Legalized draft



In article <d2n6e.959099$6l.521368@pd7tw2no>,
Triathlete <[email protected]> wrote:

> Hey, did you pull one over on me for April Fools?
>
> Harold Buck wrote:
> > I just spotted this on the USAT website: effective June 1, all USAT
> > age-group events will be draft-legal. They said something about wanting
> > a larger pool of people with drafting experience to draw from for the US
> > Olympic team. It will be interesting to see how this turns out; I think
> > a lot of races will renounce their USAT affiliation.
> >

Yes. Yes, I did. :)


--Harold Buck


"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson
 
In article <[email protected]>,
"Silver0l" <[email protected]> wrote:

> The fact that these races happen in Europe is irrelevant to the point.
> Wherever they occur, these large scale draft-legal road races just prove
> that drafting is not dangerous per se.


But it sure doesn't prove that draft-legal races are safe with a bunch
of runners who just bought bikes last month so they could do a triathlon
to see if they like it.

--Harold Buck


"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson
 
In article <[email protected]>,
"Silver0l" <[email protected]> wrote:

> "Harold Buck" <[email protected]> a écrit dans le message de news:
> [email protected]...
>
> > >
> > > I can understand some arguments against drafting, but a draft-legal race
> is
> > > much more exciting to watch than a time-trial!
> >
> >
> > For most people, "exciting" = "closer finishes," which is what
> > draft-legal tends to give you, at the expense of fairly weighting the
> > other parts of the race. It's almost like they take the score of a
> > basketball game with 10 seconds to go and they make it a one-point game
> > so that the trailing team can try to win with a buzzer beater. Exciting,
> > maybe, but sure as hell not fair.
>
> There is a logical fallacy here - a red herring.
> I was tackling the boring / exciting argument, and you argue about
> fairness...
> Try to put some rationnality in your arguments...


So, you want to just talk about "exciting vs. boring" without regard to
ANYTHING else that is important. Okay, well, let's give everyone a
shotgun and a machete for the run, a spear gun for the swim, and a
handlebar-mounted slingshot for the bike. That will make it exciting!

You can't talk about "excitement" in a vacuum without considering how
the decisions about that affect fairness, safety, or other important
factors.

--Harold Buck


"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson
 
"Harold Buck" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> "Silver0l" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> "Harold Buck" <[email protected]> a écrit dans le message de news:
>> [email protected]...
>>
>> > >
>> > > I can understand some arguments against drafting, but a draft-legal
>> > > race
>> is
>> > > much more exciting to watch than a time-trial!
>> >
>> >
>> > For most people, "exciting" = "closer finishes," which is what
>> > draft-legal tends to give you, at the expense of fairly weighting the
>> > other parts of the race. It's almost like they take the score of a
>> > basketball game with 10 seconds to go and they make it a one-point game
>> > so that the trailing team can try to win with a buzzer beater.
>> > Exciting,
>> > maybe, but sure as hell not fair.
>>
>> There is a logical fallacy here - a red herring.
>> I was tackling the boring / exciting argument, and you argue about
>> fairness...
>> Try to put some rationnality in your arguments...
>
>
> So, you want to just talk about "exciting vs. boring" without regard to
> ANYTHING else that is important. Okay, well, let's give everyone a
> shotgun and a machete for the run, a spear gun for the swim, and a
> handlebar-mounted slingshot for the bike. That will make it exciting!
>
> You can't talk about "excitement" in a vacuum without considering how
> the decisions about that affect fairness, safety, or other important
> factors.
>
> --Harold Buck
>
>
> "I used to rock and roll all night,
> and party every day.
> Then it was every other day. . . ."
> -Homer J. Simpson


Woah. For a minute there I thought I was reading one of Brian W's posts....
Wierd.
 
