Many questions from a Novice

"PearlJam09" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Here's my deal. I'm an ultimate frisbee player/runner. I started
running last year at the very end of August for fun, and then decided
to try my hand at a marathon. Signed up for one in October just
hoping that I'd be in good enough shape to finish it. I trained for 6
weeks continually increasing time (I didn't have a car at college, so
couldn't clock distances). I also did one single mile trial once and
came in at 6:06. October 10th came and I ran the marathon in 3:24.
Then my swim season started and I couldn't run, yadda, yadda, yadda.
I started training in the spring and ended up coming down with mono
and couldn't run or anything. I started running and playing ultimate
again in the beginning of June. I've gone from barely being able to
do 2 miles (the mono really really killed me) to doing 3 in just over
21 minutes. I'm still having problems with my knees, shins, and
ankles. Anyone know what I can do to help alleviate some of this
pain. Also, ultimate frisbee requires a quick first step as well as
an occasional all out dead sprint. What can I do to make my sprinting
faster. I imagine that as of right now, I could probably go out and
do a sub-7 single mile, but I'd like to be much quicker than that as
soon as possible, and I think my go out running for 30 minutes a day
workout isn't going to give me the results I want in the time I want
it. I also am planning on running the marathon again in October
(gonna start increasing mileage the first week in august when ultimate
is done) and hoping to qualify for Boston. Thanks for listening.

--Jake

Jake, first off - learn the art of using paragraphs. ;-)

My first thought after reading your post is to ask you what running
shoes you are using and how many miles they have been through.
Using old, worn out shoes can cause a lot of the problems you are
describing.

cheers,
--
David (in Hamilton, ON)
www.allfalldown.org
www.absolutelyaccurate.com

[email hidden] (PearlJam09) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Here's my deal. I'm an ultimate frisbee player/runner. I started
running last year at the very end of August for fun, and then decided
to try my hand at a marathon. Signed up for one in October just
hoping that I'd be in good enough shape to finish it. I trained for 6
weeks continually increasing time (I didn't have a car at college, so
couldn't clock distances). I also did one single mile trial once and
came in at 6:06. October 10th came and I ran the marathon in 3:24.
Then my swim season started and I couldn't run, yadda, yadda, yadda.
I started training in the spring and ended up coming down with mono
and couldn't run or anything. I started running and playing ultimate
again in the beginning of June. I've gone from barely being able to
do 2 miles (the mono really really killed me) to doing 3 in just over
21 minutes. I'm still having problems with my knees, shins, and
ankles. Anyone know what I can do to help alleviate some of this
pain.

Um yes, SLOW DOWN! Your injuries will miraculously dissapear.

Quoted message said:

Also, ultimate frisbee requires a quick first step as well as
an occasional all out dead sprint. What can I do to make my sprinting
faster.

Fartlek.

Quoted message said:

I imagine that as of right now, I could probably go out and
do a sub-7 single mile, but I'd like to be much quicker than that as
soon as possible, and I think my go out running for 30 minutes a day
workout isn't going to give me the results I want in the time I want
it. I also am planning on running the marathon again in October
(gonna start increasing mileage the first week in august when ultimate
is done) and hoping to qualify for Boston. Thanks for listening.

--Jake

Boston? LOLOLOL Moron.

Shoes are relatively new. I believe I got them in early spring (right
before I got mono). By slowing down, are you referring to speedwise,
or do less mileage or both?

As a 21 year old, who trained for 6 weeks for his first marathon,
finishing in 3:24 (14 minutes off of qualifying for Boston) despite
being laughed at by his college roommates, and still participating in
heavy binge drinking, your mocking of me only makes me want it that
much more. To prove someone wrong when they say you can't do
something is one of the best feelings on earth, and I can assure you
that when this ultimate frisbee player goes running by you at mile 20
still smiling while you're calves are cramped up, you'll know what its
like to be mocked.

[email hidden] (PearlJam09) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Here's my deal. I'm an ultimate frisbee player/runner.

Ditto...great sport.

