Man needs life; instead vandalizes bike trail

[[email protected]]

On Jan 5, 7:22 pm, "Bill Sornson" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Leo Lichtman wrote:
> > "Michael Baldwin" wrote: You sir are absolutely correct. I don't know
> > that it wasn't one
> >> individual's lone actions. Hell, my friend may have strung the stress
> >> cord himself in the hope of being martyred.
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > That's good, Michael. Get sarcastic when ou are caught with your
> > pants down. For your information, I know none of my left-wing
> > friends would pull a stunt like that.
>
> Radical environmentalists (polite term) have done a /lot/ of things like
> that -- from stringing piano wire across biking trails

Those were environmentalists who did that? I didn't realize. Years ago
we had incidents where people were putting cinderblocks on windshield-
high platforms and painting the whole thing black and putting them on
rural highways at night. Those people must have been environmentalists
too, right?

> to burning down
> entire developments. Don't you read the news, Leo?

Uh, what news are you reading that says anything about
'environmentalists' burning down entire developments? The mainstream
media must have conveniently forgot to report that because they are
run by a left wing environmentalist cabal.

Robert

 

[Bill Sornson]

[email protected] wrote:
> On Jan 5, 7:22 pm, "Bill Sornson" <[email protected]> wrote:

>> Don't you read the news, Leo?

> Uh, what news are you reading that says anything about
> 'environmentalists' burning down entire developments? The mainstream
> media must have conveniently forgot to report that because they are
> run by a left wing environmentalist cabal.

Three-second Google.

http://www.adl.org/learn/extremism_in_the_news/Other_Extremism/San_Diego_Arson.htm

http://www.factnet.org/cults/earth_liberation_front/vail_fire.html

http://www.planetark.org/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/10933/newsDate/24-May-2001/story.htm

http://www.heritage.org/Research/EnergyandEnvironment/bg764.cfm

And hundreds more.

JFTR, I posted an article about the "hole digger" early this AM on AM-B.
One person who /says/ he's an environmentalist is V@ndem@n, and he has
indeed expressed...well let's just say solidarity with people who have
booby-trapped mountain bike trails with piano wire, nail-filled boards,
holes and the like. People can read the thread to see what Leo said and why
I replied as I did.

HTH.

 

[ZBicyclist]

Michael Baldwin wrote:
> ..I'm into motorcycles as well and earlier today I posted the
> following reply (in another NG) regarding so called "vandalism" on
> _designated_ ORV trails funded in part and maintained by local club
> riders...
>
> ..in the mid 90's a veteran racer friend of mine was almost
> decapitated while pre-running a section the Alligator Enduro
> course...seems a pro-earth / anti-human group had strung camouflage
> stress cord across the trail...after news of the incident circulated,
> re-con riders discovered several more booby traps along the
> course...my friend, a survivor of two wars, fifty years of racing and
> seventy years of living life to its fullest, was nearly murdered and
> forever sidelined by some anonymous extreme left-wing domestic
> terrorist group...

Regardless of who did this, it's a criminal thing to do. My sympathy to your
friend.

 

[[email protected]]

On Jan 6, 9:46 am, "ZBicyclist" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Michael Baldwin wrote:
> > ..I'm into motorcycles as well and earlier today I posted the
> > following reply (in another NG) regarding so called "vandalism" on
> > _designated_ ORV trails funded in part and maintained by local club
> > riders...
>
> > ..in the mid 90's a veteran racer friend of mine was almost
> > decapitated while pre-running a section the Alligator Enduro
> > course...seems a pro-earth / anti-human group had strung camouflage
> > stress cord across the trail...after news of the incident circulated,
> > re-con riders discovered several more booby traps along the
> > course...my friend, a survivor of two wars, fifty years of racing and
> > seventy years of living life to its fullest, was nearly murdered and
> > forever sidelined by some anonymous extreme left-wing domestic
> > terrorist group...
>
> Regardless of who did this, it's a criminal thing to do. My sympathy to your
> friend.

Amen.

While I agree with much of the /agenda/ of many of these self-
professed environmentalists, I repudiate and deplore their /
methods/.

Harming OR endangering people or property is beyond the pale.

Worse, it's counter-productive.