Harold Buck wrote:
> In article <d2n6e.959099$6l.521368@pd7tw2no>,
> Triathlete <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>Hey, did you pull one over on me for April Fools?
>>
>>Harold Buck wrote:
>>
>>>I just spotted this on the USAT website: effective June 1, all USAT
>>>age-group events will be draft-legal. They said something about wanting
>>>a larger pool of people with drafting experience to draw from for the US
>>>Olympic team. It will be interesting to see how this turns out; I think
>>>a lot of races will renounce their USAT affiliation.
>>>
>
>
> Yes. Yes, I did. :)


Thanks Harold. You riled me up enough to get me out of lurk mode. ;)
 
"John Hardt" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> Woah. For a minute there I thought I was reading one of Brian W's
> posts.... Wierd.
>

What the heck happened to him? Kinda strange for someone so full of **** &
vinegar to just drop off the map.
 
"Tom Henderson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "John Hardt" <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> Woah. For a minute there I thought I was reading one of Brian W's
>> posts.... Wierd.
>>
>
> What the heck happened to him? Kinda strange for someone so full of **** &
> vinegar to just drop off the map.

I don't know.

During 2000 - 2002ish he used to race in events not far from me here in Ohio
but he doesn't seem to appear in the race results anymore. He must have
either dropped the sport or moved to Siberia.

John
 
On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 22:39:47 GMT, pyschosyd
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>I don't know about you guys, but I honestly would prefer to think that
>what I achieved was based on the hours of hard training that I put in.
>I agree that drafting is a skill which requires practice. While non
>draft legal triathlon does require skill in each discipline in the long
>run(pun intended) the fittest athlete, on the day, wins.

If racing is just about "fitness", why don't yall just compete on a
windtrainer and treadmill? Maybe in a pool. Just run some tests and
the best scores win. You could use some formula to compensate for
weight. Simple. That;ll eliminate luck, tactics, most pacing,
weather, etc. Just test fitness.

JT

****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
 
pyschosyd <[email protected]> wrote:

>This is a tough issue. The people with road racing backgrounds will
>naturally favour the drafting because it makes more sense to them.

To the contrary, they'll probably be against it so they don't lose the
advantage of faster bike splits. It sucks to be the fastest cyclist
when you're towing a bunch of better runners to T2.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame
 
In article <[email protected]>,
pyschosyd <[email protected]> wrote:

> I don't know about you guys, but I honestly would prefer to think that
> what I achieved was based on the hours of hard training that I put in.
> I agree that drafting is a skill which requires practice. While non
> draft legal triathlon does require skill in each discipline in the long
> run(pun intended) the fittest athlete, on the day, wins.


I think it's extremely naiive to think that the fittest person always
wins. First of all, that discounts the roles of strategy, tactics,
pacing, equipment, conditions, and other factors.

But more than that, it assumes that the format of the race has no
bearing on the outcome. For example, the best indoor track runners
aren't always the best outdoor track runners. Lance Armstrong might be a
nobody if he were a velodrome racer. And people who can get away with
being weaker on the bike because they can draft in draft-legal races may
have more success in draftathlon than triathlon.

--Harold Buck


"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson
 
On Sat, 09 Apr 2005 07:05:43 -0500, Harold Buck
<[email protected]> wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
> "Silver0l" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> And the argument that it is a disadvantage for good swimmers doesn't hold.
>> One can argue that a good swimmer will have his advantage cancelled when the
>> biker pack will pass him, but conversely, one can argue that only good
>> swimmers will be able to catch the right pack.
>>
>
>So, the fact that bad swimmers and good swimmers can both potentially
>get screwed makes it fair? Didn't your momma ever tell you two wrongs
>don't make a right?
>
>I'm sorry, but I think if I can swim the course one minute faster than
>you can and our cycling and running skills and conditioning are exactly
>the same, I should beat you by one minute, not lose because you caught
>up to me--and got to rest while doing it--by riding in a peloton.
>
>Drafting is great--for road cycling races. Let's leave it there.
>
>--Harold Buck
>
>
>"I used to rock and roll all night,
> and party every day.
> Then it was every other day. . . ."
> -Homer J. Simpson

Does it not cross your mind that someone could just as easily loose
time following USAT rules about dropping back?
 
Radioactive Man wrote:
> Does it not cross your mind that someone could just as easily loose
> time following USAT rules about dropping back?

Just so I don't waste everyones time writing an explanation of why this
won't happen could you just spell out the circumstances where you could
lose a minute dropping back because of the USAT overtaking rules...