I started

Quoted message said:

running last year at the very end of August for fun, and then decided
to try my hand at a marathon. Signed up for one in October just
hoping that I'd be in good enough shape to finish it. I trained for 6
weeks continually increasing time (I didn't have a car at college, so
couldn't clock distances). I also did one single mile trial once and
came in at 6:06. October 10th came and I ran the marathon in 3:24.

So we've now established that you are in your 20s. = ). I love the
three month marathon prep.

Quoted message said:

Then my swim season started and I couldn't run, yadda, yadda, yadda.

Why not? Time? Running is a great compliment to swimming. It
improves your cardio (IMO) faster than swimming alone. I think that
the dry air/wet air & weight bearing/non-weight bearing both
contribute to better cardio faster.

Quoted message said:

I started training in the spring and ended up coming down with mono
and couldn't run or anything. I started running and playing ultimate
again in the beginning of June. I've gone from barely being able to
do 2 miles (the mono really really killed me) to doing 3 in just over
21 minutes. I'm still having problems with my knees, shins, and
ankles.

Ditto on the new shoes! Go to a real running store. My first sign
that my shoes are getting worn out is how my legs feel when I run on
them.

Are you running on concrete, asphalt or dirt? Ulti does not build up
the joint strength to run on concrete because you are always on the
grass. So go for dirt or at the worst asphalt.

How are your cleats? Please tell me you playing in cleats. Running
shoes are too padded for the cutting motions in ultimate and can lead
to ankle problems.

Quoted message said:

Anyone know what I can do to help alleviate some of this
pain.

If it's achy pain - ice. If it's a stiffness sort of pain, wrap the
affected area in neoprene and elevate while you sleep.

Avoid the Vitamin I (Advil, Aleve, etc.).

Also, ultimate players tend to suck at warming up and cooling down.
Out of the 120-160 folks playing summer league, I didn't see anyone
else out running to cool down (before hitting the kegs).

For warming up - I'd say run around 2 or more fields twice. Whatever
distance you choose, do the first lap really, really slow. You just
want to feel yourself settling into the run (good body position, light
steps, etc.). On the second lap try to increase your speed until you
are a medium fast run at the end. Then do some dynamic stretches.

For cooling down - do the whole process in reverse. Start with the
medium fast run and slow down to a slow jog. Complete the second lap
at a slow jog while thinking about body position and light quick
steps. When you finish do some static stretching (quad pulls,
hurdlers, etc.).

Quoted message said:

Also, ultimate frisbee requires a quick first step as well as
an occasional all out dead sprint.

Some great stuff from the UPA coaching camp on this. Sprinter drills
help build many of the muscles you need for ultimate (high knees,
skips, etc.)

Also they used resistance/buddy running. Have a friend face you. He
puts his hands on your shoulders and pushes against you. You try to
run through him. After 5-10 seconds, he releases you. Try to keep
the body position while you sprint for 15-20 yards. Repeat 10 times.

Also, lay on your stomach on the ground about 10 yards from a friend.
When you friend says go, you jump up and sprint 5-10 yards to him.
Then start the buddy running process.

Quoted message said:

What can I do to make my sprinting
faster.

Ditto on the fartleks. Fartleks are very close to what sprinting in
ultimate is like.

I imagine that as of right now, I could probably go out and

Quoted message said:

do a sub-7 single mile, but I'd like to be much quicker than that as
soon as possible, and I think my go out running for 30 minutes a day
workout isn't going to give me the results I want in the time I want
it.

Not sure what level of ultimate you are playing, but I'm always
looking for endurance.

Playing at a tournament might be a Saturday of playing from 8-5 with
no more than 10 minutes between games, and then getting up to play
from 9 until 2 on Sunday. Good endurance will get you through that
with speed for the last game on Saturday and on Sunday.

Quoted message said:

I also am planning on running the marathon again in October
(gonna start increasing mileage the first week in august when ultimate
is done) and hoping to qualify for Boston.

You must be playing summer league then...Why not start increasing your
mileage now?

