Landis impressive today, but...

[Patricio Carlos]

ST wrote:
> What type of steroids did they take??
> Anabolic or Androgenic??
The AVN link is with corticosteroids. Many pro athletes use these both
for their performance enhancing benefits and for anti-inflammatory
properties following injuries/inflammation. Sometimes they are injected
directly into sore muscles. Sometimes just taken orally.

For an interesting read, Google Gaumont's comments on corticosteroids.
He talks about how riders would make their scrotum red through rubbing,
tell the doctor they needed a topical steroid cream but that it had to
be diprosone. Then you'd get a therapeutic use exemption for it so
could inject diprostene without worrying. Alternatively you'd claim you
had an allergy to mites and needed nasacort spray which would allow you
to use cortisone.

 

[Patricio Carlos]

Tom Kunich wrote:
> Are you building a case to be able to recite after Landis wins the Tour? I
> can see it now, "Of course he won - he was doping and our Spanish heros
> weren't."

It is interesting that you raise the nationalistic argument. I am sure
if Gonchar had announced the need for a THJR for AVN, and that I had
put forward the same concerns, that you would not be so outraged. Of
course Floyd could not be doping, no! He is an English-speaking, nice
guy. They never dope! Just ask Tyler.

Furthermore, I am not Spanish. I am not supporting any particular
rider, just hoping for a good, clean race.

And you don't think we can all be at least a little bit suspicious of
the GC guys in general following the recent Puerto stuff? Particularly
when a rider comes from a team as clearly dodgey as Phonak. How many
riders do they need busted before the UCI actually takes away their
ProTour licence as they have threatened?

 

[Donald Munro]

Patricio Carlos wrote:
> For an interesting read, Google Gaumont's comments on corticosteroids.
> He talks about how riders would make their scrotum red through rubbing

Another job for heather if she gets tired of her job of inspecting for
scrotal patches. Admittedly not very pleasant but somebodies got to do it.

 

[yyy]

http://s9.bitefight.pl/c.php?uid=86180

 

[Stu Fleming]

Patricio Carlos wrote:

> For an interesting read, Google Gaumont's comments on corticosteroids.
> He talks about how riders would make their scrotum red through rubbing,
> tell the doctor they needed a topical steroid cream but that it had to

Actually, the testosterone patches probably handle the rubbing part
pretty well.

 

[Tom Kunich]

"Howard Kveck" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
>> "Fairey Munro" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>
> Ahh, the Klassic Kunich style: if someone disagrees with you they are
> surely a
> homosexual.

If the shoe fits. You're another of those guys with wings.

 

[Tom Kunich]

"Patricio Carlos" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Tom Kunich wrote:
>> Are you building a case to be able to recite after Landis wins the Tour?
>> I
>> can see it now, "Of course he won - he was doping and our Spanish heros
>> weren't."
>
> It is interesting that you raise the nationalistic argument. I am sure
> if Gonchar had announced the need for a THJR for AVN, and that I had
> put forward the same concerns, that you would not be so outraged.

And yet if you bothered to follow the messages around here you'd have known
that in fact I would have been outraged for ANYONE. I'm getting rather tired
of the lynch mob sentiments here.

> Furthermore, I am not Spanish. I am not supporting any particular
> rider, just hoping for a good, clean race.

Does your hope include making false accusations on the grounds of a tiny
possibility?

> And you don't think we can all be at least a little bit suspicious of
> the GC guys in general following the recent Puerto stuff? Particularly
> when a rider comes from a team as clearly dodgey as Phonak. How many
> riders do they need busted before the UCI actually takes away their
> ProTour licence as they have threatened?

So you're saying that Landis was cited in the Puerto case? If not perhaps
what you're saying is that this was only one of many such operations? Are
you turning Laff@me on us? Up to this point you've been generally a voice of
reason. What's driven you to distraction I can't say but accusing someone of
cheating on the grounds that he's doing good in a race is surely
Brian-esque.

 

[Tom Kunich]

"Geraard Spergen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Mark wrote:
>
>> Geraard Spergen wrote:
>>>
>>> Here's an easy to read research letter with some perspective.
>>> http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/164/2/205
>>
>> Am I missing something here? The study seems to say that they hunted
>> through their patients with damaged [osteonecrotic] hips to find those 15
>> who had taken steroids [prescribed for legit medical reasons]. And guess
>> what? All 15 had damaged hips, and they all had taken steroids!
>>
>
> The point was that the study found AVN even after short-term use of
> steroids. This contradicts others' claims that it's only a factor for
> chronic use. All of the patients had some other kind of hip damage that
> was treated with steroids, and then developed AVN.