Could it be something to do with not being a strong enough cyclist to
actually overtake someone with whom you are keeping the same speed, or
is it becuase you are not a strong enough cyclist to re-overtake or
keep ahead of someone who is cycling faster than you?

I don't think that either of these are a good reason to legalise
drafting and I'm struggling to think of another. If you are over taken
by ten cyclists each of whom have to abide by the same rules in a race,
you don't have to drop back, you are just a cr@p cyclist and need to
train more... they will just pass you and you can cycle as fast as you
can anyway. In a big race where there are hundreds of cyclists in the
same stretch of road it is easy to stay out of someones draft zone
without having to drop back or lose any real time.

Drafting is just plain wrong in triathlon, get over it and get back to
improving as a cyclist! ... we now return you to your normal service...
 
On 31 May 2005 14:57:26 -0700, "trimark" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>
>Radioactive Man wrote:
>> Does it not cross your mind that someone could just as easily loose
>> time following USAT rules about dropping back?
>
>Just so I don't waste everyones time writing an explanation of why this
>won't happen could you just spell out the circumstances where you could
>lose a minute dropping back because of the USAT overtaking rules...
>
>Could it be something to do with not being a strong enough cyclist to
>actually overtake someone with whom you are keeping the same speed, or
>is it becuase you are not a strong enough cyclist to re-overtake or
>keep ahead of someone who is cycling faster than you?
>
>I don't think that either of these are a good reason to legalise
>drafting and I'm struggling to think of another. If you are over taken
>by ten cyclists each of whom have to abide by the same rules in a race,
>you don't have to drop back, you are just a cr@p cyclist and need to
>train more... they will just pass you and you can cycle as fast as you
>can anyway. In a big race where there are hundreds of cyclists in the
>same stretch of road it is easy to stay out of someones draft zone
>without having to drop back or lose any real time.
>
>Drafting is just plain wrong in triathlon, get over it and get back to
>improving as a cyclist! ... we now return you to your normal service...


No. It's nothing more than an arbitrary and unenforceable rule. The
bottom line is that in a draft-legal event (triathlon or duathlon),
you must earn your place in the pack -- nobody gets that position in
the lead pack handed to them. And chances are, if 10 cyclists pass me
at once, they are drafting.

USAT (and it's non-U.S. counterparts) is the only organization I know
that sanctions events that involve draft-prohibited cycling and a mass
start. When did you last see the TDF time trials run under a mass
start format?
 
In article <[email protected]>,
Radioactive Man <[email protected]> wrote:

> >Drafting is just plain wrong in triathlon, get over it and get back to
> >improving as a cyclist! ... we now return you to your normal service...
>
>
> No. It's nothing more than an arbitrary and unenforceable rule.

It is certainly enforceable, but I grant that they might need more race
marshalls than you typically see at races because there are so many
jackasses who enter a race with certain rules and then cheat. If people
had some self-respect and honor, they wouldn't need any race marshalls.

> The
> bottom line is that in a draft-legal event (triathlon or duathlon),
> you must earn your place in the pack -- nobody gets that position in
> the lead pack handed to them. And chances are, if 10 cyclists pass me
> at once, they are drafting.

And chances are that if you're first out of the water on the swim, you
won't hold that lead for long.

>
> USAT (and it's non-U.S. counterparts) is the only organization I know
> that sanctions events that involve draft-prohibited cycling and a mass
> start. When did you last see the TDF time trials run under a mass
> start format?

I think it was the year when they had to swim first and run after.

You will note that drafting is illegal in the time trial in the TDF, and
that they don't do a mass bike start in triathlon, but a mass swim start.


--Harold Buck


"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson
 
Harold Buck wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Radioactive Man <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>>Drafting is just plain wrong in triathlon, get over it and get back to
>>>improving as a cyclist! ... we now return you to your normal service...
>>
>>
>>No. It's nothing more than an arbitrary and unenforceable rule.
>
>
> It is certainly enforceable, but I grant that they might need more race
> marshalls than you typically see at races because there are so many
> jackasses who enter a race with certain rules and then cheat. If people
> had some self-respect and honor, they wouldn't need any race marshalls.
>
>
>>The
>>bottom line is that in a draft-legal event (triathlon or duathlon),
>>you must earn your place in the pack -- nobody gets that position in
>>the lead pack handed to them. And chances are, if 10 cyclists pass me
>>at once, they are drafting.
>
>
> And chances are that if you're first out of the water on the swim, you
> won't hold that lead for long.
>
>
>>USAT (and it's non-U.S. counterparts) is the only organization I know
>>that sanctions events that involve draft-prohibited cycling and a mass
>>start. When did you last see the TDF time trials run under a mass
>>start format?
>
>
> I think it was the year when they had to swim first and run after.