The rest is just my advice on your training. Feel free to ignore it
if it doesn't work for you. = )

Right now you are running for 30 minutes 5-7 days/week (from what I
can tell from your comments).

Assuming most of those are 3+ mile runs, conservatively, you are doing
between 15 & 21 miles/week.

Maybe you could double up one run to an hour 1 hour per week. You
would want to keep a comfortable pace for this long run. A long run
will help you build endurance and I think it might help you increase
your joint strength as well.

Take the next day off.

Maybe choose use one other workout to just focus on speed work. You
probably want to spend at least 10 minutes running a slow mile (1+?).
Then work on fartlek/speed drills/suicides for 15-20 minutes. Then
spend at least 10 minutes running a slow mile (1+?) to cool down.

If you choose to do this stuff, take time to fiddle with your schedule
and your runs so that you don't get too bored or do the same thing
(especially for speed work) again and again.

Thanks for listening.

Quoted message said:

--Jake

Just my $0.02 as an ulti player/runner. Good luck!

~becca

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Also, ultimate players tend to suck at warming up and cooling down. Out of

the 120-160 folks playing summer league, I didn't see anyone else out running
to cool down (before hitting the kegs). <<

I tried to run three miles after Winter League (two games to 11 on a
Saturday afternoon) one time last January. It didn't go so well.
I usually run before Winter League now - not too long and definitely not
too fast. I don't worry about cooling down so much.

Mike

If he ran a 3:24, he can qualify for Boston.

[email hidden] (Danglynnn) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (PearlJam09) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Here's my deal. I'm an ultimate frisbee player/runner. I started
running last year at the very end of August for fun, and then decided
to try my hand at a marathon. Signed up for one in October just
hoping that I'd be in good enough shape to finish it. I trained for 6
weeks continually increasing time (I didn't have a car at college, so
couldn't clock distances). I also did one single mile trial once and
came in at 6:06. October 10th came and I ran the marathon in 3:24.
Then my swim season started and I couldn't run, yadda, yadda, yadda.
I started training in the spring and ended up coming down with mono
and couldn't run or anything. I started running and playing ultimate
again in the beginning of June. I've gone from barely being able to
do 2 miles (the mono really really killed me) to doing 3 in just over
21 minutes. I'm still having problems with my knees, shins, and
ankles. Anyone know what I can do to help alleviate some of this
pain.

Um yes, SLOW DOWN! Your injuries will miraculously dissapear.

Quoted message said:

Also, ultimate frisbee requires a quick first step as well as
an occasional all out dead sprint. What can I do to make my sprinting
faster.

Fartlek.

Quoted message said:

I imagine that as of right now, I could probably go out and
do a sub-7 single mile, but I'd like to be much quicker than that as
soon as possible, and I think my go out running for 30 minutes a day
workout isn't going to give me the results I want in the time I want
it. I also am planning on running the marathon again in October
(gonna start increasing mileage the first week in august when ultimate
is done) and hoping to qualify for Boston. Thanks for listening.

--Jake

Boston? LOLOLOL Moron.

John B. said:

If he ran a 3:24, he can qualify for Boston.

Provided that he chooses to train

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

PearlJam09 said:

As a 21 year old, who trained for 6 weeks for his first marathon,
finishing in 3:24 (14 minutes off of qualifying for Boston) despite
being laughed at by his college roommates, and still participating in
heavy binge drinking, your mocking of me only makes me want it that
much more. To prove someone wrong when they say you can't do
something is one of the best feelings on earth, and I can assure you
that when this ultimate frisbee player goes running by you at mile 20
still smiling while you're calves are cramped up, you'll know what its
like to be mocked.

He's a troll. He has bad manners. Having said that, he's right on the
money. Do some reading on marathon training. Get informed.

You can want as hard as you like, but your body can only do so much. A
well prepared runner will cruise past a badly prepared runner. It doesn't
matter how much you want to "prove someone is wrong", unless you want it
badly enough to do the required training.

