Legalized draft



Hey, did you pull one over on me for April Fools?

Harold Buck wrote:
> I just spotted this on the USAT website: effective June 1, all USAT
> age-group events will be draft-legal. They said something about wanting
> a larger pool of people with drafting experience to draw from for the US
> Olympic team. It will be interesting to see how this turns out; I think
> a lot of races will renounce their USAT affiliation.
>
> --Harold Buck
>
>
> "I used to rock and roll all night,
> and party every day.
> Then it was every other day. . . ."
> -Homer J. Simpson
 
"Harold Buck" <[email protected]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email protected]...

> >
> > I can understand some arguments against drafting, but a draft-legal race
is
> > much more exciting to watch than a time-trial!
>
>
> For most people, "exciting" = "closer finishes," which is what
> draft-legal tends to give you, at the expense of fairly weighting the
> other parts of the race. It's almost like they take the score of a
> basketball game with 10 seconds to go and they make it a one-point game
> so that the trailing team can try to win with a buzzer beater. Exciting,
> maybe, but sure as hell not fair.

There is a logical fallacy here - a red herring.
I was tackling the boring / exciting argument, and you argue about
fairness...
Try to put some rationnality in your arguments...

-- Olivier
 
"John Forrest Tomlinson" <[email protected]> a écrit dans le message
de news: [email protected]...
> On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 23:55:17 +0200, "Silver0l" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >I have made some bike races, and I observed the following facts:
> >- road races may have much more racers than triathlon (seen some races
with
> >4000 people!).
>
> Where have you seen a bike race with 4000 people? Do you mean a gran
> fondo, or a bike tour?
>
> >- drafting is allowed
> >- the average level of proficiency among road racers is much lower than
with
> >triathlete. Triathlons are usually done by well trained people (more
> >technique / financial investment / fitness is needed), as opposed to road
> >bike races, where every weekend warriors thinks he can participate (and
so
> >it is!).
>
> What kind of bike race is this? Perhaps you are talking about bike
> tours or something.

This is the race I did last week. 1300 people. All the above mentionned
facts were observed here.

http://www.asptt.com/10_actualites/actualites_CYCLO-la77.htm

Other races have 4000 people. It's not anecdotal.

You will have to read french to understand the above link, though, but even
if you don't, you may understand the distance, the number of participants,
the categories...

-- Olivier
 
John Hardt wrote:
> So, your anecdotal observations at a handful of bike races make all
of the
> above "fact"? I think not. Come up with statistics from reliable
> third-parties to support the above "facts" and maybe I'll engage in
this
> argument. I doubt you can do it.

Sadly I think we are probably straying into geographical and cultural
differences, while I don't support drafting in triathlon, Olivers
observations are certainly pretty true here in Europe.

I've cycled with Tri clubs in Florida, Austin, multiple in NY,
Australia, France and Germany and rarely do they get the size of packs
and size of group rides seen regularly cycle clubs in Europe. There are
a large number of big open cycle races here in Europe with thousands of
people, and yes I've done a few big US rides, including Lances Ride of
the Roses that are bigger... but these are strictly not races.

Unfortunatelky Olivers argument about draft legal triathlon falls apart
becuase generally at least for ITU Olympic distance events even the men
don't work well together and generally the womens races are an
embarrassment for cycling. The multiple lap format and the ability to
sit next to each other(rather than draft) allows them to do as little
work as needed and save themselves for the run. This indeed leads to
boring bike sections which a repetitive and have little excitement but
take up almost half the "race".

So, in Olivers mind draft legal triathlons may be more exciting, but
thats just down to his experience and opinion, no amount of fact can
change that.
 
Dan Empfield no less posited exactly this for the next US Olympic
triathlon team. Dans view was that in order to pay back the USOC
investment in tri and come back with something more than bronze that
the US develop a team which included domestiques.

In a private e-mail Dan said "I don't like domestiques. But when you
envisage a
four-person break, three of them are wearing your colors, it's hard to
imagine coming home with a bronze."
 
"trimark" <[email protected]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email protected]...
>
> John Hardt wrote:
> > So, your anecdotal observations at a handful of bike races make all
> of the
> > above "fact"? I think not. Come up with statistics from reliable
> > third-parties to support the above "facts" and maybe I'll engage in
> this
> > argument. I doubt you can do it.
>
> Sadly I think we are probably straying into geographical and cultural
> differences, while I don't support drafting in triathlon, Olivers
> observations are certainly pretty true here in Europe.

The fact that these races happen in Europe is irrelevant to the point.
Wherever they occur, these large scale draft-legal road races just prove
that drafting is not dangerous per se. Unless you want to consider that
north american triathletes have some natural psycho-motricity deficiency
when compared to European...

If we were serious about safety for untrained athletes, we would ban the
aerobar. Which BTW would be logical, once drafting is allowed.

