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Road Cycling
Published
6 September 2005
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16 October 2005
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mark
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  1. I submit that on or about Wed, 14 Sep 2005 20:08:04 GMT, the person
    known to the court as SMS <[email hidden]> made a statement
    (<[email hidden]> in Your Honour's bundle) to
    the following effect:

    Quoted message said:

    Just one correction, it's not "my" figure, it's the figure you get by
    adding up the prices at the retailer's web site. It's not like these
    prices came out of thin air!

    Except that the retailer's price includes supply of a wheel,. and the
    most expensive lights you could find. I priced a SON and two
    headlights for much less, from Peter White Cycles. But as ever you
    miss the point: your absurd fantasy that only a Rolls-Royce system is
    usable at all is just that: absurd. As you've been told many times.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The "Wal-Mart level" system that Jasper Janssen referred to at the start of
    this exchange seems to me to be of much lower quality than the Nexus/Lumotec
    system that I now have and that you upgraded from. If the millions of Dutch
    cyclists you refer to are on well paved, well lit cycle paths then it
    probably is adequate, but I would guess that a flashlight duct-taped to the
    handlebars would work at least as well in those conditions.

    Quoted message said:

    This is indeed the key point. Guy makes comments about the quality of
    the moonlight, even though he is well aware of the actual differences
    between the Netherlands and most other areas.

    I ride in the UK. We have dark, twisty roads, and I use dynamo
    lights. You are apparently trying to pretend that the USA is in some
    way "special" in order to justify your prejudice against dynamos.
    Dynamo lights work for Frank, for me in the UK, for many people on
    many continents. You just happen not to like them.

    Quoted message said:

    It's either amusing or annoying when people that know the facts,
    intentionally mangle them, trying to prove something that everyone else
    already knows isn't so. No one has any doubt that Guy has checked the
    prices at "http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/Schmidt-Lumotec.asp" and
    knows that everything that I wrote was accurate.

    For some values of accurate.

    Schmidt SON28 hub, black, 32 hole only $ 245.5
    Lumotec Standard lamp, 2.4 watt bulb: $ 41.00
    Lumotec Standard lamp, 3 watt bulb: $ 43.00
    DToplight Plus, $ 45.75

    Total $375.25.

    Quoted message said:

    Just as no one doesn't
    comprehend the differences between the Netherlands, and most other
    places, when it comes to the cycling infrastructure.

    Straw man. I ride in the UK, using dynamo lights. The comment about
    the Netherlands was a throwaway: there are millions of cyclists around
    the world using those "inadequate" dynamo systems, often the very
    cheapest sort.

    Quoted message said:

    There probably are no statistics that are detailed enough to be useful.
    However, when cycling with very good lights, I find that vehicles are
    more likely to see me than in the daytime. One reason is that they
    probably cannot distinguish between my bicycle and a motorcycle, so they
    don't assume a slow speed vehicle is approaching them.

    And of course no driver has ever hit a motorcycle in broad daylight
    with a halogen headlight switched on and the rider dressed from head
    to foot in high-visibility clothing. Oh, wait...

    My experience is that the thing that makes the difference between
    being seen and not being seen is mainly road position. This applies
    at night probably more than during the day.

    I have nothing against people who decide to use very bright lights,
    I've just never found them to be necessary. I find a dynamo system to
    be easily good enough (and yes, I freely admit I rarely exceed 30mph
    on a bike at night), and they are very dependable, always there. Since
    all my bikes are used for commuting at least some of the time, that is
    very high on my list of criteria for a good system.

    Guy
    --
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

  2. I submit that on or about Wed, 14 Sep 2005 16:52:18 GMT, the person
    known to the court as SMS <[email hidden]> made a statement
    (<[email hidden]> in Your Honour's bundle) to
    the following effect:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    That's $300 for a complete set, using the SON, which is the
    Rolls-Royce of dynamo hubs.

    Quoted message said:

    Nope, that's just the hub, not the wheel.

    My bike already has a wheel. Doesn't yours?

    Guy
    --
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

  3. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Just zis Guy said:

    I submit that on or about Thu, 15 Sep 2005 03:13:39 GMT, the person
    known to the court as "Mike Kruger" <[email hidden]> made a
    statement (<[email hidden]> in Your
    Honour's bundle) to the following effect:

    Quoted message said:

    Only one minor problem. It's a one-piece unit (bottle generator and light in
    one piece that attaches to the front fork). Since I ordered it from the
    U.K., it fits on the right side of the wheel, when it would be better if it
    were on the left side of the wheel.

    I'm curious, what brand is it? Most of the decent ones seem to be
    made in Germany, and they drive on the right.

    Some rim-drive block generator units are available here:
    http://www.bikelite.com/
    International Bike Lights, Redmond, Washington, USA

    Manufacturers include Sanyo and Sanden.

