Cycling Equipment · Public discussion

LED headlights?

Started by David L. Johnso · · Last activity · 127 posts · 16,366 views

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Cycling Equipment
Published
11 January 2004
Last activity
21 January 2004
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David L. Johnso
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  1. Mark Atanovich said:

    If you're looking for something to last longer buy or, better yet, build yourself a larger
    battery. It will be some time, if ever, that LED technology improves to the point of being a
    serious alternative to the your high power (>10W) light.

    I'm not so much looking for a replacement, as a back-up, for my NightRider. Any ride over 2 hours in
    the dark, or, more likely, when I forget that my battery is on the kitchen counter being charged,
    I'd rather have some light than none. My experience with typical bulb-type lights (Cateye, etc.) is
    that they are not worth bothering with. I was hoping for something a bit more usable, though not one
    that could out-shine my NR.

    --

    David L. Johnson

    __o | We have a record of conquest, colonization and expansion _`\(,_ | unequaled by any people
    in the Nineteenth Century. We are not to (_)/ (_) | be curbed now. --Henry Cabot Lodge, 1895

  2. Hello I have a question about the following statement: "Many people also had *no* clue about how to
    mount and aim a headlight, putting it above the bars and pointing it at the ground right in front of
    the wheel"

    It seems you would out-ride your headlight at a very slow speed. I don't hammer on my early morning
    commutes, but I need to see at least 5 feet in front of me to be able to dodge road debris. It seems
    like pointing the light in front of the front wheel would allow you to see what you are running
    over, not avoid it. How do the rest of you aim your lights? Jim

    "Tim McNamara" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    David L. Johnson said:

    I've been curious, from following a couple of sort-of related threads. One guy pointed to a site
    that had a 1W single LED light (for $35 or so). Now, 1 watt does not seem like much. At the
    moment I use a 15W Nightrider, but am interested in something that would last longer and still
    have enough light.

    Are there LED lights that really do the job?

    I don't have direct experience with riding with LED headlights. I use a Schmidt generator hub and
    a Lumotec Oval lamp and find that perfectly adequate for riding all night long.

    At PBP this year I saw many people using LED lights, most of which cast a very bright and very
    narrow beam. Many people also had *no* clue about how to mount and aim a headlight, putting it
    above the bars and pointing it at the ground right in front of the wheel. The light appeared
    adequate in brightness but too narrow in focus for my tastes.

    A to B Magazine did some comparison tests with night photos comparing beam patterns; you can
    check their Web site although I don't think the article itself is posted. You could get it as a
    back issue.

    atob.org.ukatob.org.uk

    There's another Web site with night photos that you can compare lights.

    fa-technik.adfc.devergleich.htm

    Peter White's Web site also has some comparisons between lights.

    peterwhitecycles.comlightingsystems.htm

  3. Quoth Jim Edwards:

    Quoted message said:

    I have a question about the following statement: "Many people also had *no* clue about how to
    mount and aim a headlight, putting it above the bars and pointing it at the ground right in front
    of the wheel"

    It seems you would out-ride your headlight at a very slow speed. I don't hammer on my early
    morning commutes, but I need to see at least 5 feet in front of me to be able to dodge road
    debris. It seems like pointing the light in front of the front wheel would allow you to see what
    you are running over, not avoid it. How do the rest of you aim your lights?

    If your primary purpose is making yourself visible to other road users, a high position like this is
    probably good, but the light should be aimed pretty much level, so it will shin into the eyes of
    other vehicle drivers. (Assuming it isn't such a bright light that dazzling would be an issue.)

    However, for evaluating road surface conditions, debris and the like, it's better for the light to
    be mounted low, say halfway up the fork blade as was formerly common on British bikes.

    The lower position causes the bright spot to cover a greater length of roadway. In addition, it
    causes road irregularities/debris to cast more prominent shadows.

    You can see my current favorite setups at:

    sheldonbrown.org02 front qtr.html

    and: sheldonbrown.orggunnar 12 03 6.html

    Sheldon "Shadows" Brown +----------------------------------------------------------------+
    | The thing about the cold is that you can never tell how cold | it is from looking out a kitchen
    | window. You have to dress | up, get out training and when you come back, you then know | how cold
    | it is. -Sean Kelly |
    +----------------------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton,
    Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 harriscyclery.comharriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts
    shipped Worldwide captainbike.comcaptainbike.com sheldonbrown.comsheldonbrown.com

  4. Sheldon Brown said:

    However, for evaluating road surface conditions, debris and the like, it's better for the light to
    be mounted low, say halfway up the fork blade as was formerly common on British bikes.

