
What works one day for a given person
May or may not
Work the next ~ Weather, heat/cold acclimation,
Conditioning, intensity, mental state,

Sleep, random variation,
Etc.. all play a role in what works.

We have negligible spring
To acclimatize."
~ Dot

"How come,
Capsicum ~ ?"
~ Folly

"Who's
Singing from Mike D?
~ Twittering

The Trailrunner said:

Somehow, I knew you'd be more interested in sources than in using a
little common sense. A typical runner stores 2000 usable calories
assuming they have properly fueled ahead of time. That same typical
runner burns about 100 calories a mile. So while it is possible to

run

Quoted message said:

16M without refueling, the margin of error is pretty thin.

My common sense often leads me up the wrong path, but haven you
forgotten the percentage of fat utilized during that run?

Quoted message said:

If you are one of the ones that burn 125 a mile, you'll be totally

depleted

Quoted message said:

at the end of the run. I assume I don't have to point you to the

literature

Quoted message said:

on depletion runs.

Don't have a clue about the literature - all I know that it doesn feel
dood to end up totally depleted - but could you give me the basic
storyline?

Why does recovery take longer when youe gone totally depleted than when
youe finished the run with just a tiny bit left in the glygocen tank?

What about the purposeful depletion run before the carboloading? Is the
physiological state different from that reached by a long run where you
end up depleted by accident?

Quoted message said:

Irregardless, if you want to be able to do long runs more often, not

taking

Quoted message said:

oneself to the edge of depletion is one way to make that progression.

And

Quoted message said:

FWIW, I typically do 2-3 runs of 16M or more a week.

I expected you to start burning fat earlier than most and better than
most.

FWIW the literature I'm familiar with says that to optimize recovery
one should begin to fill up the tank about fifteen minutes before the
end of the run and follow up with the 3/1 carbs/protein mix ASAP, with
a full meal within an hour.

Or have I gotten this wrong, too?

Anders

Quoted message said:

Drew said:

I'm looking for diet tips on how to fuel my body for a marathon. My
heart and lungs are fine on long runs however my legs start to give

up

Quoted message said:

after about 16 0r 17 miles. any tips would be greatly appreciated

as

Quoted message said:

my

Quoted message said:

race is on june 12th.

How many times have you run 15 or more miles? If you haven't worked

up

Quoted message said:

to that distance all the gu, powerbar, energydrink won't get you

there.

Quoted message said:

In my experience I would run 4 or 5 15 milers before I started to add
mileage to my long run. And before that I would have a few months of
10-13 milers before I moved up to 15.

Having said that energy on the run is highly individual. I prefer

solid

Quoted message said:

stuff like powerbars. A friend can't eat them without taking a

bathroom

Quoted message said:

break 30 minutes later. Drinks set up in my stomach like a brick and
I'm usually forced to have to walk to ease the cramps. Now is the

time

Quoted message said:

to experiment with what works best for you.

Just don't expect that your energy supply will have more impact on

your

Quoted message said:

leg endurance than actual running will.

Andy

I have only been running since January this year and i think i have set
the bar to high

cheers

Drew