*LOL*


> You will note that drafting is illegal in the time trial in the TDF, and
> that they don't do a mass bike start in triathlon, but a mass swim start.

--Harold Buck
>
>
> "I used to rock and roll all night,
> and party every day.
> Then it was every other day. . . ."
> -Homer J. Simpson

I never figured why drafters seem unconcerned about blatantly cheating
in front their fellow competitors, do they think others don't care?
Surely any satisfaction of achieving a goal or PB etc would be a hollow
feeling, irrespective of if they finish in the front, middle or back of
the pack.

jh
 
JH wrote:
>
<snip>
> I never figured why drafters seem unconcerned about blatantly cheating
> in front their fellow competitors, do they think others don't care?
> Surely any satisfaction of achieving a goal or PB etc would be a hollow
> feeling, irrespective of if they finish in the front, middle or back of
> the pack.
>
> jh

Kind of like drug cheats. Cheating is cheating, and if you do it, your
priorities are wrong.

Tam
 
>>And chances are, if 10 cyclists pass me
>>at once, they are drafting.

See, thats the problem. I never said they past you "at once" you just
want to draft, and so you assert they were. Your point was that the
USAT drop back rules would cost you a minute. I don't see how.

Drafting argument on the basis of performance alone is a losing
argument. If you want to have drafting becuase you are not a strong
cyclist and it will give you a better chance, then just say so. If you
want drafting becuase it makes the bike leg more exciting for
competitors and spectators, and TV, then just say so. After all,
everyone likes to watch a good crash don't they ? Or do they just
replay all those TdF crashes so we can all learn from the mistakes
made?

As for earning my place in the pack, trust me, as a reasonable swimmer,
usually a top-20 transition time and I could sit in or on the back of a
pack more more easily than I can work hard on my own to make the same
time/distance in a non-drafting race. Anyone that has done any serious
pack work knows its easier to keep up than to get dropped and have to
fight back.

The bad news in my case is that with one leg 2-inches shorter, nothing
short of a motorised scooter would give me a chance on the run ;-)
 
Radioactive Man <[email protected]> wrote in news:3mhv91p92d4vevd0gfud90963obshbths2
@4ax.com:

> When did you last see the TDF time trials run under a mass
> start format?
>

When was the last time a TDF time trial started with a swim?
 
JH wrote:

snip
> I never figured why drafters seem unconcerned about blatantly cheating
> in front their fellow competitors, do they think others don't care?
> Surely any satisfaction of achieving a goal or PB etc would be a hollow
> feeling, irrespective of if they finish in the front, middle or back of
> the pack.
>
> jh

I can't figure that out either. I rode in one race where two sisters
took turns drafting each other. There was a cross wind, so they weren't
lined up right behind the other, but off to the side. Of course that's
still drafting. when I passed them, I told them that drafting was
prohibited. They just glared at me. these women weren't new to the
sport either. I guess that some people just don't think the rules apply
to them.

Neither woman placed, but they did make it difficult for people to pass
them, and set a bad example.

I've also been in races where I saw people drafting and told them to
stop, only to have them say, "What's drafting?" We were at the same
pre-race meeting where the race director spent a couple of minutes
talking about position fouls and drafting. I suppose those guys were
some of the people who talked all through the instructional meeting.

In a race last year, I passed a guy and he immediately jumped on. when
I looked back to see him tucked in about five inches behind my wheel he
said, "I hope you don't mind me using your draft." I politely told him
that I did mind because it was ILLEGAL. He said he didn't know and
immediately dropped back.

It seems to me that many people new to the sport aren't very well
informed about triathlon rules. Has anybody else noticed this?

later,
Bob
 
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