    The lower position causes the bright spot to cover a greater length of roadway. In addition, it
    causes road irregularities/debris to cast more prominent shadows.

    A high mounting works better in that you can see the debris anyway. Covering a greater length just
    means that you have the wrong beamshape in the first place.

    The reason you want to shine downwards is to distinguish wet spots from potholes. Both are black to
    a low angle, but a high angle lights up the interior of a pothole.

    I myself have the wrong beamshape and use two Cateye Hl-1500's, one aimed ahead of the other, the
    forward one being just high enough to illuminate stop signs. You have to know they're there even
    if you don't stop for stop signs, because the other guy has the right of way, and you need to
    know that.
    --
    Ron Hardin [email hidden]

    On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.

  5. On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 18:42:33 GMT, "rosco"

    reverse-the-following'ocsor_g'@hotmail.com may have said:

    ... I have one of these Planet Bike units on order, and plan to modify it using the 3W Luxeon Star
    if possible ($13 from www.elekrolumens.com). If it works out, I'll post my findings.

    ITYM www.elektrolumens.com (missed a "t"😉.

    They presently seem to be saying that all of the hobbyist LED units are out of stock; I wonder if
    that's an indication of anything in particular.

    --
    My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
    Yes, I have a killfile. If I don't respond to something,
    it's also possible that I'm busy.
    Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

  6. On 10 Jan 2004 15:39:20 -0800, [email hidden] (B.C. Cletta) may

    have said:

    (if ya don't know) heat is the killer. here is Willie Hunt's solution for the 5-W Luxeon Star (i
    hope it goes under the HBs): <http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~willie/DSCN4177.JPG>

    Aw, heck, no! Straight up, mounted on an all-black bike, we'd have less than 24 hours after it hit
    the road before the news wires would be alive with reports of a mysterious secret government
    bicyclist with his mind-control device antenna...

    --
    My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
    Yes, I have a killfile. If I don't respond to something,
    it's also possible that I'm busy.
    Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

  7. (Andrew Webster) said:

    Also fine away from other lights in open country (once your eyes become dark-adjusted you really
    don't need that much light to see by, a full moon gives quite enough - bright lights just throw
    what is beyond their range into total blackness by contrast - of course, light polluted areas or
    dark woods are a different matter).

    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    A final point. Power is relevant to run-time, but not directly to brightness (particularly between
    different technologies such as filaments and LEDs). Light output can be equally misleading as how
    tightly the beam is focussed will have a dramatic impact on what you can see. You really have to
    try a light in your particular sutuation to see if a light is suitable, there isn't a "one size
    fits all" solution in the compromise between run-time, light output and beam dimension.

    I'll second this. I find that overly bright lights make it paradoxically more difficult to see
    at night, especially if very tightly focused. I think it interferes with dark adaptation, as
    Andrew mentions.

    A less bright lamp with a wider beam is fine to see by (for me). I've ridden literally all night on
    several occasions with a 3 watt rated lamp (Lumotec Oval). I've been comfortable with this setup
    going 30 mph down hills.

    There are probably other factors, though. Some people don't see as well in dim light as others do,
    for example. Ambient light can have an effect- lots of street lights or oncoming traffic reduce
    one's ability to adapt to dim light.

  8. Jim Edwards said:

    "Tim McNamara" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    At PBP this year I saw many people using LED lights, most of which cast a very bright and very
    narrow beam. Many people also had *no* clue about how to mount and aim a headlight, putting it
    above the bars and pointing it at the ground right in front of the wheel. The light appeared
    adequate in brightness but too narrow in focus for my tastes.

    I have a question about the following statement: "Many people also had *no* clue about how to
    mount and aim a headlight, putting it above the bars and pointing it at the ground right in front
    of the wheel"

    It seems you would out-ride your headlight at a very slow speed. I don't hammer on my early
    morning commutes, but I need to see at least 5 feet in front of me to be able to dodge road
    debris. It seems like pointing the light in front of the front wheel would allow you to see what
    you are running over, not avoid it. How do the rest of you aim your lights?

    OK, let's start with a brief discussion of perception. Why are we lighting up the road? To make it
    possible to obtain information. What information do we need? We need to be able to see the edges of
    the road, the texture of the road surface, objects on the road surface, and objects that might
    project into the space above the road from the side. We also need to be able to see our own
    movement. As diurnal organisms, humans are visually oriented to the horizon and the position of the
    sun, and as we move we see a sort of "optical flow" coming at us from a point on the horizon and
    receding behind us to a point on the opposite horizon- visual texture that diverges as we approach
    and converges as we recede from any point in the environment (see James J. Gibson, _The Senses
    Considered as Perceptual Systems_ and _The Ecological Approach to Visual Perception_).