BTW, I don't know about the other guy -- but I've been averaging 55 miles
per week this year, and ran a mile in 4:51 this week. I can assure you that
if you were to race me in the marathon, you would not be smiling at mile
20. I can't say for sure that I'm more talented than you -- but I train and
you don't, and because of that, I could bust your ass without breaking a sweat.
Just thought I'd share that with you.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

LOL Imagine that, a punk lecturing THE Bill Rodgers? You tried this
troll a year or so ago, and when we pressed you for details, proof of
the race and your finish, you promptly dissapeared. So, put up or
shutup. We know your a BS artist, but you're fun to toy with.

[email hidden] (PearlJam09) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

As a 21 year old, who trained for 6 weeks for his first marathon,
finishing in 3:24 (14 minutes off of qualifying for Boston) despite
being laughed at by his college roommates, and still participating in
heavy binge drinking, your mocking of me only makes me want it that
much more. To prove someone wrong when they say you can't do
something is one of the best feelings on earth, and I can assure you
that when this ultimate frisbee player goes running by you at mile 20
still smiling while you're calves are cramped up, you'll know what its
like to be mocked.

C'mon folks, remember this guy? He bragged about how he'd do, then
claimed he did great, but when pressed for a race and a date he
promptly disappeared. Don't fall for it twice.

[email hidden] (PearlJam09) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

As a 21 year old, who trained for 6 weeks for his first marathon,
finishing in 3:24 (14 minutes off of qualifying for Boston) despite
being laughed at by his college roommates, and still participating in
heavy binge drinking, your mocking of me only makes me want it that
much more. To prove someone wrong when they say you can't do
something is one of the best feelings on earth, and I can assure you
that when this ultimate frisbee player goes running by you at mile 20
still smiling while you're calves are cramped up, you'll know what its
like to be mocked.

If you would like proof of my times, it was the Hartford Marathon
sponsored by the HMF on Columbus day last year. October 10th. I
finished in 187th place. Name is Kravitz. It was a nice day out,
upper 60s if I remember correctly. I went out with a pace group that
was supposed to finish at 3:45, figuring if I got tired, I'd drop
back. At about mile 8, a volunteer rode past me on a bike and I
started talking with her. About 2 miles later, I realized that I was
no longer with my pace group, but was in fact ahead of them, so I just
kept running my own race. The first 10 miles, I averaged about an
8:15. The last 16 miles, I came back to bump my average up to 7:49,
so I ran sub 7:30s for the last 16 miles of the race. I feel that I
did a decent job of balancing water and sports drinks going 2 H2O per
1 SD to avoid cramps. My race jersey number is 115, and is still
pinned on my wall. You can probably find the photographs on the web
somewhere. The only reason why I got angry at you was because you
laughed at me and called me a moron. I think that telling someone
that they're a moron when they're looking for advice is what will
discourage them from the sport of running, and I felt that you were
out of line. I dont doubt that there are many people out there in
better shape than I am right now and that I'd get my butt whipped, all
I'm saying is that, running is about more than just what kind of shape
you're in, its also about desire. I've been there, and I know what a
marathon is like. You have to WANT to finish. It is NOT a walk in
the park. If you dont want it more than the next guy, you're gonna
get beat.

