Lights

"Just zis Guy, you know?" wrote > All gold plated, obviously. Either that
or your LBS *really* don't

Quoted message said:

want your custom!

Guy

The Schmidt dynamo hub retails for $200 + in this country, which is why I
bought the Shimano instead for $90. Schmidt lights are $100+, B&M are
$45-65. There's a very limited market for these items in the US, the Schmidt
hubs are imported by a two person operation in New Hampshire (Peter White
Cycles), and I've never seen them offered by an LBS. The Shimano generator
hubs just recently became available through Shimano's official distribution
channels, before that they were only offered as a grey market item by Harris
Cyclery/Sheldon Brown, who imported them privately. All the high quality
lighting systems that I've seen in this country have been rechargeable
battery systems aimed at the mountain bike market, the majority of US
cyclists have never seen or heard of a dynamo/generator light system.

Now that Shimano is "officially" importing hub generators, the price is
significantly less than when they were a grey market item ($90 vs$120).
Hopefully this will expand the market, create a bigger market for high end
stuff like the Schmidt, and bring down prices for the Schmidt products.

As US fuel prices start to catch up to European prices, maybe we'll see more
interest in utility cycling, and maybe stuff like decent lights,
fenders/mudguards, and practrical racks and luggage carrying systems will
become more widely available.
--
mark

mark wrote:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Now that Shimano is "officially" importing hub generators, the price is
significantly less than when they were a grey market item ($90 vs$120).
Hopefully this will expand the market, create a bigger market for high end
stuff like the Schmidt, and bring down prices for the Schmidt products.

I'm wondering about the Joule hub dynamo that Dahon is using. I haven't
seen it offered anywhere other than on Dahon wheels, and not in the
U.S.. Dahon is only charging an extra $75 for the dynamo and lights.

BTW, Guy is well aware of the prices of dynamo lighting systems in the
U.S., it's been explained to him numerous times, with references of course.

SMS said:

Bill said:

Some of the switchers can go up to 95% but that may be too much
circuitry and money to throw at the problem.

I was including the losses from the bridge rectifier to convert the AC
out of the dynamo, to DC. You'd be right around 80%, with a good design.
So with a 6W dynamo, you're losing 1.2W, which is unacceptable.

I was thinking higher tech like synchronous FETs in the bridge and some
other high tech stuff, but it might, as I mentioned get too expensive
for all but the elite with too much money. Losing a watt or 2 would not
be bad since it would force you to ride a little slower at night.
Seems logical to me, but then I have ridden country roads with only the
light from a quarter moon. Working indoors and using sunglasses outdoors
does wonders for preserving the night vision.
Damn, got carried away again.
Bill

SMS said:

I'm wondering about the Joule hub dynamo that Dahon is using. I haven't
seen it offered anywhere other than on Dahon wheels, and not in the
U.S.. Dahon is only charging an extra $75 for the dynamo and lights.

I wonder about that one too. ISTR hearing it's a low-grade Schmidt
copy. I have no idea about its efficiency or reliability. All hub
dynamos are not created equal, of course.

Quoted message said:

BTW, Guy is well aware of the prices of dynamo lighting systems in the
U.S., it's been explained to him numerous times, with references of course.

Steven M. Scharf is well aware of the prices of dynamo lighting
systems, too. His standard trick is to pick the world's most expensive
systems and pretend that only they are adequate.

People who are interested in the range of prices might browse
http://www.sjscycles.com/store/vIndex.htm?cat208.htm
and
http://www.sjscycles.com/store/vIndex.htm?cat366.htm

Note that they list the products by decreasing price. Good generators
can be had quite cheaply. Also, note that ordering from Britain is
about as easy as ordering from, say, Nashbar.

It's true that bike generators are out of fashion in the US, so hard to
find. But as usual, it's not as bad as SMS makes it out to be. Try
http://www.loosescrews.com/index.cgi?d=single&c=Accessories&sc=Generator&tc=&item_id=UF-23009&id=67353569642
or http://tinyurl.com/chsnm

There are many others.

