UK and Europe · Public discussion

Letter in Auto Express

Started by Mark Tranchant · · Last activity · 15 posts · 605 views

Thread navigation

Jump through the discussion

Go to the original post, the replies on this page, or the latest preserved contribution.

Thread details

What we know about this thread

Original section
UK and Europe
Published
20 May 2004
Last activity
25 May 2004
Original author
Mark Tranchant
Posts
15
Discussion status
Public discussion
Total views
605
Views / 30 days
0

The navigation and discussion metadata provide context. Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Showing posts 1–15 of 15
Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Text size
  1. In this week's Auto Express, P Jenkins asks who is
    responsible if a motorist hits a cyclist whilst that cyclist
    is in an "on-road" cycle lane; that is, does the presence of
    a cycle lane obviate the requirement for the driver to keep
    a reasonable distance? Is the motorist responsible, or is it
    the council's fault for providing inadequate cycle lanes?

    I've already written to make the comparison with pedestrians
    on pavements, and pointed out my objections to the
    implementation of most on-road cycle paths.

    You may choose to do likewise. editorial at autoexpress dot
    co dot uk.

    --
    Mark.

  2. Mark Tranchant said:

    In this week's Auto Express, P Jenkins asks who is
    responsible if a motorist hits a cyclist whilst that
    cyclist is in an "on-road" cycle lane

    As if I could resist!

    The obvious answer to P Jenkins' query re cycle lanes (of
    course the driver is at fault!) masks an interesting
    question: for whose benefit are cycle lanes constructed?
    There is a substantial body of evidence showing that cycle
    lanes are less safe on average than riding in the main flow
    of traffic, and many on-road lanes are not only
    significantly narrower than the recommended minimum width,
    they may be narrower than a bike. Remember, too, that a bike
    needs to weave in order to stay upright (which is why the
    Highway Code advises giving cyclists plenty of room, and
    even offers a pretty picture of How It Should Be Done).

    The Stationery Office publishes a book called Cyclecraft
    (ISBN 0 11 702051
    6) which is the nearest thing we have to an official manual
    on cycling. The advice is clear: a cyclist needs to
    choose a road position which ensures their safety, and
    this usually translates to roughly the left-hand
    wheeltrack of motor traffic (although it may well be much
    further out at hazards such as width restrictions).

    The reasons for this advice are clear and obvious: it places
    the cycle in a position where it is likely to be seen by
    drivers scanning for traffic; and it gently reminds
    following drivers that the cyclist is not a theoretical
    construct of zero thickness and infinite rigidity, but a
    vehicle, which should be overtaken properly or not at all.

    Both of these benefits are subverted by many on-road cycle
    lanes, and almost all shared-use facilities.

    Happily there is now a programme run by the CTC, Britain's
    largest cycling organisation, which seeks to spread best
    practice in cycle provision. Ironically, cycle-friendly
    changes are often substantially cheaper and easier to
    introduce than poorly designed "farcilities" which introduce
    precisely the kinds of conflict which Mr Jenkins noted.

  3. "Mark Tranchant" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    In this week's Auto Express, P Jenkins asks who is
    responsible if a motorist hits a cyclist whilst that
    cyclist is in an "on-road" cycle lane; that is, does the
    presence of a cycle lane obviate the requirement for the
    driver to keep a reasonable distance?

    It's hard to believe people so stupid are allowed to be in
    charge of any road going vehicle!

    He may as well ask who's responsible if a motorist hits a
    kerbside skip in good visibility. Imagine trying to explain
    to your insurance company you drove into the skip because
    it wasn't a motor vehicle but was on the road anyway. Of
    course we know that Jenkins wouldn't drive into a skip
    because it would damage his car and maybe even hurt
    him....hmm....on second thought maybe someone that thick
    would drive into anything he/she/it thought had no right to
    be where it is ;-)
    --
    Regards, Pete

  4. "Mark Tranchant" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    In this week's Auto Express, P Jenkins asks who is
    responsible if a motorist hits a cyclist whilst that
    cyclist is in an "on-road" cycle lane; that is, does the
    presence of a cycle lane obviate the requirement for the
    driver to keep a reasonable distance?

    It's hard to believe people so stupid are allowed to be in
    charge of any road going vehicle!

    He may as well ask who's responsible if a motorist hits a
    kerbside skip in good visibility. Imagine trying to explain
    to your insurance company you drove into the skip because
    it wasn't a motor vehicle but was on the road anyway. Of
    course we know that Jenkins wouldn't drive into a skip
    because it would damage his car and maybe even hurt
    him....hmm....on second thought maybe someone that thick
    would drive into anything he/she/it thought had no right to
    be where it is ;-)
    --
    Regards, Pete

  5. On Thu, 20 May 2004 13:34:36 +0100, Mark Tranchant
    <[email hidden]> wrote (more or less):

    Quoted message said:

    In this week's Auto Express, P Jenkins asks who is
    responsible if a motorist hits a cyclist whilst that
    cyclist is in an "on-road" cycle lane;

    "Who is responsible if a motorist hits a parked car whilst
    that parked car is 'on-road' when parked?"