I don't know who you think I am, but I can assure you that I've never
posted here before. I've run one marathon and finished in 3:24. It
was the Hartford Marathon last year. I finished in 187th place or
somewhere thereabouts. Name is Kravitz. I remember the day like it
was yesterday. Got up at 5, ate 2 peanut butter sandwiches, a yogurt,
and a banana so that I'd be good for the 8am start. Left my house at
6ish to get there (it was still dark out). Warmed up. Last minute
decided to leave my long sleeve shirt with my parents since it was
getting nice out. Went out with a 3:45 pace group figuring if I had a
problem I'd drop back. First 8 miles were a breeze. Around this time
a volunteer on a bike rode by and I started talking to her. About
mile 10, she dropped off to keep checking her area for injuries or
whatever, so I just ran my own race. My first 10 miles averaged about
8:15 and the last 16 I averaged sub 7:30 to bring my total average
down to 7:49. I recognize that I'm not in great shape right now, but
I truly was looking for advice and DID NOT appreciate getting mocked
by someone who thinks they're amazing or whatever. Being blatantly
unprepared is going to make it difficult for me, but its not just
about training. You have to have HEART. You have to WANT it more
than the next guy, cause that's what will keep you going (at least
that's what kept me going...a friend ran the race with me, but he went
out with the 3:30 pace group and ended up dropping off and finishing
in 3:39 or so, I passed him about 100 yards before the mile 20 split
with the champion-chip thing).
I live for ultimate frisbee, so that limits my training time
right now to about 45 minutes total between work and game time. I
play 6 days a week and its alot like soccer, sprinting and jogging,
sprinting and jogging, with some standing still mixed in. I generally
play 75% of the time (substitutions are necessary so everyone can
play) and games typically last about 2 hours. Its tough to get up in
the morning before work but I'll do it if I have to, I just can't be
exhausted for days when my league plays (which is only one day a week,
and the games ACTUALLY matter). I also particpate in tourneys on the
weekends, generally playing all weekend 8 hours each day, and for
Becca and M1Ahern who will appreciate this, I played in a savage
tourney last weekend and ran cup in the zone for 4 out of our 7 games,
which for everyone else means that I ran alot and was not allowed to
sub.

This is like the radio call-in psychologists. PJ knows that eratic training
is the cause the of his injuries, but needs coaxing to realize that
consistent and gradual training would make running far more comfortable.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and for Becca and M1Ahern who will appreciate this, I played in a savage

tourney last weekend and ran cup in the zone for 4 out of our 7 games <<

For those who don't know, cup is part of a zone defense in Ultimate.
Three people chase the disc from thrower to thrower, the other four are
responsible for preventing downfield throws. As a result, the people playing
cup have to run their asses off.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This is like the radio call-in psychologists. PJ knows that eratic training

is the cause the of his injuries, but needs coaxing to realize that consistent
and gradual training would make running far more comfortable. <<

I've been, and to a certain extent still am, in his position. You want to
do all these running things but you also have other athletic interests you want
to pursue. I actually started playing Ultimate because I thought it would be a
way to get some speed work on the cheap. That didn't work out too well but I
wound up liking Ultimate a lot and have been playing ever since.
To be honest, I wasn't paying attention to the original question. If it
has to do with training for a marathon while maintaining an Ultimate schedule,
I'd say the most important thing would be to make you get in a regular long
run, but building up the distance gradually. Look at your schedule and decide
what day would be best for a long run (I wouldn't advise the day after your
league games).

Mike

On 2004-07-15, PearlJam09 <[email hidden]> wrote:
[snip]

Quoted message said:

Being blatantly
unprepared is going to make it difficult for me, but its not just
about training.

That and natural ability. And that's about it.

Quoted message said:

You have to have HEART.

Having "HEART" doesn't make a hell of a lot of difference. You should assume
that everyone is going to give very close to 100% in the race. "Wanting it more
than the next guy" makes a difference -- but only if you're very evenly
matched.

I've outkicked "the next guy" in races because I "wanted it" more than him. But
"the next guy" really was "the next guy" -- he was within a few seconds of me
for the whole race. The guys who are fit enough to run a 10k so much as 30
seconds faster than me (5 seconds per mile) are going to finish in front of me
no matter how much "heart" I have.

Quoted message said:

You have to WANT it more
than the next guy, cause that's what will keep you going (at least
that's what kept me going...a friend ran the race with me, but he went
out with the 3:30 pace group and ended up dropping off and finishing
in 3:39 or so, I passed him about 100 yards before the mile 20 split
with the champion-chip thing).