-- Olivier
 
"Mark Hickey" <[email protected]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email protected]...
> "Silver0l" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >- the average level of proficiency among road racers is much lower than
with
> >triathlete.
>
> If that's not a troll, it's at least an opinion based on some very
> faulty generalizations (and obviously wrong of course). It would be
> ludicrous to expect a triathlete to be "more proficient" at swimming,
> running or cycling than someone who takes only one of those sports
> seriously and spends a similar amount of time practicing it.


Is it stupidity or only bad faith? Or a straw man?

Of course, I will not argue that well trained bikers go much faster and are
more proficient than we are. I train with roadies, too, and they always
leave me and my poor fellow triathletes in the dust, at the end of the day,
when things become serious.

Read again my sentence: it was about _average level of proficiency_ among
road racers, as I have seen them.

The fact is that biking is far more popular than triathlon (here in France:
100 000 people belong to the Bike League, whereas only 20 0000 belong to the
Triathlon League).

But the real difference is that it's much easier to do your first bike race
than your first triathlon.

Consider honestly the 2 following situations. Which one is the more likely
to happen:

Situation 1: "I have a nice bike, I go on the road every other sunny Sunday,
there will be a race in the neighbourhood next month, and I will try to
participate with a few friends"

or:

Situation 2: "I have a nice bike properly fitted with aerobars, I got a
wetsuit for Christmas, I 'm used to run, bike and/or swim every other
Sunday, and I will do my first triathlon next month with friends who are in
the same situation".


It's just that Situation 1 is much more likely to happen, and this is the
reason why you will have road races with thousands of poorly trained
drafting people every Sunday, while the vast majority of triathletes has a
reasonnable or good level of training, dedication and proficiency ...

BTW, I share the general view that there should be draft-legal and
draft-illegal triathlons. The problem is just that draft-legal races
triathlon are only for a very limited number of elite athletes, and I'm
therefore forbidden to do them...

-- Olivier
 
"Silver0l" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"Mark Hickey" <[email protected]> a écrit dans le message de news:
>[email protected]...
>> "Silver0l" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >- the average level of proficiency among road racers is much lower than
>with
>> >triathlete.
>>
>> If that's not a troll, it's at least an opinion based on some very
>> faulty generalizations (and obviously wrong of course). It would be
>> ludicrous to expect a triathlete to be "more proficient" at swimming,
>> running or cycling than someone who takes only one of those sports
>> seriously and spends a similar amount of time practicing it.
>
>Is it stupidity or only bad faith? Or a straw man?

The original statement? Hard to say. ;-)

When you say "racers" I strangely assumed you were talking about
people who race bicycles. Based on the turnout at the local road
races and triathlons, if anything there are a lot fewer road racers
than triathletes.

>Of course, I will not argue that well trained bikers go much faster and are
>more proficient than we are. I train with roadies, too, and they always
>leave me and my poor fellow triathletes in the dust, at the end of the day,
>when things become serious.

Which was obviously my point.

>Read again my sentence: it was about _average level of proficiency_ among
>road racers, as I have seen them.

It seems that France has some very poor roadies then. ;-)

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

>The fact is that biking is far more popular than triathlon (here in France:
>100 000 people belong to the Bike League, whereas only 20 0000 belong to the
>Triathlon League).
>
>But the real difference is that it's much easier to do your first bike race
>than your first triathlon.
>
>Consider honestly the 2 following situations. Which one is the more likely
>to happen:
>
>Situation 1: "I have a nice bike, I go on the road every other sunny Sunday,
>there will be a race in the neighbourhood next month, and I will try to
>participate with a few friends"
>
>or:
>
>Situation 2: "I have a nice bike properly fitted with aerobars, I got a
>wetsuit for Christmas, I 'm used to run, bike and/or swim every other
>Sunday, and I will do my first triathlon next month with friends who are in
>the same situation".
>
>
>It's just that Situation 1 is much more likely to happen, and this is the
>reason why you will have road races with thousands of poorly trained
>drafting people every Sunday, while the vast majority of triathletes has a
>reasonnable or good level of training, dedication and proficiency ...
>
>BTW, I share the general view that there should be draft-legal and
>draft-illegal triathlons. The problem is just that draft-legal races
>triathlon are only for a very limited number of elite athletes, and I'm
>therefore forbidden to do them...
>
>-- Olivier
>
 
Oh come now Olivier... you know that most people don't get into
triathlon via situation 2. How about Situation 3. I have a mountain
bike, I used to run, and with a bit of effort over the summer I can do
up to 400m in an indoor pool. In order to compete all I need is my
mountain bike, a helmet, swim costume, t-shirt and running shoes.