ELF took credit for burning down a luxury apartment complex only a few
miles from my house. Who'd that help?

Always remember, though: beware anybody who tries to characterize an
entire "movement" by the infinitesimally small percentage of people
who take this route.

It's a bell curve, and nobody should judge the masses by those out at
the thin branches.

 

[Michael Johnson]

Bill Sornson wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
>> On Jan 5, 7:22 pm, "Bill Sornson" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>> Don't you read the news, Leo?
>
>> Uh, what news are you reading that says anything about
>> 'environmentalists' burning down entire developments? The mainstream
>> media must have conveniently forgot to report that because they are
>> run by a left wing environmentalist cabal.
>
> Three-second Google.
>
> http://www.adl.org/learn/extremism_in_the_news/Other_Extremism/San_Diego_Arson.htm
>
> http://www.factnet.org/cults/earth_liberation_front/vail_fire.html
>
> http://www.planetark.org/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/10933/newsDate/24-May-2001/story.htm
>
> http://www.heritage.org/Research/EnergyandEnvironment/bg764.cfm
>
> And hundreds more.
>
> JFTR, I posted an article about the "hole digger" early this AM on AM-B.
> One person who /says/ he's an environmentalist is V@ndem@n, and he has
> indeed expressed...well let's just say solidarity with people who have
> booby-trapped mountain bike trails with piano wire, nail-filled boards,
> holes and the like. People can read the thread to see what Leo said and why
> I replied as I did.

Unfortunately, there are people who are capable of violent actions
without regard for human life and suffering, all across the political
spectrum. On the one end, we have "radical environmentalists" resorting
to various kinds of actions to prevent what they see as predation on
natural areas. On the other end, we have "abortion opponents" bombing
clinics and murdering physicians to "protect life". Somewhere in the
middle, or out on some other fringe, we have "survivalists" and "militia
men" bombing federal buildings, shooting at tax collectors, and planning
the overthrow of The Government to "protect freedom".

The fact that some people are capable of violence in the name (according
to them, at any rate) of some cause does not make all proponents of that
cause or all people who lean in that political direction wrong, or monsters.

I personally consider myself to be an environmentalist, and politically
I'm about as far left as you can get, but I in no way support the use of
violent action to further what I think of as progressive political
goals, nor do any of the politically "liberal" people that I know.
That's just wrong. It's wrong when governments use force and the
promotion of fear to further their ends (see Vietnam, George W. Bush,
Iraq, Department of Homeland Security, Transportation Safety
Administration, Adolf ******, Gestapo, Reichstag Fire, Apartheid) and
it's wrong when individuals do it (see IRA, Osama bin Laden, al Qaeda,
Timothy McVie, tree spiking, Atlanta clinic bombings).

Can we get back to talking about bicycles now?

Mike Johnson

 

[[email protected]]

On Jan 5, 11:59 pm, "Bill Sornson" <[email protected]> wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
> > On Jan 5, 7:22 pm, "Bill Sornson" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> Don't you read the news, Leo?
> > Uh, what news are you reading that says anything about
> > 'environmentalists' burning down entire developments? The mainstream
> > media must have conveniently forgot to report that because they are
> > run by a left wing environmentalist cabal.
>
> Three-second Google.
>
> http://www.adl.org/learn/extremism_in_the_news/Other_Extremism/San_Di...
>
> http://www.factnet.org/cults/earth_liberation_front/vail_fire.html
>
> http://www.planetark.org/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/10933/newsDate/24-...
>
> http://www.heritage.org/Research/EnergyandEnvironment/bg764.cfm
>
> And hundreds more.


Nothing whatsoever about 'eco-terrorists' burning down, as you said,
entire developments. There have been some incidents of lunatics
burning buildings here and there, as they did to a few ski resort
buildings up on Vail mountain. But I guess that doesn't sound as
exciting as 'entire developments.'

The only thing that comes close to the arson of an 'entire
development' that I can think of occurred at the Hunters Brooke
subdivision outside DC a few years ago when dozens of new houses were
torched. That was blamed on 'suspected eco-terrorists' and all the
talk radio freaks were calling for these 'domestic terrorists' to be
sent to Guantanamo ... until somebody confessed doing it for racist
reasons, that is. But I guess Rush forgot to mention that part right?