    The crassness guilt-avoidance of this question beggars
    belief.

    Quoted message said:

    that is, does the presence of a cycle lane obviate the
    requirement for the driver to keep a reasonable distance?
    Is the motorist responsible, or is it the council's fault
    for providing inadequate cycle lanes?

    I've already written to make the comparison with
    pedestrians on pavements, and pointed out my objections to
    the implementation of most on-road cycle paths.

    You may choose to do likewise. editorial at autoexpress dot
    co dot uk.

    --
    Cheers, Euan Gawnsoft: gawnsoft.co.srgawnsoft.co.sr
    Symbian/Epoc wiki: html.dnsalias.nethtml.dnsalias.net Smalltalk
    links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk)
    html.dnsalias.netsmalltalk

  6. Mark Tranchant said:

    In this week's Auto Express, P Jenkins asks who is
    responsible if a motorist hits a cyclist whilst that
    cyclist is in an "on-road" cycle lane; that is, does the
    presence of a cycle lane obviate the requirement for the
    driver to keep a reasonable distance? Is the motorist
    responsible, or is it the council's fault for providing
    inadequate cycle lanes?

    My first reaction to this is neither shock nor horror, but
    simply confusion. If the cyclist is hit whilst in the cycle-
    lane, then clearly the driver must have been encroaching
    into the cycle lane. Whether or no the cycle lane was
    mandatory I would have thought even the dimmest or most self-
    righteous of drivers would have realised it was bad
    practice to drive into it and knock someone down from
    behind (which seems? to be the relevant scenario) - so
    perhaps P Jenkins was thinking of something different.
    There could be at least a little merit in the question "is
    it OK to pass someone closer than you otherwise would, if
    there is a clear dividing line that shows where each party
    should be" - for example.

    Could you post a link to the original letter?

    It sounds as if P Jenkins is thinking (in some fashion)
    about cyclist-car interaction and has some awareness of the
    problems many cycle-lanes have. Advanced stuff for many
    people on the roads.

    AC

    Quoted message said:


    I've already written to make the comparison with
    pedestrians on pavements, and pointed out my objections to
    the implementation of most on-road cycle paths.

    You may choose to do likewise. editorial at autoexpress
    dot co dot uk.

  7. On Thu, 20 May 2004 16:39:13 +0000 (UTC), "Peter B"
    <[email hidden]> wrote (more or less):

    Quoted message said:


    "Mark Tranchant" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    In this week's Auto Express, P Jenkins asks who is
    responsible if a motorist hits a cyclist whilst that
    cyclist is in an "on-road" cycle lane; that is, does the
    presence of a cycle lane obviate the requirement for the
    driver to keep a reasonable distance?

    It's hard to believe people so stupid are allowed to be in
    charge of any road going vehicle!

    He may as well ask who's responsible if a motorist hits a
    kerbside skip in good visibility. Imagine trying to explain
    to your insurance company you drove into the skip because
    it wasn't a motor vehicle but was on the road anyway. Of
    course we know that Jenkins wouldn't drive into a skip
    because it would damage his car and maybe even hurt
    him....hmm....

    Quoted message said:

    on second thought maybe someone that thick would drive
    into anything he/she/it thought had no right to be where
    it is ;-)

    There are people who feel this way, and who do act on it.

    When I was on the advanced and defensive driving course run
    by the Corporation of London, we were told of lots of
    genuine incidents of the recent past.

    Including one driver (in a fast Escort) who, when
    confronted with some pedestrians crossing ahead (at a red
    man) speeded up so that he was able to hit them before they
    finished crossing to show them that they "shouldn't have
    been there". He did hit them, ambulances called, police
    statements taken etc.,

    --
    Cheers, Euan Gawnsoft: gawnsoft.co.srgawnsoft.co.sr
    Symbian/Epoc wiki: html.dnsalias.nethtml.dnsalias.net Smalltalk
    links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk)
    html.dnsalias.netsmalltalk

  8. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Gawnsoft said:
    Quoted message said:

    In this week's Auto Express, P Jenkins asks who is
    responsible if a motorist hits a cyclist whilst that
    cyclist is in an "on-road" cycle lane;

    "Who is responsible if a motorist hits a parked car whilst
    that parked car is 'on-road' when parked?"

    The crassness guilt-avoidance of this question
    beggars belief.

    Erm, I think you've missed his point. His comment looks to
    me like a very valid one about many so-called cycle lanes.