I would observe from racing and helping organise triathlons all over
the world that the later is FAR, FAR more likely to happen EVEN in
Europe that your situation 1. - heck in the US they don't even need the
t-shirts(don't get me started on that one!)

The problem with triathlon as your numbers prove is that is an
expensive and very time consuming sport to be GOOD at. The training
requirements alone drive most people away after 2-3 years let alone the
physical wear and tear.

As for banning tri-bars in draft legal races.... thats also another
detour my friend. So, having agreed that we would allow a pack of
mediocre swimmers work together to catch the good swimmer(s), you are
further going to penalise the good swimmer who may well be able to
sustain a breakaway for long enough on the bike becuase of your
notional views on safety of bars such as the profile jammers.

I have these on two of my three bikes. In a crash they are no more
likely to injur someone than the other parts of the handlebars... so
lets ban handlebars... racing without them would definately introduce a
fun element.
 
>>draft-legal races triathlon are only for a very limited
>> number of elite athletes, and I'm therefore forbidden
>> to do them...

Move to the UK then, there are an increasing number of draft legal
triathlons held here including team time trials every year at our
National Relay event. Teams of four race against each other over the
complete course, with the first three to finish counting for the team.
It is ideal pack racing...

They don't ban aerobars, and anyone can take part assuming they can get
the team together. The club I'm Chairman of, Tri-Force, put in eleven
teams last year. The dislike of drafting though meant none were
interested in participating in the drafting event. Less teams take part
in the drafting event than in any other category. If its so exicting
you wonder why...
 
trimark wrote:
> Oh come now Olivier... you know that most people don't get into
> triathlon via situation 2. How about Situation 3. I have a mountain
> bike, I used to run, and with a bit of effort over the summer I can do
> up to 400m in an indoor pool. In order to compete all I need is my
> mountain bike, a helmet, swim costume, t-shirt and running shoes.
>
> I would observe from racing and helping organise triathlons all over
> the world that the later is FAR, FAR more likely to happen EVEN in
> Europe that your situation 1. - heck in the US they don't even need the
> t-shirts(don't get me started on that one!)
>
> The problem with triathlon as your numbers prove is that is an
> expensive and very time consuming sport to be GOOD at. The training
> requirements alone drive most people away after 2-3 years let alone the
> physical wear and tear.
>
Well, here is my two-cents worth.

I've been in both road races and triathlons. One reason I quit road
racing was because it wasn't good for me. I crashed in my last road
race because someone in front of me went down, probably because he
overlapped his front wheel with the guy's rear wheel in front of him. I
ended up with a broken collarbone. Wasn't it John Howard who said,
"there are two types of bike racers; those that have crashed and those
that are going to crash."

Before I did my first road race, I did lots of group rides in pace
lines. the people I biked with insisted on it. It's been my experience
that this is common practice (or at least was 20 years ago when I did my
road races). I've also known lots of triathletes who have not spent any
time practicing bike handling skills. So, my conclusion is that road
racers are far more experienced on the bike than triathletes.

> As for banning tri-bars in draft legal races.... thats also another
> detour my friend. So, having agreed that we would allow a pack of
> mediocre swimmers work together to catch the good swimmer(s), you are
> further going to penalise the good swimmer who may well be able to
> sustain a breakaway for long enough on the bike becuase of your
> notional views on safety of bars such as the profile jammers.
>
> I have these on two of my three bikes. In a crash they are no more
> likely to injur someone than the other parts of the handlebars... so
> lets ban handlebars... racing without them would definately introduce a
> fun element.
>
It's not that tri-bars are more dangerous when you crash; it's that
using them in a group is dangerous.

Clearly this debate is never going to be resolved. I don't care if
someone wants to put on a draft legal triathlon as long as there are
other non-draft legal triathlons for me to participate in (can you tell
that the bike is my strongest leg :) ).

I guess that I don't worry anymore about USAT going draft legal for
amateurs. If they do, another triathlon organization will form for
those of us who don't want drafting in the bike in triathlon.

thanks for letting me rant :)

Bob
 
"Mark Hickey" <[email protected]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email protected]...
>
> When you say "racers" I strangely assumed you were talking about
> people who race bicycles. Based on the turnout at the local road
> races and triathlons, if anything there are a lot fewer road racers
> than triathletes.

Just the opposite here. Road races are much more popular. I guess we are not
in the country of Tour de France for nothing... (which doen't imply that I
consider french triathletes are not at the level of their US counterparts!).

I've said what I had to say. End of thread for me - don't want to spend too
much time on Usenet. I've got a life. And some running to do. And swimming.
And biking (will beat those damn roadies!). And a job. And a wife. And 3
children... well, you all know the problem.

-- Olivier
 
There were other, even lamer April Fool's jokes posted, however, this one
was a joke for sure.