And that incident in Vail has been soundly condemned by people who
have been considered 'radical environmentalists.' For instance:

"Mike Lewinski, an Earth First! member in Boulder, stated, "We have
been actively opposing Vail Resorts' expansion for over a year now
with honesty and integrity. The Earth Liberation Front, if it is
responsible for the fires atop Vail mountain, is destroying all we
have worked for. I would rather see Vail Resorts, through all their
duplicity and greed, destroy the Two Elk Roadless Area, than have some
cowardly actions and threats erode the growing opposition to Vail's
rapacious plans and the increasing support for protection of
Colorado's forests and its wildlife.''

Robert

 

[[email protected]]

On Jan 5, 9:17 pm, [email protected] (Michael Baldwin) wrote:

....we need laws that insure Mr. Wilson's actions
> and others like him are treated as acts of domestic terrorism...example,
> if a bomb goes off in a trash can next to a trail head parking lot and
> nobody is serious hurt by the blast, is it "just" vandalism?....

You think people suspected of 'domestic terrorism' should be treated
the same way we treat other suspected terrorists, that is, held
indefinitely without the due process that is traditionally guaranteed
to suspected criminals in civilized countries? And if so, where are
you going to draw the line between 'domestic terrorism' and regular
crime?

Mr. Wilson isn't a 'terrorist,' for Christ's sake, he's just another
retarded sociopathic criminal.

Damn this country is going down the crapper in a big hurry.

 

[Michael Baldwin]

>You think people suspected of 'domestic terrorism' should be treated
>the same way we treat other suspected terrorists, that is,
>held indefinitely without the due process that is traditionally
guaranteed
>to suspected criminals in civilized countries? And if so, where
>are you going to draw the line between 'domestic terrorism'
>and regular crime?

...your words not mine...
...now let's address your question....use a shovel to smash an inanimate
object like an unoccupied port-a-john, that's vandalism...use a shovel
to smash a person, that's a crime...use a shovel as a tool in the
construction of a booby trap, that's terrorism...

...oh, in the future, please don't attempt to sway the argument with
assumptions, you've done it twice now...(ref. gitmo)

Best Regards - Mike Baldwin

 

[[email protected]]

On Jan 6, 12:51 pm, [email protected] wrote:
> On Jan 5, 11:59 pm, "Bill Sornson" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > [email protected] wrote:
> > > On Jan 5, 7:22 pm, "Bill Sornson" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >> Don't you read the news, Leo?
> > > Uh, what news are you reading that says anything about
> > > 'environmentalists' burning down entire developments? The mainstream
> > > media must have conveniently forgot to report that because they are
> > > run by a left wing environmentalist cabal.
>
> > Three-second Google.
>
> >http://www.adl.org/learn/extremism_in_the_news/Other_Extremism/San_Di...
>
> >http://www.factnet.org/cults/earth_liberation_front/vail_fire.html
>
> >http://www.planetark.org/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/10933/newsDate/24-...
>
> >http://www.heritage.org/Research/EnergyandEnvironment/bg764.cfm
>
> > And hundreds more.
>
> Nothing whatsoever about 'eco-terrorists' burning down, as you said,
> entire developments. There have been some incidents of lunatics
> burning buildings here and there, as they did to a few ski resort
> buildings up on Vail mountain. But I guess that doesn't sound as
> exciting as 'entire developments.'

Robert,

Actually, it /has/ happened:

http://www.primenews.com/arson.html

But, again, it's irrational to judge a philosophy/POV comprising
millions, tens of millions, or hundreds of millions (environmental
concern) by the actions of the destructive fringe /few/.

 

[Michael Baldwin]

>Mike Lewinski, an Earth First! member in Boulder, stated, "We
>have been actively opposing Vail Resorts' expansion for over a
>year now with honesty and integrity. The Earth Liberation Front,
>if it is responsible for the fires atop Vail mountain,
>is destroying all we have worked for. I would rather
>see Vail Resorts, through all their duplicity and greed, destroy
>the Two Elk Roadless Area, than have some cowardly actions
>and threats erode the growing opposition to Vail's rapacious plans
>and the increasing support for protection of Colorado's forests and
>its wildlife.''