- Frank Krygowski

I submit that on or about Tue, 13 Sep 2005 21:07:39 GMT, the person
known to the court as SMS <[email hidden]> made a statement
(<[email hidden]> in Your Honour's bundle) to
the following effect:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Not reliable, no over voltage protection, difficult to attach, lousy optics.
Just what are they sufficient for?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Millions of Dutch people, according to my observations :-)

Quoted message said:

This is true. The riding conditions in the Netherlands are such that you
can get away with a lot less in terms of lighting.

Yes, the darkness in Holland is of a completely different character to
that in the rest of the world. I'm told they have a special moon,
made of cheese, to give light at night.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

I submit that on or about Tue, 13 Sep 2005 21:15:44 GMT, the person
known to the court as SMS <[email hidden]> made a statement
(<[email hidden]> in Your Honour's bundle) to
the following effect:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I was calcultating the cost of the Schmidt wheel, two headlights and a
tail light.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

All gold plated, obviously. Either that or your LBS *really* don't
want your custom!

Quoted message said:

You cannot buy any of this at an LBS in the U.S., except perhaps Harris
Cyclery.

Or Peter White. But you can't buy it in a LBS here, off the shelf -
you have it ordered in. It takes about a week. And the cost is still
a lot less than you quote, especially if you build in to the original
rim (most of my bikes came supplied with a front wheel, I don't know
about yours).

Quoted message said:

But of course you knew all this, you're just being stupid, for a change.

Ah, the insults fly. Of course, it is essential to your point to
pretend that those who say all systems work are in fact saying only
one system works, so that your assertion that the most common system
in the world is grossly inadequate appears less like the unsupportable
dogma which, in truth, it is.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

I submit that on or about Tue, 13 Sep 2005 21:41:12 GMT, the person
known to the court as "mark" <[email hidden]> made a statement
(<[email hidden]> in Your
Honour's bundle) to the following effect:

Quoted message said:

The Schmidt dynamo hub retails for $200 + in this country, which is why I
bought the Shimano instead for $90. Schmidt lights are $100+, B&M are
$45-65.

That's $300 for a complete set, using the SON, which is the
Rolls-Royce of dynamo hubs.

There is a history here. Scharf does not like dynamo lights. He
seeks to use any argument he can to "prove" they are less good than
rechargeables. Me, I use both kinds, and I prefer dynamos for
commuting bikes (because they are always there and have infinite burn
time).

Scharf seeks to pretend that those who say all systems are acceptable,
are really saying that only dynamos work. That makes his unsupported
assertions against dynamo systems seem less like prejudice. But in
reality I think people are smart enough to work out whether a system
provides enough light for them: I find that the 2x3W on my recumbent,
powered by a SON, is OK up to about 30mph in the dark, but I won't go
faster than that. I think that's an acceptable compromise. I lose a
few mph at two points on my ride, in exchange for never having to
worry about charging my lights.

One of Scharf's straw men is to pretend that only the very most
expensive dynamo sets work. This is false: even cheap ones work. The
Nexus hub (which you have, and so do I) works really well, in my
experience, nearly as well as the SON. I commuted on one (on a mixed
commute of unlit country roads and busy urban streets) for a couple of
years, and still have one on my tourer. I used a single 3W lamp for
much of that time, plus a headtorch. I like headtorches for night
riding and often use one. I can get a whole season out of six
alkaline cells, because you only need it in the very darkest places. I
use the headtorch irrespective of whether I'm riding on rechargeables
or dynamo.

I've also commuted on NiMH rechargeables, lead acid rechargeables,
alkaline cells, an old Union bottom-bracket dynamo and so on. All
have strengths and weaknesses. But as I say, for a utility bike I
think a dynamo is really hard to beat, because it is always there. If
you end up leaving later than you expected in summer, the lights are
ready to go. I know a lot of cyclists who have ended up going home b
y cab because "hey, it's summer, why would I need my lights?" And
some who have ridden home in the dark, lightless. Admittedly I have
no proof that this is actually dangerous, but I don't like the idea!

