Linear pull brake levers???

Tom Sherman <[email hidden]> wrote;

Quoted message said:

Chalo said:

...
I have drum brakes that are as weak as sidepull brakes...

Are these drum brakes used on larger (ISO 559-630 mm) wheels?

The ones I was talking about are on ISO 622 wheels, but I have another
bike with drums on 20" wheels.

Quoted message said:

Drum
brakes are best used with small diameter wheels, since the shorter lever
arm from the contact patch to axle greatly increases their effectiveness.

That's true, but there's a catch: The increased leverage (and
therefore increased braking force) allows you to dump more energy in
them more quickly, so they heat up faster. My road bike with drums
gives me a scare almost every time I ride it due to its increased
stopping distances, while my chopper with drums on 20" wheels stops
better but fades sooner and more suddenly. It behaves well enough
most of the time for me to become confident in it, then reminds me
that it will fail when I need it most. Good thing it's a chopper
bike-- I can consider its braking quirks to be part of its
"personality", like the way one of my other choppers tends to dump me
off the back when climbing a ramp.

The 20"-wheeled bike's brake fade can be a thrill when it happens
partway down a long hill on one of Seattle's well-trafficked streets.
I'll be dragging the brakes to control my speed when all of a sudden,
I'll speed up noticeably even though I have pulled the levers all the
way in to the grips. Usually I top out at some reasonable speed of
10-20mph and reach another equilibrium, but further deceleration
requires foot-dragging unless the slope flattens out first.

Chalo Colina

Quoted message said:

Dear Chalo,

I don't mind you being so sensible and courteous, but do you
have to write so much more clearly than the rest of us, too?

Why Carl, you flatter me! Surely you recognize that you, more than
anyone, give our ephemeral medium more effort than it really
warrants-- which betrays your conscientious standard about such, ahem,
prosaic matters.

I am reminded of the canonical Proverb, "A man that flattereth his
neighbour spreadeth a net for his feet." Well, mine are rather
bumbling feet, so even a hairnet would probably do the trick.

To my delight, elsewhere in Proverbs I found verses that apply more
generally to the discourse that unfolds here on Usenet:

26:3 A whip for the horse, a bridle for the ass, and a rod for the
fool's back.

26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like
unto him.

26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own
conceit.

I especially love the adjacent yet contradictory direct instructions.

Chalo Colina

On 28 Sep 2004 10:54:48 -0700, [email hidden]

(Chalo) said:

Quoted message said:

Dear Chalo,

I don't mind you being so sensible and courteous, but do you
have to write so much more clearly than the rest of us, too?

Why Carl, you flatter me! Surely you recognize that you, more than
anyone, give our ephemeral medium more effort than it really
warrants-- which betrays your conscientious standard about such, ahem,
prosaic matters.

I am reminded of the canonical Proverb, "A man that flattereth his
neighbour spreadeth a net for his feet." Well, mine are rather
bumbling feet, so even a hairnet would probably do the trick.

To my delight, elsewhere in Proverbs I found verses that apply more
generally to the discourse that unfolds here on Usenet:

26:3 A whip for the horse, a bridle for the ass, and a rod for the
fool's back.

26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like
unto him.

26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own
conceit.

I especially love the adjacent yet contradictory direct instructions.

Chalo Colina

Dear Chalo,

Sigh. If I only had more time, I could write shorter,
clearer posts.

Carl Fogel

"Chalo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Chalo Colina writes:

Quoted message said:

The fact that you prefer sidepulls to all other brakes

indicates that

Quoted message said:

you value their benefits of simplicity, compactness, infrequent

pad

Quoted message said:

adjustment and light weight over the qualities they lack, like
stopping power, tire clearance, and weather tolerance. You

make a

Quoted message said:

valid judgment, just as do those who place more importance on

strong

Quoted message said:

braking or the ride quality benefits of fat tires.