...simply over embellished code for "I got my piece of the mountain with
it's uncluttered views and peaceful solitude and I don't need it ruined
by anyone seeking the same."...

...I'll be impressed with these pro-earth / anti-human trust funders
when they demolish all of their own man made monuments of self
absorption and return their bought and paid for land back to mother
nature and move to the city...

Best Regards - Mike Baldwin

 

[[email protected]]

On Jan 6, 4:07 pm, [email protected] (Michael Baldwin) wrote:

> ..simply over embellished code for "I got my piece of the mountain with
> it's uncluttered views and peaceful solitude and I don't need it ruined
> by anyone seeking the same."...
>
> ..I'll be impressed with these pro-earth / anti-human trust funders
> when they demolish all of their own man made monuments of self
> absorption and return their bought and paid for land back to mother
> nature and move to the city...

More interesting assumptions Mike. You think these environmentalist
guys own a lot of land near Vail?

How do you give land 'back to mother nature?' If I were rich or
fortunate enough to own land near Vail, I wouldn't be giving it back
to anybody. I would keep it just like it is, and give it to my kids.
Except I would probably build a few sweet singletracks on it.

Robert

 

[[email protected]]

On Jan 6, 3:48 pm, [email protected] (Michael Baldwin) wrote:
> >You think people suspected of 'domestic terrorism' should be treated
> >the same way we treat other suspected terrorists, that is,
> >held indefinitely without the due process that is traditionally
> guaranteed
> >to suspected criminals in civilized countries? And if so, where
> >are you going to draw the line between 'domestic terrorism'
> >and regular crime?
>
> ..your words not mine...
> ..now let's address your question....use a shovel to smash an inanimate
> object like an unoccupied port-a-john, that's vandalism...use a shovel
> to smash a person, that's a crime...use a shovel as a tool in the
> construction of a booby trap, that's terrorism...

Terrorism....wow...that's a pretty heavy word for digging a hole in
the ground, don't you think. It's easy to see how a 'war on terrorism'
-- if it were indeed possible to fight a tactic -- can get out of
hand.

They're coming for us, with shovels, to build holes in our bike paths.
Several really nice shovels were reported stolen from a Russian
arsenal. Run for your lives!!


> ..oh, in the future, please don't attempt to sway the argument with
> assumptions, you've done it twice now...(ref. gitmo)

 

[Tom Keats]

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (Michael Baldwin) writes:
> Tom reminds me
>
>>If nobody was actually physically injured as a consequence of
>>Warren John Wilson's actions, it'll be much more difficult to
>>impugn him for assault, let alone any kind of intent.
>>That's just how The System works.
>
> ..you are correct...that is how The System works, but that doesn't mean
> The System can't be improved...cops have taught me, most DA's only want
> one thing, victory....that's how they keep their jobs...I understand the
> reality of the situation...we need laws that insure Mr. Wilson's actions
> and others like him are treated as acts of domestic terrorism...example,
> if a bomb goes off in a trash can next to a trail head parking lot and
> nobody is serious hurt by the blast, is it "just" vandalism?....

Warren John Wilson didn't do any bombing.

He's more of an Ernest T. Bass than a Timothy McVeigh.

It is unjust to demand an eye for a tooth.
A tooth will be sufficient. The punishment
/must/ be proportional to the offense. And
it must be well-considered, and not a knee-jerk
reaction.

There's a danger (or two or three) in playing the
"terrorism" card so off-handedly.

And vandalism isn't "just" vandalism. It's a
serious charge.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

 

[Luke]

In article <[email protected]>, Bill Sornson
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Leo Lichtman wrote:
> > "Michael Baldwin" wrote: You sir are absolutely correct. I don't know
> > that it wasn't one
> >> individual's lone actions. Hell, my friend may have strung the stress
> >> cord himself in the hope of being martyred.
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> > That's good, Michael. Get sarcastic when ou are caught with your
> > pants down. For your information, I know none of my left-wing
> > friends would pull a stunt like that.
>
> Radical environmentalists (polite term) have done a /lot/ of things like
> that -- from stringing piano wire across biking trails to burning down
> entire developments. Don't you read the news, Leo?

Evidently Leo doesn't consider those scoundrels his friends.