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

SMS said:

Just zis Guy said:

I submit that on or about Thu, 08 Sep 2005 02:20:11 GMT, the person
known to the court as "mark" <[email hidden]> made a statement
(<[email hidden]> in Your
Honour's bundle) to the following effect:

Quoted message said:

Not reliable, no over voltage protection, difficult to attach, lousy
optics. Just what are they sufficient for?

Millions of Dutch people, according to my observations :-)

This is true. The riding conditions in the Netherlands are such that you
can get away with a lot less in terms of lighting.

I visited the Netherlands a couple years ago and it got dark
every night for the three weeks I was there.

Seems a light would be useful at least for three weeks per
year.

SMH

"Just zis Guy, you know?" wrote

Quoted message said:

That's $300 for a complete set, using the SON, which is the
Rolls-Royce of dynamo hubs.

Most people would want spokes and a rim, and many would pay a wheel builder
to assemble all the components into a working whole. Scharf's $500 figure
was for 2 headlights and a taillight (your system), and it appears to me
that one could spend more than $500 on such a system pretty easily at US
prices.

Quoted message said:

There is a history here. Scharf does not like dynamo lights. He
seeks to use any argument he can to "prove" they are less good than
rechargeables. Me, I use both kinds, and I prefer dynamos for
commuting bikes (because they are always there and have infinite burn
time).

Scharf seeks to pretend that those who say all systems are acceptable,
are really saying that only dynamos work. That makes his unsupported
assertions against dynamo systems seem less like prejudice. But in
reality I think people are smart enough to work out whether a system
provides enough light for them: I find that the 2x3W on my recumbent,
powered by a SON, is OK up to about 30mph in the dark, but I won't go
faster than that. I think that's an acceptable compromise. I lose a
few mph at two points on my ride, in exchange for never having to
worry about charging my lights.

One of Scharf's straw men is to pretend that only the very most
expensive dynamo sets work. This is false: even cheap ones work. The
Nexus hub (which you have, and so do I) works really well, in my
experience, nearly as well as the SON. I commuted on one (on a mixed
commute of unlit country roads and busy urban streets) for a couple of
years, and still have one on my tourer. I used a single 3W lamp for
much of that time, plus a headtorch. I like headtorches for night
riding and often use one. I can get a whole season out of six
alkaline cells, because you only need it in the very darkest places. I
use the headtorch irrespective of whether I'm riding on rechargeables
or dynamo.

The "Wal-Mart level" system that Jasper Janssen referred to at the start of
this exchange seems to me to be of much lower quality than the Nexus/Lumotec
system that I now have and that you upgraded from. If the millions of Dutch
cyclists you refer to are on well paved, well lit cycle paths then it
probably is adequate, but I would guess that a flashlight duct-taped to the
handlebars would work at least as well in those conditions.

Quoted message said:

I've also commuted on NiMH rechargeables, lead acid rechargeables,
alkaline cells, an old Union bottom-bracket dynamo and so on. All
have strengths and weaknesses. But as I say, for a utility bike I
think a dynamo is really hard to beat, because it is always there. If
you end up leaving later than you expected in summer, the lights are
ready to go. I know a lot of cyclists who have ended up going home b
y cab because "hey, it's summer, why would I need my lights?" And
some who have ridden home in the dark, lightless. Admittedly I have
no proof that this is actually dangerous, but I don't like the idea!

I've tried a few battery systems and I recall cheap bottle dynamos from my
childhood in Germany. My only complaint about my new hub dynamo setup is
that Shimano didn't make them available in this country sooner, although I
suppose I could have paid the grey market price or bought the SON. I have no
rigorous proof either that cycling in the dark/lightless is dangerous, but
my own experience suggests that it is.
--
mark

Just zis Guy said:

I submit that on or about Tue, 13 Sep 2005 21:41:12 GMT, the person
known to the court as "mark" <[email hidden]> made a statement
(<[email hidden]> in Your
Honour's bundle) to the following effect:

Quoted message said:

The Schmidt dynamo hub retails for $200 + in this country, which is why I
bought the Shimano instead for $90. Schmidt lights are $100+, B&M are
$45-65.

That's $300 for a complete set, using the SON, which is the
Rolls-Royce of dynamo hubs.