    A light mounted high, such as above the handlebars, has to be pointed downwardly at a more acute
    angle in order to illuminate the road in front of the wheel. The road is lit brightly, with a "pool"
    of light extending from a foot or two in front of the wheel to maybe 15 to 20 ahead. There is not
    much illumination of the road ahead, therefore, including road signs, lane stripes, and objects that
    might project into the space above the road. We also don't get much sense of movement because we
    cannot properly see the divergence of visual texture ahead of us (and hence we tend to overestimate
    our speed when riding at night).

    The lower the light is, the longer the illuminated "pool" because the beam is more horizontal and
    closer to the road surface. The pool of light can still start a foot or so in front of the wheel and
    extend maybe 50 feet. You can see the texture of the road better because this type of lighting
    creates shadows better and there is less bright "scatter" coming back at you which permits better
    dark adaptation (this is why fog lights are mounted low, usually below the front bumper). This gives
    you a more accurate sense of your speed.

    My headlight is mounted moderately low, just in front of the fork crown. The (old?) British standard
    is to mount the headlight on one of the fork blades, an even lower placement. The French tended to
    mount the light at the front of the front fender or on one side of the front rack, lower than my
    placement and higher than the British. I have seen pictures of the light being mounted at or below
    the fork end. There's a tradeoff with such mounting- the wheel throws a shadow to one side, and one
    will tend to be turning into the dark when turning to the side away from the light. My headlight
    location casts a shadow directly in front of the bike.

    I would also recommend staying away from the clear or translucent lights, which Cateye in
    particular sells. The idea is to provide a 360 degree immumination so cars and such can see you-
    but this of course will shine in your eyes and prevent good dark adaptation. All the light should
    go forward; you should wear reflective clothing and use a taillight to provide visibility from the
    side and rear.

    Head mounted or helmet mounted lights are an interesting case, tending to produce a "flat" visual
    field with inadequate depth cues and a lack of shadows and texture. On the other hand, wherever you
    are looking is illuminated, which is not the case with a fixed-mount light on the bike. I have a
    helmet mounted light and don't care for it very much because of the drawbacks, but if I was doing an
    off-road night ride I'd want both a fixed light and a helmet-mounted one. I have also found it
    helpful in attracting the attention of drivers.

  9. "David L. Johnson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Mark Atanovich said:

    If you're looking for something to last longer buy or, better yet, build yourself a larger
    battery. It will be some time, if ever, that LED technology improves to the point of being a
    serious alternative to the


    your

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    high power (>10W) light.

    I'm not so much looking for a replacement, as a back-up, for my NightRider. Any ride over 2 hours
    in the dark, or, more likely, when I forget that my battery is on the kitchen counter being
    charged, I'd rather have some light than none.

    This is exactly how I am using my LED Cateye. Back-up and supplement to my Nightrider. They claim
    170 hours of run time -- I dk if that's true, but I do know that I've used it all fall and winter,
    and I haven't had to change the batteries yet. Compared to three hours run time on my old Road Toad,
    that's impressive.

    --
    Warm Regards,

    Claire Petersky
    Please replace earthlink for mouse-potato and .net for .com

    Home of the meditative cyclist:
    home.earthlink.netWelcome.htm

    Books just wanna be FREE! See what I mean at:
    bookcrossing.comCpetersky
    My bookshelf: bookcrossing.comCpetersky

    "To forgive is to set the prisoner free and then discover the prisoner
    was you."

  10. Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    David L. Johnson wrote:


    -snip-

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Are there LED lights that really do the job? How many watts would it


    take?

    Quoted message said:

    "Zog The Undeniable" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    The Cateye EL-300 passes British Standards for front lights and is wildly popular over here.
    Personally I don't think it throws a real beam, so I'll stick with my dynamo for now.

    Bruce Lange said:

    I would say that for routes you are familiar with, the


    EL300 is fine, -snip-

    Quoted message said:

    I'm waiting for is a good LED light designed to work with dynamos. That would be cool.

    I was intrigued.

    So I clipped a Cateye EL-300 light to my handlebar and ran a couple of wires from my dynamo through
    a diode bridge to it.