 

[Bill Sornson]

Luke wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, Bill Sornson
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Leo Lichtman wrote:
>>> "Michael Baldwin" wrote: You sir are absolutely correct. I don't
>>> know that it wasn't one
>>>> individual's lone actions. Hell, my friend may have strung the
>>>> stress cord himself in the hope of being martyred.
>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>>> That's good, Michael. Get sarcastic when ou are caught with your
>>> pants down. For your information, I know none of my left-wing
>>> friends would pull a stunt like that.
>>
>> Radical environmentalists (polite term) have done a /lot/ of things
>> like that -- from stringing piano wire across biking trails to
>> burning down entire developments. Don't you read the news, Leo?
>
> Evidently Leo doesn't consider those scoundrels his friends.

Indeed (and good), but that in no way means that some people don't do such
things.

HTH

 

[Michael Baldwin]

Still Robert asks

>Terrorism....wow...that's a pretty heavy word for digging a hole in
>the ground, don't you think.

...one word for digging a hole in the ground is excavate...booby
trapping a public right of way is terrorism...

...hopefully you or nobody you care about, ever suffers a serious injury
or death at the hands of one of these sociopaths you're so willing to
defend as vandals...

Best Regards Always - Mike Baldwin

 

[Leo Lichtman]

Luke wrote: Evidently Leo doesn't consider those scoundrels his friends.
>
Sorni wrote: Indeed (and good), but that in no way means that some people
don't do such
> things.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Indeed I don't. Obviously, some people do do such things--else we wouldn't
be having this conversation. My point was not well expressed, I guess. I
was trying to say that it is not right to attribute the actions of a few to
an entire group. Michael Johnson said it much better.

 

[Jym Dyer]

> Uh, what news are you reading that says anything about
> 'environmentalists' burning down entire developments?

=v= There was a kid who did that. He left "E.L.F." graffiti
behind. Turns out he was the disgruntled son of the local
sheriff and had no connection with any environmental groups
aside from reading about them on the Internet.

=v= There has been sabotage of dirtbike races, but there is
no evidence that it has anything to do with any environmental
group or movement. That line was peddled by a group called
the Sahara Club, which purports to be a grassroots group of
angry dirtbikers but is actually an anti-enviro group funded
by foundation money from corporations and Rev. Moon. Look up
the phrase "wise use" sometime for details.
<_Jym_>

 

[brink]

"Tom Keats" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] (Michael Baldwin) writes:
>> Tom reminds me
>>
>>>If nobody was actually physically injured as a consequence of
>>>Warren John Wilson's actions, it'll be much more difficult to
>>>impugn him for assault, let alone any kind of intent.
>>>That's just how The System works.
>>
>> ..you are correct...that is how The System works, but that doesn't mean
>> The System can't be improved...cops have taught me, most DA's only want
>> one thing, victory....that's how they keep their jobs...I understand the
>> reality of the situation...we need laws that insure Mr. Wilson's actions
>> and others like him are treated as acts of domestic terrorism...example,
>> if a bomb goes off in a trash can next to a trail head parking lot and
>> nobody is serious hurt by the blast, is it "just" vandalism?....
>
> Warren John Wilson didn't do any bombing.
>
> He's more of an Ernest T. Bass than a Timothy McVeigh.
>
> It is unjust to demand an eye for a tooth.
> A tooth will be sufficient. The punishment
> /must/ be proportional to the offense. And
> it must be well-considered, and not a knee-jerk
> reaction.
>
> There's a danger (or two or three) in playing the
> "terrorism" card so off-handedly.
>
> And vandalism isn't "just" vandalism. It's a
> serious charge.

Agreed, but it seems too bad that he's only getting one count. I realize it
may be difficult, or impossible, for them to win a conviction for 50
offenses, esp when they caught him red-handed with apparently only one.

brink

 

[Tom Sherman]

Tom Keats wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] (Michael Baldwin) writes:
>> Tom says
>>
>>> Up here, Warren John Wilson's ass would be grass.
>> ..our three pillars of democracy are crumbling...the forementioned
>> person should be charged with assault with intent to maim or kill...
>
> The "forementioned person's" name is Warren John Wilson
> and will be forever known as such....

Are you sure it is not an alias for He Who Must Not Be Named?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people." A. Derleth