Nope, that's just the hub, not the wheel. You can check the prices at
Peter White's site. But of course you already know that what we say is
true, you just don't like it. And yes, some people could take their
existing wheel, remove all the spokes, and re-use the rim and build
their own new wheel for the cost of the spokes and their time.

Quoted message said:

There is a history here. Scharf does not like dynamo lights.

Not true. I have dynamo lights, and I like them in the situations for
which they are well suited. Your lying about the U.S. pricing doesn't
help your position, especially because everyone can easily check the
facts. Likewise, you are well aware of the differences in riding
conditions in the Netherlands versus the U.S., and why less illumination
is not a problem in the Netherlands. Stupid statements about the quality
of the moonlight do not make you look smart.

Quoted message said:

One of Scharf's straw men is to pretend that only the very most
expensive dynamo sets work.

I have never stated this. They all work. Some are much better at
providing sufficient illumination than others.

<snip>

No offense Guy, but your continuing mis-statement of the facts, facts
which are easily verifiable by anyone, doesn't help your case.

mark said:

"Just zis Guy, you know?" wrote

Quoted message said:

That's $300 for a complete set, using the SON, which is the
Rolls-Royce of dynamo hubs.

Most people would want spokes and a rim, and many would pay a wheel builder
to assemble all the components into a working whole. Scharf's $500 figure
was for 2 headlights and a taillight (your system), and it appears to me
that one could spend more than $500 on such a system pretty easily at US
prices.

Just one correction, it's not "my" figure, it's the figure you get by
adding up the prices at the retailer's web site. It's not like these
prices came out of thin air!

Quoted message said:

The "Wal-Mart level" system that Jasper Janssen referred to at the start of
this exchange seems to me to be of much lower quality than the Nexus/Lumotec
system that I now have and that you upgraded from. If the millions of Dutch
cyclists you refer to are on well paved, well lit cycle paths then it
probably is adequate, but I would guess that a flashlight duct-taped to the
handlebars would work at least as well in those conditions.

This is indeed the key point. Guy makes comments about the quality of
the moonlight, even though he is well aware of the actual differences
between the Netherlands and most other areas.

It's either amusing or annoying when people that know the facts,
intentionally mangle them, trying to prove something that everyone else
already knows isn't so. No one has any doubt that Guy has checked the
prices at "http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/Schmidt-Lumotec.asp" and
knows that everything that I wrote was accurate. Just as no one doesn't
comprehend the differences between the Netherlands, and most other
places, when it comes to the cycling infrastructure.

Quoted message said:

I've tried a few battery systems and I recall cheap bottle dynamos from my
childhood in Germany. My only complaint about my new hub dynamo setup is
that Shimano didn't make them available in this country sooner, although I
suppose I could have paid the grey market price or bought the SON. I have no
rigorous proof either that cycling in the dark/lightless is dangerous, but
my own experience suggests that it is.

There probably are no statistics that are detailed enough to be useful.
However, when cycling with very good lights, I find that vehicles are
more likely to see me than in the daytime. One reason is that they
probably cannot distinguish between my bicycle and a motorcycle, so they
don't assume a slow speed vehicle is approaching them.

SMS said:

It's either amusing or annoying when people that know the facts,
intentionally mangle them, trying to prove something that everyone else
already knows isn't so.

:-) Like that guy who repeatedly pretends all good generators cost
over $300!

[regarding safety of night riding with lights:]

Quoted message said:

There probably are no statistics that are detailed enough to be useful.

I agree. Part of the reason is: despite the hype, truly serious bike
accidents are extremely rare. Thus it would take a very large effort
to collect enough data points to reach valid conclusions. And due to
the rarity of serious accidents, nobody wants to spend money for a
large effort.

Quoted message said:

However, when cycling with very good lights, I find that vehicles are
more likely to see me than in the daytime.

Yes, indeed. I see that same effect cycling with my "very good"
Soubitez generator and headlight. If anything, motorists are almost
too solicitous.