Yes, that's because he wasn't fit enough to maintain that pace though, it
has little to do with him not "having heart". In the mile race this weekend,
one of my competitors did the first quarter in 68 seconds (his average pace per
quarter was 74 seconds). I passed him on the last lap, and finished about 3
seconds in front. But that's the same margin I beat him by the last time I
raced him. I didn't pass him because he didn't "have heart", I passed him
because he wasn't fit enough to run the mile at the same pace as me (not with
that pacing strategy anyway). Meanwhile, a guy right out in front started with
a 62 second opening quarter. Despite him "not having heart" and closing with a
pedestrian 75 seconds (5 seconds slower than my last quarter), he won the race
by over 10 seconds (sub 4:30)

The bottom line is that "having heart" is not in itself going to reduce your
marathon time by 14 minutes. To do that requires a substantial improvement in
fitness.

Quoted message said:

I live for ultimate frisbee, so that limits my training time
right now to about 45 minutes total between work and game time. I
play 6 days a week and its alot like soccer, sprinting and jogging,
sprinting and jogging, with some standing still mixed in. I generally

Running is a demanding sport. If you want to do several other sports, that's up
to you -- but it's not going to help you become a better runner. You don't owe
us any excuses. But you owe it to yourself to set goals that are commensurate
with the time you're willing to commit to the sport. Running a Boston Qualifier
is not a realistic goal unless you're prepared to do some serious marathon
training (you're not) or you're extremely talented (you're not).

If you're only willing to undertake a modest training schedule, you'd be much
better off competing in 5k races and training consistently (not necessarily
spending a huge amount of time training, but just being consistent). That way,
when you *do* find more time to prepare for a good marathon, you're not
starting from square 1.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

M1ahearn said:

To be honest, I wasn't paying attention to the original question. If it
has to do with training for a marathon while maintaining an Ultimate schedule,

It has to do with going from non-runner to Boston Qualifier in 12 weeks, despite
being unwilling to do anything resembling marathon training, and making a lot
of excuses for not training. Go figure.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

To be honest, I wasn't paying attention to the original question.

If it

Quoted message said:

has to do with training for a marathon while maintaining an Ultimate

schedule,

It has to do with going from non-runner to Boston Qualifier in 12 weeks,
despite
being unwilling to do anything resembling marathon training, and making a lot
of excuses for not training. Go figure. <<

So from 3:24 to 3:10 in twelve weeks? I'm assuming he's starting from a
weak distance base? Actually, based on the stuff I remember him having
written, I think he could do it[1] but I think the chances of injury make it
not worthwhile. If you don't want to cut back on Ultimate to begin with, why
follow a program that could lead to enforced cessation of Ultimate while you
wait for various injuries to heal?

Mike

[1] - He ran 3:24 off little training, right? What would happen if he started
doing one long run and one speed workout a week and otherwise kept to his
current schedule. Most likely, he'd get injured. But if he didn't, and some
other things went right (friendly course and good weather), I think he'd have a
shot at 3:10.

M1ahearn said:

So from 3:24 to 3:10 in twelve weeks?

No. Even using the WAVA tables to predict performances (and all the generous
assumptions that such a prediction entails), he's at about a 3:35 now.

So he needs to improve by about a minute per mile over shorter distances, *and*
have good enough endurance to run a marathon at a comparable WAVA performance
to his 5k. That doesn't strike me as a 12 week project.

Quoted message said:

I'm assuming he's starting from a
weak distance base? Actually, based on the stuff I remember him having
written, I think he could do it[1] but I think the chances of injury make it
not worthwhile.

Chances ? He already is suffering aches and pains on a fairly modest training
load.

Quoted message said:

If you don't want to cut back on Ultimate to begin with, why
follow a program that could lead to enforced cessation of Ultimate while you
wait for various injuries to heal?

Yep.

Quoted message said:

[1] - He ran 3:24 off little training, right?

Yes, so he'll probably be able to run 3:24 again, if he also repeats "little
training".

I would argue that he'll also end up close to that even if he trains harder.

The "problem" is that even "little training" will produce fairly rapid adaptions
at this point. You can't double the already rapid beginner gains by doubling the
training load. There is a point beyond which it simply cannot adapt any faster,
and pushing training load beyond there is counterproductive. And the fact that
he's doing all of this other activity makes him prone to reaching that point
much sooner than others.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/