    These all appear to be right-side mounted. Bernie, who
    hasn't posted here in quite a long while, acquired one
    from this source and was quite happy with it.

    cheers,
    Tom

    --
    -- Nothing is safe from me.
    Above address is just a spam midden.
    I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

  4. Thu, 15 Sep 2005 08:21:39 +0100,
    <[email hidden]>, "Just zis Guy, you

    know? said:

    That's kind of my point: although I spend a fortune on lighting
    (generally I spend more on the lights for a bike, whichever system I
    use, than most people spend on the entire bike), I have no actual
    evidence that using lights at night makes any difference at all.
    Scharf goes further: he asserts that only very bright lights are any
    good at all. Since I have never seen any hard evidence that lights
    make any difference in the first place, I find this hard to credit.

    Seated comfortably at a cafe watching traffic I've noticed bright bike
    lights get lost in the other vehicle's bright lights and a blinking
    white LED noticeably stands out.

    IMO, Mr.Scharf's dogmatically touted. paint-peelers are a waste of
    resources while riding in traffic.
    --
    zk

  5. I submit that on or about Thu, 15 Sep 2005 00:44:23 -0700, the person
    known to the court as [email hidden] (Tom Keats) made a
    statement (<[email hidden]> in Your Honour's bundle)
    to the following effect:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I'm curious, what brand is it? Most of the decent ones seem to be
    made in Germany, and they drive on the right.

    Quoted message said:

    Manufacturers include Sanyo and Sanden.

    Mystery solved. The Japanese also drive on the left...

    Guy
    --
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

  6. Tom Keats said:

    Some rim-drive block generator units are available here:
    http://www.bikelite.com/
    International Bike Lights, Redmond, Washington, USA

    Manufacturers include Sanyo and Sanden.

    Also see:

    "http://loosescrews.com/index.cgi?d=single&c=Accessories&sc=Generator&tc=&item_id=UF-23009&id=106490510060"

    for the Union/Marwi. I bought one from them.

  7. Zoot Katz said:

    IMO, Mr.Scharf's dogmatically touted. paint-peelers are a waste of
    resources while riding in traffic.

    It is not just my opinion that the greater illumination, that the
    brighter lights provide, is better. Look at the statements by Marty
    Goodman, and Ken Kifer.

  8. <<Some rim-drive block generator units are available here:
    http://www.bikelite.com/
    International Bike Lights, Redmond, Washington, USA >>

    I'm assuming that the main reason for rim-driven units (versus
    tire-driven) is because they are usable with knobby tires.

    I'm assuming that rim-driven units would be more prone to skipping
    under wet conditions.

    Other than that, despite this site saying "These are totally different
    than tire-driven generators you may have known in the past and far
    superior." I'm assuming tire- and rim-driven generators are pretty much
    the same thing, and that the "totally different" is because of
    engineering efficiencies in the last 40 years.

    If any of you experts want to take a short break from attacking each
    other and comment on these assumptions, that would be fine.

  9. I submit that on or about Thu, 15 Sep 2005 12:19:42 GMT, the person
    known to the court as SMS <[email hidden]> made a statement
    (<[email hidden]> in Your Honour's bundle) to
    the following effect:

    Quoted message said:

    It is not just my opinion that the greater illumination, that the
    brighter lights provide, is better

    And any day now you're going to post that evidence...

    Guy
    --
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

  10. Bob Dole said:

    <<Some rim-drive block generator units are available here:
    http://www.bikelite.com/
    International Bike Lights, Redmond, Washington, USA >>

    I'm assuming that the main reason for rim-driven units (versus
    tire-driven) is because they are usable with knobby tires.

    And because they don't wear the tire down, which can be a problem with
    tire driven on thin wall tires.

  11. Just zis Guy said:

    I submit that on or about Thu, 15 Sep 2005 12:19:42 GMT, the person
    known to the court as SMS <[email hidden]> made a statement
    (<[email hidden]> in Your Honour's bundle) to
    the following effect:

    Quoted message said:

    It is not just my opinion that the greater illumination, that the
    brighter lights provide, is better

    Good snipping Guy, you're truly an expert and snipping to take things
    out of context.

  12. Thu, 15 Sep 2005 12:19:42 GMT,
    <[email hidden]>, SMS

    Quoted message said:
    Zoot Katz said:

    IMO, Mr.Scharf's dogmatically touted. paint-peelers are a waste of
    resources while riding in traffic.

    It is not just my opinion that the greater illumination, that the
    brighter lights provide, is better. Look at the statements by Marty
    Goodman, and Ken Kifer.