- Frank Krygowski

mark said:

The "Wal-Mart level" system that Jasper Janssen referred to at the start of
this exchange seems to me to be of much lower quality than the Nexus/Lumotec
system that I now have and that you upgraded from. If the millions of Dutch
cyclists you refer to are on well paved, well lit cycle paths then it
probably is adequate, but I would guess that a flashlight duct-taped to the
handlebars would work at least as well in those conditions.

I think one of the key points is that for $20 you can buy a Twofish
Cyclopblock, and a Maglite 2C flashlight, and have a far better
headlight than what you get with a $20 dynamo from a discount store (or
for that matter, even better than the Union Marwi systems at around
$35). Plus it's usable for other stuff, like repairs, and doesn't go off
when you stop, and is adjustable from spot to flood. Add a good LED
flasher and you're still under $50. Or get the Streamlight 51002 TT-3C
flashlight for around $10 more, and get both LEDs and a xenon bulb.

I'd avoid the cheap LED headlights because they don't project a usable
beam, though they're okay for "being seen."

I'd avoid the el-cheapo discount store dynamo systems like the plague,
but you can easily outfit your bicycle with a decent battery powered
lighting system for about the same money. For occasional use, using
alkaline batteries is okay, though NiMH cells are pretty cheap now too.

In article <[email hidden]>,

SMS said:

I think one of the key points is that for $20 you can buy a Twofish
Cyclopblock, and a Maglite 2C flashlight, and have a far better
headlight than what you get with a $20 dynamo from a discount store (or
for that matter, even better than the Union Marwi systems at around
$35).

Even the antiquated Union U-100 headlights (which I'm
currently using) have superior optics to any flashlight's.
And the headlights that come with those cheap-o generator
systems are at least as good. The parabolic reflectors
and the front lenses are intelligently designed and
manufactured.

WRT to your price comparison above, you appear to
have neglected to include the price of cells, and
(possibly) rechargers.

cheers,
Tom

--
-- Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

Wed, 14 Sep 2005 20:08:04 GMT,
<[email hidden]>, SMS

Quoted message said:

There probably are no statistics that are detailed enough to be useful.
However, when cycling with very good lights, I find that vehicles are
more likely to see me than in the daytime.

I ride with a daytime running light.
It's the same one as I use at night.
--
zk

SMS said:

I think one of the key points is that for $20 you can buy a Twofish
Cyclopblock, and a Maglite 2C flashlight, and have a far better
headlight than what you get with a $20 dynamo from a discount store (or
for that matter, even better than the Union Marwi systems at around
$35).

Absolute, unmitigated [censored].

The Maglite has a conical beam which is not designed to illuminate the
road. And the Maglite bulb puts out fewer lumens than a decent
generator bulb - FAR fewer if you put a halogen bulb in the generator
lamp.

By cobbling together your flashlight kludge, you're getting less light
and wasting more of the light you get. And you still have to feed it
batteries, either paying for disposables or remembering to care for
rechargeables. If the latter, you'll also have to pay for a charger.

You can get by that way if you insist. But then you'll be phoning your
mommy the first time you have to suddenly work past dark, with your
flashlight in the drawer at home. Or the first time you've forgotten
that your batteries are already dead.

Quoted message said:

Plus it's usable for other stuff, like repairs,

You must have to repair your bike a lot more than I do! But if you do,
you can get an adequate LED button battery flashlight for about $5.
That's what I take bike camping.

Quoted message said:

and doesn't go off when you stop,

Never a problem in my decades of experience with generator lights.

Quoted message said:

and is adjustable from spot to flood.

None of which light the road properly.

Quoted message said:

I'd avoid the el-cheapo discount store dynamo systems like the plague,

We know you would. But have you ever installed any? I have. They
work well.

- Frank Krygowski

<[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

... note that ordering from Britain is
about as easy as ordering from, say, Nashbar.

Yep. I've got a generator I ordered mail order from the U.K. on my
winter/rain bike now.