    Amazing! It's very bright. Brighter than with batteries. The dynamo-powered EL-300 works fine in
    both constant and flashing modes.

    tinyurl.comytd5o

    Some things I discovered: -I could not get a crisp photo while spinning the wheel.

    -The light is apparently flashing faster than I can perceive because only one out of nine photos
    showed the LEDs lit

    -If you try it, note the switch on this model is wired into the light's circuit board. Most
    handlebar lamps are switched at the back, breaking the circuit between batteries. I actually
    gave up, ripped it all apart and quit but then noticed the switch wires and tried again with it
    _on_. D'oh!

    --
    Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971

  11. "Mark Atanovich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:d7eMb.43692$i55.16142@fed1read06...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    Halogens are about 70 lumens/Watt. As the junction temperature of the


    diode

    Quoted message said:

    increases things get worse in a hurry. Reliability at high


    output/junction

    Quoted message said:

    temperatures is also going to be a big issue.

    Where do see data showing halogens at 70 lumens/watt? I thought that was the range florescent bulbs
    worked in, not halogens. I've been led to believe LEDs and halogens are about the same in
    lumens/watt with some LEDs being slightly better (at today's technology level).

    Just curious - has anyone ever made a 12VDC florescent bike light? Are they more fragile? Certainly
    ones I've seen for home use aren't exactly small and light.

  12. "Jim Edwards" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    I don't hammer on my early morning commutes, but I need to see at least 5 feet in front of me to
    be able to dodge road debris. It seems like pointing the light in front of the front wheel would
    allow you to see what you are running over, not avoid it. How do the rest of you aim your lights?

    There are a couple good diagrams explaining headlight aiming at
    bikexprt.comchapter8a.htm

    Some of my most avid night-riding friends ride in areas where street lights are ample to show the
    road, so they need lights only to be visible to cars. These folks use low-powered battery lights,
    but aim them at the drivers' eyes, as John Allen's booklet shows. In that situation, I think
    mounting on the handlebar is probably best, assuming you don't have a handlebar bag that would block
    the light.

    My night riding is very mixed, ranging from pitch black to bright streetlights. Also, I like
    handlebar bags, so handlebar mounts often don't work for me.

    I used to mount my generator headlights at the side of the fork, and I liked the shadow relief which
    showed up bumps and holes well. But I didn't like the fact that the front of my wheel cast a shadow
    to the front-side.

    Eventually, I made a bracket to hold my headlight just in front of my fender. For the generator
    light, this is my favorite. Nice relief lighting, no shadows, and room for two lamps, if you want to
    do the two-headlights-from-one-generator trick.

    For my rechargeable lights (which I almost never use any more), my favorite position is above the
    handlebar. Both of mine (the Vistalight 4xx and my own homebuilt) extend upward a few inches, so
    they clear my handlebar bag. One nice advantage of these two lights is that they can be manually
    pivoted side-to-side. If taking a sharp turn at fairly high speed, I can turn the headlight for
    better illumination of the turn. OTOH, it's a rare thing for me to turn fast & sharp at night.

    - Frank Krygowski

  13. "Claire Petersky" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:whmMb.27876$na.21601@attbi_s04...

    Quoted message said:

    This is exactly how I am using my LED Cateye. Back-up and supplement to my Nightrider. They claim
    170 hours of run time -- I dk if that's true, but I do know that I've used it all fall and winter,
    and I haven't had to change the batteries yet. Compared to three hours run time on my old Road
    Toad, that's impressive.

    I think that a.2 C cell MagLite with a Twofish Cyclopblock would also be suitable back-up to
    Niterider, NiteSun, etc..

    nashbar.comprofile.cfm 4

    The fact that it has an adjustable flood/spot lens makes it suitable for different situations, and
    it's a single bulb focused into a very good lens it has a more usable beam for seeing the road. The
    problem with the LED lights is that they require multiple LEDs to achieve sufficient brightness, and
    it is difficult to combine these into a usable beam for seeing the road (though for being seen the
    LED lights are okay with a proper lens.

  14. Zog The Undeniable <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Chalo said:

    There are other advantages to LED illumination, though. Light color and beam quality are usually
    superior to incandescents

    Is that "superior" as in "looks a bit like a Mercedes with xenon headlamps"? ;-)

    There are some flashlight geeks who pony up $600 to $4500 each for handheld lights of that kind
    (HID). candlepowerforums.compostlist.php I find that
    mystifying, but no more so than folks paying thousands to add that option to their cars.