I used Mavic, Scott and Shimano cantilevers and Weinmann and
Universal centerpulls, and none of them stopped as well as the
classic, standard reach NR side pulls, IMO. The standard reach NR
side pulls could accommodate large road tires, fenders, and
anything else you wanted to put under the brake bridge within
reason. They are somewhat stiff, however, with STI levers, which
is the current set up (rear) on my commuting bike.

The real problem for me is using STI levers with cantilevers. I
have found this to be a less than optimal combination, even with
an over-sized stradle cable hanger and KoolStop salmon pads. If
you use STI, then sidepulls are the easiest and most functional
option, and dual pivots work best. -- Jay Beattie.

Jay Beattie said:

The real problem for me is using STI levers with cantilevers. I
have found this to be a less than optimal combination,

Howdy,

What problem do you find...?

Thanks,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

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In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Chalo Colina said:

Centerpull calipers have shorter, stiffer arms connecting the pads
to the pivots, so they are better able to resist fore-to-aft flex
and torsional flex in the pivot. It is flex, and not lack of
mechanical advantage, that limits the maximum braking force
available from a caliper brake. All else equal, centerpulls can
deliver more braking force than sidepulls because they flex less and
can be pulled harder before the lever runs out of travel.

From this, I assume the long reach Campagnolo side pull brakes on my
bicycle don't work at all.

_ I'd say that's a very fair description of my Universal Mod 68
sidepulls.

_ Booker C. Bense

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"Kenneth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Jay Beattie said:

The real problem for me is using STI levers with cantilevers.

I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

have found this to be a less than optimal combination,

Howdy,

What problem do you find...?

There is a mismatch between the mechanical advantage of STI
levers and medium reach cantilevers. I prefer a stiffer feel,
which means lower mechanical advantage. But with a lower
mechanical advantage, the brakes do not have a lot of stopping
power. If I go for more mechanical advantage, I get a sloppy
feel and can even run out of lever travel before the bike stops.
No matter what, with the STI levers, you have to run your pads
very close to the rim. With a conventional set up (no STI), it is
much easier to get good stopping without all the fussiness. I
think the new short reach cantis work better with STI. -- Jay
Beattie.

This is a repost because the other news server seems to be no longer
propagating messages very far.

Email to me is just like email to my son, or talking to him for that
matter: messages are not monitored or answered.

In article <[email hidden]>,

(George Herbert Walker) said:

In article <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

that the centerpull was discontinued because it had no clothes,
offering no functional advantage over other brakes while having a pad
sweep that endangered the tire as its pads wore. Besides, it never
has a good QR.

Centerpulls were discontinued because they were more expensive to
manufacture, and harder to tighten the anchor bolt, and perhaps most
important of all, because Campagnolo only made sidepulls (there were
Dura-Ace centrepulls too but I found them indistinguishable from the $5?
Tourneys).

The following QR mechanisms were available on centerpulls:

1. Unhook straddle, like on modern cantilevers- Mafac & Gran Compe. Worked fine.
2. On lever: Weinmann and Dia & Gran Compe. Worked fine, Weinmann one
foolproof, unlike sidepull mounted ones.
3. On cable stop: available from Weinmann, Dia Compe, Gran Compe, and
Shimano. Works exactly the same as on sidepulls.
4. Deflate tire. You are going to do that anyway, right?

--
TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN

Please excuse the inconvenience allegedly caused by our son. Send
us the bill for all the damages, and we can settle this to your
satisfaction, without any need for a public record of the incident.

Most Sincerely, George and Bar

Jay Beattie said:

Quoted message said:

The real problem for me is using STI levers with cantilevers. I
have found this to be a less than optimal combination, even with
an over-sized stradle cable hanger and KoolStop salmon pads.

I bought some KoolStop salmon pads per recommendation here in rbr. I have to
say I was dissappointed. I find the "regular" *black* Kool Stop Eagle Claw 2
pads to be distinctly superior, at least for dry conditions (road riding). I
don't ride much in the rain anymore.