    --
    Nick Kew

    Nick's manifesto: htmlhelp.com~nick

  9. anonymous coward <[email hidden]>typed

    Quoted message said:

    My first reaction to this is neither shock nor horror, but
    simply confusion. If the cyclist is hit whilst in the cycle-
    lane, then clearly the driver must have been encroaching
    into the cycle lane.

    He might not have encroached the cycle lane. Cyclists are
    wider than their wheelbase. The motorist would, of course,
    have passed *far* too close to the cyclist, whatever silly
    paint stripes were on the road.

    --
    Helen D. Vecht: [email hidden] Edgware.

  10. "Nick Kew" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,
    Gawnsoft
    <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    In this week's Auto Express, P Jenkins asks who is
    responsible if a motorist hits a cyclist whilst that
    cyclist is in an "on-road" cycle lane;

    "Who is responsible if a motorist hits a parked car
    whilst that parked car is 'on-road' when parked?"

    The crassness guilt-avoidance of this question beggars
    belief.

    Erm, I think you've missed his point. His comment looks to
    me like a very valid one about many so-called cycle lanes.

    Sorry I'm not with you. If I'm driving and can see something
    encroaching into the marked lane I'm using I try not to
    collide with it regardless of any other factors. If I can
    see it but still collide with it I think I'd feel a prat.
    --
    Regards, Pete

  11. Peter B said:

    Sorry I'm not with you. If I'm driving and can see
    something encroaching into the marked lane I'm using I
    try not to collide with it regardless of any other
    factors. If I can see it but still collide with it I
    think I'd feel a prat.

    ...and we all know how rare prats are on the roads. ;-)

    --
    m.

  12. Helen Deborah Vecht <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    anonymous coward <[email hidden]>typed

    Quoted message said:

    My first reaction to this is neither shock nor horror,
    but simply confusion. If the cyclist is hit whilst in
    the cycle-lane, then clearly the driver must have been
    encroaching into the cycle lane.

    He might not have encroached the cycle lane. Cyclists are
    wider than their wheelbase.

    ITYM "than their track".

    Quoted message said:

    The motorist would, of course, have passed *far* too
    close to the cyclist, whatever silly paint stripes were
    on the road.

    This of course is one of the many problems with cycle lanes.
    Many motorists think they can get as close as they like to
    the cyclist as long as they don't actually cross the line.
    I'm often more aware of cars passing uncomfortably closely
    when I'm in a cycle lane. The one type of collision that
    cycle lanes are supposed to protect us from - being hit from
    behind - is made more likely, not less, as indeed are many
    other types.

    --
    Dave...

    Dangerous places, cycle lanes.

  13. Helen Deborah Vecht <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    anonymous coward <[email hidden]>typed

    Quoted message said:

    My first reaction to this is neither shock nor horror,
    but simply confusion. If the cyclist is hit whilst in
    the cycle-lane, then clearly the driver must have been
    encroaching into the cycle lane.

    He might not have encroached the cycle lane. Cyclists are
    wider than their wheelbase.

    ITYM "than their track".

    Quoted message said:

    The motorist would, of course, have passed *far* too
    close to the cyclist, whatever silly paint stripes were
    on the road.

    This of course is one of the many problems with cycle lanes.
    Many motorists think they can get as close as they like to
    the cyclist as long as they don't actually cross the line.
    I'm often more aware of cars passing uncomfortably closely
    when I'm in a cycle lane. The one type of collision that
    cycle lanes are supposed to protect us from - being hit from
    behind - is made more likely, not less, as indeed are many
    other types.

    --
    Dave...

    Dangerous places, cycle lanes.

  14. On 24 May 2004 07:45:56 -0700 someone who may be
    [email hidden] (Dave Kahn) wrote this:-

    Quoted message said:

    Many motorists think they can get as close as they like to
    the cyclist as long as they don't actually cross the line.
    I'm often more aware of cars passing uncomfortably closely
    when I'm in a cycle lane.

    You have cycle lanes wider than your handlebars?

    --
    David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number
    F566DA0E I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK
    government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.

  15. David Hansen said:

    You have cycle lanes wider than your handlebars?

    There is one near me that's about 30 yards long and a
    glorious eight-ish feet wide at one end, tapering down to
    the usual two-foot gap. Red tarmac, solid white line, swept
    by the council sweeper (aside from the gap, but we can't all
    be perfect).

    It leads right up to a cyclist dismount sign, and is often
    used as a car park by visitors to the small business
    beside it.

    As an aside, here in sunny Sheffield I saw a driver today
    who didn't wish to park down a side street and walk 20
    yards to his shop, or double-park on the tram tracks, so
    preferred instead to completely mount the pavement (over
    one of those hefty kerbs that discourage this sort of
    thing), manouvre between several signposts, and park across
    the front of the shop...

    ...and then put on his hazard lights.

    R.

Active in the last 60 minutes

Active in this thread

0 users · 0 guests ·0 bots ·0 total

No signed-in users are active right now.

No known search crawlers active right now.