    Anyway, that's "superior" as in "not yellow like a glowing metal wire" or "containing some green,
    blue, and violet light along with the rest of the visible spectrum". Call me frivolous, but I think
    white light is better than colored light for illumination. (To determine what color a light source
    is, look at it in full sunshine.)

    LED light beams are usually smooth, without rings or holes like a typical hot-wire light.

    Chalo Colina

  15. Very cool Andrew!

  16. Steven M. Scharf said:

    The problem with the LED lights is that they require multiple LEDs to achieve sufficient
    brightness, and it is difficult to combine these into a usable beam for seeing the road (though for
    being seen the LED lights are okay with a proper lens.

    Problems like this though are rapidly being solved as LEDs find their way into all aspects of the
    lighting biz. It wouldn't surprise me to see within 6 months a multi lamp (lamp=bulb) fixture for
    bikes with a focusable beam that throws a beam sufficient to see the road in. They exist as flash
    lights (expensive) and a new, better one seems to come out every few months now.

    Another problem I have is the cold (typically in the 6000 K range) colour temperature of LEDs does
    not to my eye provide the same definition of objects at night as a warmer incandescent source does.
    Even this is changing though as they work on LED fixtures to replace traditional theatre luminaires.

    jeffb

  17. David L. Johnson said:

    I've been curious, from following a couple of sort-of related threads. One guy pointed to a site
    that had a 1W single LED light (for $35 or so). Now, 1 watt does not seem like much. At the moment
    I use a 15W Nightrider, but am interested in something that would last longer and still have
    enough light.

    Are there LED lights that really do the job? How many watts would it take?

    From my (MTB) experience, LED headlights enable one to "be seen by others" rather than one "being
    able to see" the road. I installed a Cateye EL-300 and I was not able to "see" the trail, though I
    was visible to others.

    -Zilla

  18. "Sheldon Brown" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    +----------------------------------------------------------------+
    | The thing about the cold is that you can never tell how cold | it is from looking out a kitchen
    | window. You have to dress | up, get out training and when you come back, you then know | how
    | cold it is. -Sean Kelly |
    +----------------------------------------------------------------+

    Ah, life before Intellicast, I barely remember it.

  19. jeffbonny <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Steven M. Scharf said:

    The problem with the LED lights is that they require multiple LEDs to achieve sufficient
    brightness, and it is difficult to combine these into a usable beam for seeing the road (though
    for being seen the LED lights are okay with a proper lens.

    Problems like this though are rapidly being solved as LEDs find their way into all aspects of the
    lighting biz. It wouldn't surprise me to see within 6 months a multi lamp (lamp=bulb) fixture for
    bikes with a focusable beam that throws a beam sufficient to see the road in. They exist as flash
    lights (expensive) and a new, better one seems to come out every few months now.

    Another problem I have is the cold (typically in the 6000 K range) colour temperature of LEDs does
    not to my eye provide the same definition of objects at night as a warmer incandescent source
    does. Even this is changing though as they work on LED fixtures to replace traditional theatre
    luminaires.

    jeffb


    I need to know the DC power plug/jack size that the Night Rider uses. I like to put that size jack
    on my 30 LED bicycle light. Radio Shack's most popular size is: Size M Coaxial 5.5mm O.D. X 2.1mm
    I.D. I presently uses 6.3mm X 3.0mm to match my notebook computer supply. // Bill Cotton: Latitude
    N40° 03.756' W75° 06.192' / / Phone 215 663-8363 Data 215 663-8364 // [email hidden]
    [email hidden] // [email hidden] [email hidden] // www.billcotton.com

  20. "jeffbonny" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Steven M. Scharf said:

    The problem with the LED lights is that they require multiple LEDs to achieve sufficient


    brightness,

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    and it is difficult to combine these into a usable beam for seeing the


    road

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    (though for being seen the LED lights are okay with a proper lens.

    Problems like this though are rapidly being solved as LEDs find their way into all aspects of the
    lighting biz. It wouldn't surprise me to see within 6 months a multi lamp (lamp=bulb) fixture for
    bikes with a focusable beam that throws a beam sufficient to see the road in. They exist as flash
    lights (expensive) and a new, better one seems to come out every few months now.

    I've seen the MagLite retrofit kits with Luxeon high wattage LEDs, $25 for the 2AA retrofit kit,
    inretech.netinretech.net

    Since it's just a back-up, not sure I'd bother.I've never had to use a back-up for my battery
    powered lights, but in case of emergency I guess it's a good idea. For failures other than an
    exhausted battery, I'd be more concerned about a back-up for dynamo lights, which are usually single
    bulb, and the bulbs don't last as long.

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