Quoted message said:

If you use STI, then sidepulls
are the easiest and most functional
option, and dual pivots work best.

I haven't tried dual pivot, so I don't know. My sidepulls w/ black Kool Stop
Eagle Claws rarely get pushed to their limit.

However, for my body, it's all about quality rather than quantity. I don't need
super powerful brakes to get me stopped fast.

gwhite said:

I bought some KoolStop salmon pads per recommendation here in rbr. I have to
say I was dissappointed. I find the "regular" *black* Kool Stop Eagle Claw 2
pads to be distinctly superior, at least for dry conditions (road riding). I
don't ride much in the rain anymore.
...

I also bought some KoolStop salmon pads and my experience is different.
I'm really happy with them, I found they are a lot more powerful than
the Dura Ace pads (so far I never tried them in wet conditions): the
first time I braked hard I almost went down...
I also found they often squeak, but the problem usually goes away after
a while.
My rims are standard Open Pros.

Francesco

Francesco Devittori said:

gwhite said:

I bought some KoolStop salmon pads per recommendation here in rbr.
I have to say I was dissappointed. I find the "regular" *black*
Kool Stop Eagle Claw 2 pads to be distinctly superior, at least for
dry conditions (road riding). I don't ride much in the rain anymore.
...

I also bought some KoolStop salmon pads and my experience is
different. I'm really happy with them, I found they are a lot more
powerful than the Dura Ace pads (so far I never tried them in wet
conditions): the first time I braked hard I almost went down...
I also found they often squeak, but the problem usually goes away
after a while.
My rims are standard Open Pros.

I've been riding both the salmon and the black for the last 15 years, since the
Mathauser days. The salmon are indeed better -- but mostly in the wet.
However, the black are the next best thing, compared to any other brand. Either
one is *way* better than Shimano, which are insufferable. Later model Shimanos
stop the bike OK, but they still sound like they're grinding your rims to
pieces -- which in fact they do.

Matt O.

Francesco Devittori said:

Quoted message said:

I bought some KoolStop salmon pads per recommendation here in rbr.
I have to say I was dissappointed. I find the "regular" *black*
Kool Stop Eagle Claw 2 pads to be distinctly superior, at least for
dry conditions (road riding). I don't ride much in the rain
anymore. ...

Quoted message said:

I also bought some Kool-Stop salmon pads and my experience is
different. I'm really happy with them, I found they are a lot more
powerful than the Dura Ace pads (so far I never tried them in wet
conditions): the first time I braked hard I almost went down...

Modulation! Always try the brakes on a straight section before you
need to to sense what response they will give. Humidity has a large
effect so this is something reasonable to do on the first descent on
any ride.

Quoted message said:

I also found they often squeak, but the problem usually goes away
after a while. My rims are standard Open Pros.

The greatest advantage of the Kool-Stop Salmon material is that it
doesn't fade/melt and it rejects aluminum scrapings that can get
embedded in pads from trapped road debris. I often hear people
braking with, what is to me, the horrible scraping sound of metal
shavings. This occurs when aluminum is scraped off the rim by
embedded debris to become aluminum oxide, a great cutting tool. Most
brake pads do not release such abrasive particles and only get worse
without someone using a sharp tool to dig out the offending grains.
Kool-Stop Salmon material will eject the beginnings of such action if
the brake is pumped sharply.

http://www.koolstop.com/brakes/

Continental salmon red: bottom of the page is the best pad you can use
if it fits your calipers.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Modulation! Always try the brakes on a straight section before you
need to to sense what response they will give. Humidity has a large
effect so this is something reasonable to do on the first descent on
any ride.

Jobst, something you said caught my attention;
Humidity has a large effect on braking?
I also use the Kool Stop salmon color brake pads, but have only noticed a
great difference in braking when it dry or when it's wet.
-tom

Tom Nakashima said:

Quoted message said:

Modulation! Always try the brakes on a straight section before you
need to to sense what response they will give. Humidity has a
large effect so this is something reasonable to do on the first
descent on any ride.