Ray


"Mark" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I thought that as well, however, I thought that would have to be the lamest
>April Fool's joke ever. Plus it was posted after the "12 deadline". At
>least from where I sit it was.
> M~
>
> "Steve Anderson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> What's the date today again?
>>
>> Mark wrote:
>>
>>> It says this where?
>>>
>>> "Harold Buck" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>> > I just spotted this on the USAT website: effective June 1, all USAT
>>> > age-group events will be draft-legal. They said something about
>>> > wanting a larger pool of people with drafting experience to draw
>>> > from for the US Olympic team. It will be interesting to see how
>>> > this turns out; I think a lot of races will renounce their USAT
>>> > affiliation.
>>> >
>>> > --Harold Buck
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > "I used to rock and roll all night,
>>> > and party every day.
>>> > Then it was every other day. . . ."
>>> > -Homer J. Simpson
>>
>
>
 
"Silver0l" <[email protected]> wrote in news:425a14be$0$22124
[email protected]:

> There is a logical fallacy here - a red herring.
> I was tackling the boring / exciting argument, and you argue about
> fairness...
> Try to put some rationnality in your arguments...
>
> -- Olivier
>

In other words, you can't beat him on the new point he just made? I think I
can see why you prefer a format that diminishes competition in multiple
disciplines. :)
 
Harold Buck <[email protected]> wrote in news:no_one_knows-
[email protected]:

> At the expense of huge bike pileups because you have idiots drafting
> without any clue? I don't think so.
>
>
> --Harold Buck
>

Dang Harold! I'd jump in and have your back, but you seem to have
everything under control!
 
"Silver0l" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> - the average level of proficiency among road racers is much lower
> than with triathlete. Triathlons are usually done by well trained
> people (more technique / financial investment / fitness is needed), as
> opposed to road bike races, where every weekend warriors thinks he can
> participate (and so it is!).
>

Balderdash! Do you really mean to say that the average cycling skill level
is higher at a draft legal road race than it is at your local sprint tri?
20-30% of the folks on the road in a sprint race are runners who are still
learning to swim and ride a strainght line. The 12-18 miles they are riding
are the longest rides they ever been on.
 
"Silver0l" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> I've said what I had to say. End of thread for me - don't want to
> spend too much time on Usenet. I've got a life. And some running to
> do. And swimming. And biking (will beat those damn roadies!). And a
> job. And a wife. And 3 children... well, you all know the problem.
>
> -- Olivier
>
>
>

Hey, we've enjoyed the banter. Thanks for helping keep this forum alive.
 
Tom Henderson <[email protected]> wrote:

>"Silver0l" <[email protected]> wrote in
>news:[email protected]:
>
>> - the average level of proficiency among road racers is much lower
>> than with triathlete. Triathlons are usually done by well trained
>> people (more technique / financial investment / fitness is needed), as
>> opposed to road bike races, where every weekend warriors thinks he can
>> participate (and so it is!).
>
>Balderdash! Do you really mean to say that the average cycling skill level
>is higher at a draft legal road race than it is at your local sprint tri?
>20-30% of the folks on the road in a sprint race are runners who are still
>learning to swim and ride a strainght line. The 12-18 miles they are riding
>are the longest rides they ever been on.

I'm confused... am I misreading the above or do you switch positions
in the middle? Did you mean to type "lower"?

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame
 
Mark Hickey <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> I'm confused... am I misreading the above or do you switch positions
> in the middle? Did you mean to type "lower"?
>

It wasn't worded well. The original poster said that the average cycling
skill level was higher at a triathlon than at a road race, and I was trying
to say that in my experience, the opposite is true, particularly at the
sprint level, where a significant portion of the feild is new to cycling.
 
Tom Henderson <[email protected]> wrote:

>Harold Buck <[email protected]> wrote in news:no_one_knows-
>[email protected]:
>
>> At the expense of huge bike pileups because you have idiots drafting
>> without any clue? I don't think so.
>>
>>
>> --Harold Buck
>>
>
>Dang Harold! I'd jump in and have your back, but you seem to have
>everything under control!


Yeah, ain't that aggravating? He makes all the good points and all
we're left with is lame "Me, too's."

Mike Tennent
"IronPenguin"
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

P
Bike for Olympic Distance Draft Legal Racing
Replies
0
Views
699
Triathlon
[email protected]
P
W
Chicago rough draft/report
Replies
4
Views
568
Triathlon
Wendy Edwards
W
M
Message To America's Students: The War, The Draft, Your Future
Replies
5
Views
610
Triathlon
Buddy Guy
B
S
Message To America's Students: The War, The Draft, Your Future
Replies
0
Views
579
Triathlon
Simon Bishop
S
L
Where to find draft-legal events?
Replies
23
Views
2K
Triathlon
Tom Henderson
T
Top Bottom Back