    I'm not stating an opinion, I'm reporting my observations.
    Bright bike lights are lost among the bright lights of other traffic.
    A cool white blinking LED is more readily noticeable and identifiable.
    --
    zk

  13. Bob Dole said:

    <<Some rim-drive block generator units are available here:
    http://www.bikelite.com/
    International Bike Lights, Redmond, Washington, USA >>

    I'm assuming that the main reason for rim-driven units (versus
    tire-driven) is because they are usable with knobby tires.

    That's certainly likely. Another possibility is this: It may be
    there's less power consumed by a fairly hard rubber roller riding on a
    hard rim surface, compared to a roller riding on a relatively soft
    tire. It's my understanding that a surprising amount of generator drag
    is caused by that roller-tire interface.

    Quoted message said:


    I'm assuming that rim-driven units would be more prone to skipping
    under wet conditions.

    Sounds reasonable, although some have very narrow rollers. Perhaps
    those cut through the water film pretty well - I don't know first hand.
    Some examples can be seen at
    http://www.sjscycles.com/store/vIndex.htm?cat208.htm

    Quoted message said:

    Other than that, despite this site saying "These are totally different
    than tire-driven generators you may have known in the past and far
    superior." I'm assuming tire- and rim-driven generators are pretty much
    the same thing, and that the "totally different" is because of
    engineering efficiencies in the last 40 years.

    I assume the "totally different" is largely advertising! You are
    reading an advertisement, remember!

    Not to say those generators aren't good. But the "engineering
    efficiencies" are, AFAIK, better magnet materials, better bulbs, better
    headlamp optics, and perhaps (I don't know) better alloys in the
    construction so there are less eddy current losses. I don't think any
    of the changes have been big enough to justify the word "totally."

    FWIW, I just ran some calculations using the graphs on that site. That
    first Sanyo comes out to 40% efficient at 15 mph. That's good. Not
    outstanding, but good.

    Until I heard otherwise, I'd expect those generators to be perfectly
    serviceable, like most of their competitors.

    - Frank Krygowski

  14. Zoot Katz said:

    Thu, 15 Sep 2005 08:21:39 +0100,
    <[email hidden]>, "Just zis Guy, you

    know? said:

    That's kind of my point: although I spend a fortune on lighting
    (generally I spend more on the lights for a bike, whichever system I
    use, than most people spend on the entire bike), I have no actual
    evidence that using lights at night makes any difference at all.
    Scharf goes further: he asserts that only very bright lights are any
    good at all. Since I have never seen any hard evidence that lights
    make any difference in the first place, I find this hard to credit.

    Seated comfortably at a cafe watching traffic I've noticed bright bike
    lights get lost in the other vehicle's bright lights and a blinking
    white LED noticeably stands out.

    IMO, Mr.Scharf's dogmatically touted. paint-peelers are a waste of
    resources while riding in traffic.

    I don't disagree, however, on rural backgrounds--particularly on
    descents--it's nice to see if Bambi and friends are crossing the road
    well in advance.

    I'm going to have to check out a dynamo system--I cannot carry enough
    water for a long ride *and* carry a NiMH battery for my headlamp, too (I
    lose one bottle cage to the battery). The battery won't last long
    enough for a long ride anyway (I get 3 hours with a single 3W beam on,
    1.5 hours if I fire up both beams), especially after we switch back to
    standard time.

    I suppose, for now, that I'd get a tire- or rim-driven unit, to save on
    costs. How much wear on the tire does a tire-driven unit cause? I'm
    already chewing up rear tires at a furious rate on the chipseal that
    passes for roads around here.

    (I presume the drag is about equivalent to the light output, plus some
    percentage for inefficiencies--say you get 5W or 6W of power loss at the
    wheels to get 3W of illumination--does that sound right?)

    --
    Chris BeHanna
    '03 Specialized Allez Elite 27
    '04 Specialized Hardrock Pro Disc

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  15. Chris BeHanna said:

    I'm going to have to check out a dynamo system--I cannot carry
    enough water for a long ride *and* carry a NiMH battery for my headlamp,
    too (I lose one bottle cage to the battery). The battery won't last
    long enough for a long ride anyway (I get 3 hours with a single 3W beam
    on, 1.5 hours if I fire up both beams), especially after we switch back
    to standard time.

    There are many ways to add additional bottle cages. See
    "http://www.nordicgroup.us/cageboss.htm"

  16. Fri, 16 Sep 2005 00:57:37 -0400,
    <[email hidden]>, Chris BeHanna
    <[email hidden]> wrote, in part:

    Quoted message said:

    I suppose, for now, that I'd get a tire- or rim-driven unit, to save on
    costs. How much wear on the tire does a tire-driven unit cause? I'm
    already chewing up rear tires at a furious rate on the chipseal that
    passes for roads around here.