Quoted message said:

Humidity has a large effect on braking? I also use the Kool Stop
salmon color brake pads, but have only noticed a great difference in
braking when it dry or when it's wet.

Surfaces, especially smooth ones, have adhesion properties that are
strongly affected by adsorbed volatiles, water being the most common
one. In the days of drum brakes on cars, wheel lock-up occurred with
high humidity occasionally and more frequently grabby brakes on first
applications. That is the best example I can think of to demonstrate
the effect.

Humidity often causes brake squeal. Recently, while riding over
Mt. Hamilton, rising out of the fog in the valley, I got a screeching
response from my brakes on the descent until I got the rims hot. Then
I had to do some light brake applications to get rid of the squealing
surface features that had generated, some sort of caterpillar motion
ripples. Then the brakes were silent and effective as usual.

http://mthamilton.ucolick.org/hamcam/

See the fog in the morning!

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tom Nakashima said:

Quoted message said:

Modulation! Always try the brakes on a straight section before you
need to to sense what response they will give. Humidity has a
large effect so this is something reasonable to do on the first
descent on any ride.

Quoted message said:

Humidity has a large effect on braking? I also use the Kool Stop
salmon color brake pads, but have only noticed a great difference in
braking when it dry or when it's wet.

Surfaces, especially smooth ones, have adhesion properties that are
strongly affected by adsorbed volatiles, water being the most common
one. In the days of drum brakes on cars, wheel lock-up occurred with
high humidity occasionally and more frequently grabby brakes on first
applications. That is the best example I can think of to demonstrate
the effect.

Humidity often causes brake squeal. Recently, while riding over
Mt. Hamilton, rising out of the fog in the valley, I got a screeching
response from my brakes on the descent until I got the rims hot. Then
I had to do some light brake applications to get rid of the squealing
surface features that had generated, some sort of caterpillar motion
ripples. Then the brakes were silent and effective as usual.

http://mthamilton.ucolick.org/hamcam/

See the fog in the morning!

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

Good explanation. I have also had brake squeal in the early morning on
descents, and have had it disappear, but never crossed my mind that it was
the humidity which caused this problem. I would also feather my brakes to
get the squeal to cease. Great information to know.
thanks,
-tom

Matt O'Toole said:

Francesco Devittori said:

gwhite said:

I bought some KoolStop salmon pads per recommendation here in rbr.
I have to say I was dissappointed. I find the "regular" *black*
Kool Stop Eagle Claw 2 pads to be distinctly superior, at least for
dry conditions (road riding). I don't ride much in the rain anymore.
...

I also bought some KoolStop salmon pads and my experience is
different. I'm really happy with them, I found they are a lot more
powerful than the Dura Ace pads (so far I never tried them in wet
conditions): the first time I braked hard I almost went down...
I also found they often squeak, but the problem usually goes away
after a while.
My rims are standard Open Pros.

I've been riding both the salmon and the black for the last 15 years, since the
Mathauser days. The salmon are indeed better -- but mostly in the wet.
However, the black are the next best thing, compared to any other brand. Either
one is *way* better than Shimano, which are insufferable. Later model Shimanos
stop the bike OK, but they still sound like they're grinding your rims to
pieces -- which in fact they do.

Like I wrote, I don't know about wet -- I have not used my salmons in wet
conditions. But for dry, and comparing black to salmon, I would say the black
pads (Eagle Claws) are unquestionably better.

You noted the wet difference/comparison, but what about dry?

gwhite said:

Like I wrote, I don't know about wet -- I have not used my salmons in
wet conditions. But for dry, and comparing black to salmon, I would
say the black pads (Eagle Claws) are unquestionably better.

You noted the wet difference/comparison, but what about dry?

Not much difference.

Matt O.