Only one minor problem. It's a one-piece unit (bottle generator and light in
one piece that attaches to the front fork). Since I ordered it from the
U.K., it fits on the right side of the wheel, when it would be better if it
were on the left side of the wheel. [They drive on the left in the U.K.].
Doesn't make much difference, though.

mark said:

The "Wal-Mart level" system that Jasper Janssen referred to at the start of
this exchange seems to me to be of much lower quality than the Nexus/Lumotec
system that I now have and that you upgraded from. If the millions of Dutch
cyclists you refer to are on well paved, well lit cycle paths then it
probably is adequate, but I would guess that a flashlight duct-taped to the
handlebars would work at least as well in those conditions.

Amusingly, I was at a city council meeting tonight, and one of the
speakers cornered me outside because I was speaking about bicycle issues
and she had had a near miss on her bike earlier in the day. She walked
to her bicycle, which had a flashlight duct-taped to the handlears,
something I had never seen around here before. There are a several
devices that can be used to attach a flashlight to a bicycle for use as
a light, all much better than duct tape!

On one bicycle, I use a Two-Fish Lock-Block and a Streamlight Strion
("http://www.streamlight.com/strion_info.htm"😉 which is far brighter
than any generator light, except the 6W headlights used with the
Busch-Muller Dymotec S12.

I have a section of flashlight type lights on the web site, at
"http://nordicgroup.us/s78/flashlights.html"

I submit that on or about Thu, 15 Sep 2005 03:13:39 GMT, the person
known to the court as "Mike Kruger" <[email hidden]> made a
statement (<[email hidden]> in Your
Honour's bundle) to the following effect:

Quoted message said:

Only one minor problem. It's a one-piece unit (bottle generator and light in
one piece that attaches to the front fork). Since I ordered it from the
U.K., it fits on the right side of the wheel, when it would be better if it
were on the left side of the wheel.

I'm curious, what brand is it? Most of the decent ones seem to be
made in Germany, and they drive on the right.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

I submit that on or about Wed, 14 Sep 2005 16:41:02 GMT, the person
known to the court as "mark" <[email hidden]> made a statement
(<[email hidden]> in Your
Honour's bundle) to the following effect:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That's $300 for a complete set, using the SON, which is the
Rolls-Royce of dynamo hubs.

Quoted message said:

Most people would want spokes and a rim, and many would pay a wheel builder
to assemble all the components into a working whole. Scharf's $500 figure
was for 2 headlights and a taillight (your system), and it appears to me
that one could spend more than $500 on such a system pretty easily at US
prices.

Most people already have a rim on their bike...

My last wheel build cost me $35 (at today's exchange rates) including
spokes. But the SON I bought for my Brompton was built into the wheel
at no extra cost, because it was a new bike. Some commuter bikes can
be bought with dynamo hubs as an option.

Quoted message said:

The "Wal-Mart level" system that Jasper Janssen referred to at the start of
this exchange seems to me to be of much lower quality than the Nexus/Lumotec
system that I now have and that you upgraded from. If the millions of Dutch
cyclists you refer to are on well paved, well lit cycle paths then it
probably is adequate, but I would guess that a flashlight duct-taped to the
handlebars would work at least as well in those conditions.

Up to a point. No route is well-lit all the way, after all. The
question is, does it work in the sense of getting you from A to B, and
the answer is: yes it does. Perhaps not as well as a top-quality
system, but then most riders aren't that fussed about keeping up a
high speed.

Quoted message said:

I've tried a few battery systems and I recall cheap bottle dynamos from my
childhood in Germany. My only complaint about my new hub dynamo setup is
that Shimano didn't make them available in this country sooner, although I
suppose I could have paid the grey market price or bought the SON. I have no
rigorous proof either that cycling in the dark/lightless is dangerous, but
my own experience suggests that it is.

That's kind of my point: although I spend a fortune on lighting
(generally I spend more on the lights for a bike, whichever system I
use, than most people spend on the entire bike), I have no actual
evidence that using lights at night makes any difference at all.
Scharf goes further: he asserts that only very bright lights are any
good at all. Since I have never seen any hard evidence that lights
make any difference in the first place, I find this hard to credit. I
have asked him several times for the evidential basis for his claim,
but all he comes up with are names of others who also believe the same
thing - which is, of course, not actually evidence, especially since
there are other others (if you see what I mean) who believe that
dynamo systems are sufficient, and these include some of the most
experienced night riders around.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound