Litespeed BB housing dilemma

Quoted message said:

I am having trouble fitting a new TruVativ double carbon crank
(external bearings) on my litespeed tuscany. It seems like the TI BB
shell is too wide, and the crank tapers aren't quite long enough to
adequately torque down.(once I torque it correctly, their is a ton of
resistance.
The BB shell seems to be mic'ing slightly over 68mm, and inconsistently
at points around the shell edge. what is the spec for this bike BB
shell? is it 68mm? we were getting 68.15 to 68.20, so I had to loosen
up my crank ever so slightly, and loctite the hex threads to reduce
side wear/resistance on the crank itself. (while spinning, with
problem..my HR went up like 5 bpm from the added resistance in
BB/crank.)
Is this common? Is there a way to fix? thanks for any suggestions.

Face the shell?

On a related note, one of the uppity LBS's in my area refused to face
my head tube on my Ti frame because "it would wear out their cutting
tool".

But they didn't reduce their fee for the HS install ($60!!!, before I
knew better). Never went back, always mention it when someone asks
about them.

D'ohBoy

Quoted message said:

I am having trouble fitting a new TruVativ double carbon crank
(external bearings) on my litespeed tuscany. It seems like the TI BB
shell is too wide, and the crank tapers aren't quite long enough to
adequately torque down.(once I torque it correctly, their is a ton of
resistance.
The BB shell seems to be mic'ing slightly over 68mm, and inconsistently
at points around the shell edge. what is the spec for this bike BB
shell? is it 68mm? we were getting 68.15 to 68.20, so I had to loosen
up my crank ever so slightly, and loctite the hex threads to reduce
side wear/resistance on the crank itself. (while spinning, with
problem..my HR went up like 5 bpm from the added resistance in
BB/crank.)
Is this common? Is there a way to fix? thanks for any suggestions.

Very common, in that these 2 piece, outboard cranks rely heavily on
proper BB width. You can face the BB shell, works just like steel,
using a sharp tool..outherwise back to Litespeed for a fix(I'm sure
they can face it).

D'ohBoy said:

Quoted message said:

I am having trouble fitting a new TruVativ double carbon crank
(external bearings) on my litespeed tuscany. It seems like the TI BB
shell is too wide, and the crank tapers aren't quite long enough to
adequately torque down.(once I torque it correctly, their is a ton of
resistance.
The BB shell seems to be mic'ing slightly over 68mm, and inconsistently
at points around the shell edge. what is the spec for this bike BB
shell? is it 68mm? we were getting 68.15 to 68.20, so I had to loosen
up my crank ever so slightly, and loctite the hex threads to reduce
side wear/resistance on the crank itself. (while spinning, with
problem..my HR went up like 5 bpm from the added resistance in
BB/crank.)
Is this common? Is there a way to fix? thanks for any suggestions.

Face the shell?

On a related note, one of the uppity LBS's in my area refused to face
my head tube on my Ti frame because "it would wear out their cutting
tool".

In fairness, cutting titanium does dull most steel cutting tools.

Quoted message said:

But they didn't reduce their fee for the HS install ($60!!!, before I
knew better). Never went back, always mention it when someone asks
about them.

D'ohBoy

D'ohBoy said:

Quoted message said:

I am having trouble fitting a new TruVativ double carbon crank
(external bearings) on my litespeed tuscany. It seems like the TI BB
shell is too wide, and the crank tapers aren't quite long enough to
adequately torque down.(once I torque it correctly, their is a ton of
resistance.
The BB shell seems to be mic'ing slightly over 68mm, and inconsistently
at points around the shell edge. what is the spec for this bike BB
shell? is it 68mm? we were getting 68.15 to 68.20, so I had to loosen
up my crank ever so slightly, and loctite the hex threads to reduce
side wear/resistance on the crank itself. (while spinning, with
problem..my HR went up like 5 bpm from the added resistance in
BB/crank.)
Is this common? Is there a way to fix? thanks for any suggestions.

Face the shell?

On a related note, one of the uppity LBS's in my area refused to face
my head tube on my Ti frame because "it would wear out their cutting
tool".

In fairness, cutting titanium does dull most steel cutting tools, much
faster than cutting steel or aluminum.

Quoted message said:

But they didn't reduce their fee for the HS install ($60!!!, before I
knew better). Never went back, always mention it when someone asks
about them.

D'ohBoy

Quoted message said:

I am having trouble fitting a new TruVativ double carbon crank
(external bearings) on my litespeed tuscany. It seems like the TI BB
shell is too wide, and the crank tapers aren't quite long enough to
adequately torque down.(once I torque it correctly, their is a ton of
resistance.
The BB shell seems to be mic'ing slightly over 68mm, and inconsistently
at points around the shell edge. what is the spec for this bike BB
shell? is it 68mm? we were getting 68.15 to 68.20, so I had to loosen
up my crank ever so slightly, and loctite the hex threads to reduce
side wear/resistance on the crank itself. (while spinning, with
problem..my HR went up like 5 bpm from the added resistance in
BB/crank.)
Is this common? Is there a way to fix? thanks for any suggestions.

Kind of surprised the Litespeed Tuscany bottom bracket shell is not
perfect. On the Tuscany I recently purchased it had a fairly long
checklist showing all of the steps the frame went through in assembly.
Each of the steps was initialed and dated by someone. Maybe half a
dozen different initials in different hand writing on the checklist.
I'm pretty sure various frame prep steps were on the checklist. No of
course the true cynic could say the checklist and initials and dates
were all just to fool the consumer into thinking care was taken when
building the frame. The checklists could have been passed around at
lunch and everyone put a few initials here and there on them. But it
seems like a fair amount of trouble to go through. Some I'm guessing
they actually did the various building steps shown on the checklist.
Maybe not too well. But my frame seems to be put together fairly well.
I'd say Litespeeds are at least average for factory built frames. No
problems with my bottom bracket shell that I have noticed. But I am
using that decades old square taper technology with adjustable bottom
bracket cups. Haven't seen any of these outboard bearing cranksets
with 94mm bcd spiders you can convert from triple to double by leaving
off the inner ring and using a shorter bottom bracket spindle.

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

D'ohBoy said:

Quoted message said:

I am having trouble fitting a new TruVativ double carbon crank
(external bearings) on my litespeed tuscany. It seems like the TI BB
shell is too wide, and the crank tapers aren't quite long enough to
adequately torque down.(once I torque it correctly, their is a ton of
resistance.
The BB shell seems to be mic'ing slightly over 68mm, and inconsistently
at points around the shell edge. what is the spec for this bike BB
shell? is it 68mm? we were getting 68.15 to 68.20, so I had to loosen
up my crank ever so slightly, and loctite the hex threads to reduce
side wear/resistance on the crank itself. (while spinning, with
problem..my HR went up like 5 bpm from the added resistance in
BB/crank.)
Is this common? Is there a way to fix? thanks for any suggestions.

Face the shell?

On a related note, one of the uppity LBS's in my area refused to face
my head tube on my Ti frame because "it would wear out their cutting
tool".

In fairness, cutting titanium does dull most steel cutting tools.

But, but, steel is harder than titanium. Doesn't cutting steel dull the
tools as well?

--

David L. Johnson

"What am I on? I'm on my bike, six hours a day, busting my ass. What
are you on?" --Lance Armstrong

David L. Johnson said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

D'ohBoy said:

[email hidden] wrote:
> I am having trouble fitting a new TruVativ double carbon crank
> (external bearings) on my litespeed tuscany. It seems like the TI BB
> shell is too wide, and the crank tapers aren't quite long enough to
> adequately torque down.(once I torque it correctly, their is a ton of
> resistance.
> The BB shell seems to be mic'ing slightly over 68mm, and inconsistently
> at points around the shell edge. what is the spec for this bike BB
> shell? is it 68mm? we were getting 68.15 to 68.20, so I had to loosen
> up my crank ever so slightly, and loctite the hex threads to reduce
> side wear/resistance on the crank itself. (while spinning, with
> problem..my HR went up like 5 bpm from the added resistance in
> BB/crank.)
> Is this common? Is there a way to fix? thanks for any suggestions.

Face the shell?

On a related note, one of the uppity LBS's in my area refused to face
my head tube on my Ti frame because "it would wear out their cutting
tool".

In fairness, cutting titanium does dull most steel cutting tools.

But, but, steel is harder than titanium. Doesn't cutting steel dull the
tools as well?

Dear David,

Yes, but it's a cooler, more compliant dullness.

🙂

One problem with cutting titanium is that it's not as good a heat
conductor as steel, so steel bits temper and dull if driven at
"normal" rates:

http://www.hanita.com/hanita_protected/hanita-art3.htm

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] wrote:
> I am having trouble fitting a new TruVativ double carbon crank
> (external bearings) on my litespeed tuscany. It seems like the TI BB
> shell is too wide, and the crank tapers aren't quite long enough to
> adequately torque down.(once I torque it correctly, their is a ton of
> resistance.
> The BB shell seems to be mic'ing slightly over 68mm, and inconsistently
> at points around the shell edge. what is the spec for this bike BB
> shell? is it 68mm? we were getting 68.15 to 68.20, so I had to loosen
> up my crank ever so slightly, and loctite the hex threads to reduce
> side wear/resistance on the crank itself. (while spinning, with
> problem..my HR went up like 5 bpm from the added resistance in
> BB/crank.)
> Is this common? Is there a way to fix? thanks for any suggestions.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

D'ohBoy said:

Face the shell?
On a related note, one of the uppity LBS's in my area refused to face
my head tube on my Ti frame because "it would wear out their cutting
tool".

Quoted message said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

In fairness, cutting titanium does dull most steel cutting tools.

David L. Johnson said:

But, but, steel is harder than titanium. Doesn't cutting steel dull the
tools as well?

I think Peter should have said Titanium _can_ easily dull cutting tools.

Ti has a property of 'springing' or 'stretching', when, for example
tapping a thinwall piece like a BB shell, such that the cutting edge
pushes the material away and the Ti drags on the usually-relieved edge
as it springs back. That's why you get so incredibly much heat buildup
cutting Ti when the cutting fluid, speed and feed are anything except
just right. With our industry's Campagnolo tools you need clear aligned
threads to mount the facing pilots so you can't 'just' face a BB.

Gary Helfrich showed me a 27.2mm six-flute reamer snapped off in a frame
once - he said the other half went past his ear at high speed. Anyone
who's drilled holes in Ti has a couple of good stories, too.

Modern Ti frames are mostly threaded before welding so warped shells are
more common now, with misaligned threads and non-parallel faces.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> On a related note, one of the uppity LBS's in my area refused to face
> my head tube on my Ti frame because "it would wear out their cutting
> tool".

In fairness, cutting titanium does dull most steel cutting tools.

But, but, steel is harder than titanium. Doesn't cutting steel dull the
tools as well?

Dear David,

Yes, but it's a cooler, more compliant dullness.

🙂

One problem with cutting titanium is that it's not as good a heat
conductor as steel, so steel bits temper and dull if driven at
"normal" rates:

http://www.hanita.com/hanita_protected/hanita-art3.htm

So fast do these shop mechanics face bottom brackets?

--
Joe Riel

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> On a related note, one of the uppity LBS's in my area refused to

face

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> my head tube on my Ti frame because "it would wear out their cutting
>> tool".
> In fairness, cutting titanium does dull most steel cutting tools.
But, but, steel is harder than titanium. Doesn't cutting steel dull the
tools as well?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Yes, but it's a cooler, more compliant dullness.
One problem with cutting titanium is that it's not as good a heat
conductor as steel, so steel bits temper and dull if driven at
"normal" rates:
http://www.hanita.com/hanita_protected/hanita-art3.htm

Joe Riel said:

So fast do these shop mechanics face bottom brackets?

How fast? Briskly.
Let's see, facing cutters turn at, what, 40rpm? On a 1.6" diameter
*3.14159 is, uh, 200 inches/min over 12 so roughly 16 or so fpm?

Facing isn't the problem as we have good access for coolant, excellent
chip trajectory and a huge cutter mass[*] heat sink on a 2~3mm face.

Tapping, though, is a [censored]. To rectify a warped shell where thread axes
are out of line a degree or two we have a hard time starting the cut.
And until you have those threads in one axis you are _not_ going to get
those facing pilots in that frame.

[* Our Campagnolo TiN coated cutters weigh 7 ounces alone. With handle
(no pilots) over 3 pounds]
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I am having trouble fitting a new TruVativ double carbon crank
(external bearings) on my litespeed tuscany. It seems like the TI BB
shell is too wide, and the crank tapers aren't quite long enough to
adequately torque down.(once I torque it correctly, their is a ton of
resistance.
The BB shell seems to be mic'ing slightly over 68mm, and inconsistently
at points around the shell edge. what is the spec for this bike BB
shell? is it 68mm? we were getting 68.15 to 68.20, so I had to loosen
up my crank ever so slightly, and loctite the hex threads to reduce
side wear/resistance on the crank itself. (while spinning, with
problem..my HR went up like 5 bpm from the added resistance in
BB/crank.)
Is this common? Is there a way to fix? thanks for any suggestions.

Kind of surprised the Litespeed Tuscany bottom bracket shell is not
perfect. On the Tuscany I recently purchased it had a fairly long
checklist showing all of the steps the frame went through in assembly.
Each of the steps was initialed and dated by someone. Maybe half a
dozen different initials in different hand writing on the checklist.
I'm pretty sure various frame prep steps were on the checklist. No of
course the true cynic could say the checklist and initials and dates
were all just to fool the consumer into thinking care was taken when
building the frame. The checklists could have been passed around at
lunch and everyone put a few initials here and there on them. But it
seems like a fair amount of trouble to go through. Some I'm guessing
they actually did the various building steps shown on the checklist.
Maybe not too well. But my frame seems to be put together fairly well.
I'd say Litespeeds are at least average for factory built frames. No
problems with my bottom bracket shell that I have noticed. But I am
using that decades old square taper technology with adjustable bottom
bracket cups. Haven't seen any of these outboard bearing cranksets
with 94mm bcd spiders you can convert from triple to double by leaving
off the inner ring and using a shorter bottom bracket spindle.

Not unknown from our friends at ACG tho. A customer had a Merlin-speed
where the BB threads were not cut parallel..MANY(3) trips back to
Ootawah, where they just retapped the threads, each side, w/o checking
to see if they were parallel, so the problem(bindy BB) was not fixed.
Finally, they replaced the entire shell, problem solved.