    Properly situated, the roller contacts the shoulder of the tire, not
    the sidewall. I've not worn out any tire by running bottle generators
    after learning that. I think there are tires made with special tread
    patterns in the area of roller contact but I can't find 'em now.

    Quoted message said:

    (I presume the drag is about equivalent to the light output, plus some
    percentage for inefficiencies--say you get 5W or 6W of power loss at the
    wheels to get 3W of illumination--does that sound right?)

    It sounds optimistic for a bottle type generator.

    A comparison of generators:
    http://www.myra-simon.com/bike/dynotest.html

    A comparison of 6V 3W lights:
    http://www.fa-technik.adfc.de/Komponenten/Scheinwerfer/vergleich.htm

    Lots of good lighting info and links:
    http://www.audax.uk.net/lights/index.htm
    --
    zk

  17. I submit that on or about Thu, 15 Sep 2005 21:57:07 GMT, the person
    known to the court as SMS <[email hidden]> made a statement
    (<[email hidden]> in Your Honour's bundle) to
    the following effect:

    Quoted message said:

    Good snipping Guy, you're truly an expert and snipping to take things
    out of context.

    I've done my best to learn your techniques of evasion and
    misrepresentation, but it doesn't come as naturally to me as it does
    to you, so thanks for the praise.

    Guy
    --
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

  18. I submit that on or about Fri, 16 Sep 2005 00:57:37 -0400, the person
    known to the court as Chris BeHanna <[email hidden]> made a
    statement (<[email hidden]> in Your
    Honour's bundle) to the following effect:

    Quoted message said:

    on rural backgrounds--particularly on
    descents--it's nice to see if Bambi and friends are crossing the road
    well in advance.

    I find I can see *more* off-axis when using dynamo lights; with
    rechargeables there is a bright pool of light and everything outside
    is black (this is a weakness of the optics, not the power source),
    whereas with a well-focussed lamp the ambient light (of which there is
    usually a surprising amount) is not swamped. Just my experience (of
    several years of night commuting on country roads).

    In completely unlit areas and very dark nights I also use a headtorch.

    Guy
    --
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

  19. Bob Dole said:

    <<Some rim-drive block generator units are available here:
    http://www.bikelite.com/
    International Bike Lights, Redmond, Washington, USA >>

    I'm assuming that the main reason for rim-driven units (versus
    tire-driven) is because they are usable with knobby tires.

    They would be, they would also be less wearing on thin wall tires, and
    more likely to work with different tire designs, rather then working
    well with some tires, and poorly with others.

    Quoted message said:


    I'm assuming that rim-driven units would be more prone to skipping
    under wet conditions.

    It would depend on the "tread" on the roller, and the amount of sideways
    force on the rim. I would assume more interference from a dirty rim,
    then a wet one.....

    Quoted message said:

    Other than that, despite this site saying "These are totally different
    than tire-driven generators you may have known in the past and far
    superior." I'm assuming tire- and rim-driven generators are pretty much
    the same thing, and that the "totally different" is because of
    engineering efficiencies in the last 40 years.

    Most likely, but the generator can also do a lot more to try and prevent
    problems, like changing the roller tread, rims are all designed the
    same, where as tires are always being redesigned.

    Nothing really beats a hub generator though, but until hub generators
    become standard equipment on bikes, they will remain expensive and rare.
    I suspect this will change if laws required that bikes have lights in
    order to be operated on the road.

    W

    W

    it's hard to do much with a metal roller on a tire where you have no
    control over the tire design.

    Quoted message said:


    If any of you experts want to take a short break from attacking each
    other and comment on these assumptions, that would be fine.

  20. SMS said:
    Chris BeHanna said:

    I'm going to have to check out a dynamo system--I cannot carry
    enough water for a long ride *and* carry a NiMH battery for my
    headlamp, too (I lose one bottle cage to the battery). The battery
    won't last long enough for a long ride anyway (I get 3 hours with a
    single 3W beam on, 1.5 hours if I fire up both beams), especially
    after we switch back to standard time.

    There are many ways to add additional bottle cages. See
    "http://www.nordicgroup.us/cageboss.htm"

    Three hours is fine if your only riding for an hour or two, if however
    you need to ride all night, then you need a really big honkin' battery,
    and that can make for a very large, and heavy battery. Of course the
    ideal is maybe to run both. A low power, close up, dynamo powered
    light, and a longer distance battery powered "high beam", for when you
    need to see stuff further away.

    Another idea, and I have proposed this one before, is a dynamo that
    feeds power into the battery charger, so that the dynamo is at least
    partly charging the battery during the day, and at night it's assisting
    on providing light, so the battery is draining slower. It wouldn't be
    hard to build the needed circuitry with a chip or two, build the dynamo
    into the hub. Maybe put the battery and charging circuits into a box
    above the bottom bracket or even inside the top tube (a nicer design, IMHO).

    W

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