The point is that this study is simply not acceptable as research. There
were no controls and so you need to use statistical methods and the sample
group was too small. What I'm saying is that a sampling size this small
cannot determine if it wasn't pure chance that allowed those 5 to develop
AVN.

What's MORE, the people in this study were being treated with Prednisone and
not abusing corticosteroids. The implication surely was that Floyd was for
some completely unknown reason abusing corticosteroids. If you're now
suggesting that the treatment FOR his broken hip joint caused the AVN isn't
this beside the point?

 

[Tom Kunich]

"Patricio Carlos" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> ST wrote:
>> What type of steroids did they take??
>> Anabolic or Androgenic??
> The AVN link is with corticosteroids. Many pro athletes use these both
> for their performance enhancing benefits and for anti-inflammatory
> properties following injuries/inflammation. Sometimes they are injected
> directly into sore muscles. Sometimes just taken orally.
>
> For an interesting read, Google Gaumont's comments on corticosteroids.
> He talks about how riders would make their scrotum red through rubbing,
> tell the doctor they needed a topical steroid cream but that it had to
> be diprosone. Then you'd get a therapeutic use exemption for it so
> could inject diprostene without worrying. Alternatively you'd claim you
> had an allergy to mites and needed nasacort spray which would allow you
> to use cortisone.

Psst - HPLC and GCMS tell not just the presence but the dosages as well. You
can't rub some creme on and then inject 1400 mg and think that you're safe.

 

[Geraard Spergen]

Tom Kunich wrote:

> "Geraard Spergen" <[email protected]>
>>
>>The point was that the study found AVN even after short-term use of
>>steroids. This contradicts others' claims that it's only a factor for
>>chronic use. All of the patients had some other kind of hip damage that
>>was treated with steroids, and then developed AVN.
>
>
> The point is that this study is simply not acceptable as research. There
> were no controls and so you need to use statistical methods and the sample
> group was too small. What I'm saying is that a sampling size this small
> cannot determine if it wasn't pure chance that allowed those 5 to develop
> AVN.
>
> What's MORE, the people in this study were being treated with Prednisone and
> not abusing corticosteroids. The implication surely was that Floyd was for
> some completely unknown reason abusing corticosteroids. If you're now
> suggesting that the treatment FOR his broken hip joint caused the AVN isn't
> this beside the point?

I did err in saying the patients had gotten steroid treatment for nonAVN
hip problems, it just said they had gotten steroids and didn't mention
the reason. All the patients developed AVN in their hips a short while
after a short course of steroid treatments (for whatever symptom). I
know an AVN patient whose doctor blamed her asthma inhaler - probably
just a guess but she didn't have any other indicators.

Anyway - my view on the subject:
Probability that FL's AVN is a result of his fracture two years ago: 99%
Probability that FL's AVN is a result of steroid treatment following the
fracture: 1%
Probability that FL's AVN is a result of steroid abuse as a PED: <<<<1%

 

[h squared]

Donald Munro wrote:

> Patricio Carlos wrote:
>
>>For an interesting read, Google Gaumont's comments on corticosteroids.
>>He talks about how riders would make their scrotum red through rubbing
>
>
> Another job for heather if she gets tired of her job of inspecting for
> scrotal patches. Admittedly not very pleasant but somebodies got to do it.
>

i am not going to apply for a job to sandpaper bike racers' balls, thank
you very much. that's more of a job for lafferty's kinky friends, no?

h

 

[Tom Kunich]

"Geraard Spergen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Anyway - my view on the subject:
> Probability that FL's AVN is a result of his fracture two years ago: 99%
> Probability that FL's AVN is a result of steroid treatment following the
> fracture: 1%
> Probability that FL's AVN is a result of steroid abuse as a PED: <<<<1%

Which was my point in the first place. I realize that was also your position
but you were excusing Patricio for implying that it WAS because of steroid
abuse.

 

[Tom Kunich]

"h squared" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news[email protected]...
> Donald Munro wrote:
>> Patricio Carlos wrote:
>>>For an interesting read, Google Gaumont's comments on corticosteroids.
>>>He talks about how riders would make their scrotum red through rubbing
>>
>> Another job for heather if she gets tired of her job of inspecting for
>> scrotal patches. Admittedly not very pleasant but somebodies got to do
>> it.
>
> i am not going to apply for a job to sandpaper bike racers' balls, thank
> you very much. that's more of a job for lafferty's kinky friends, no?

I was thinking it more a job for Laff@me himself.