Landis impressive today, but...



"Keith" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> ...it's a bit appalling to think how he rode like an iron in the
> Dauphiné. You would never have seen a guy like Hinault or Merckx take
> such a beating a month before the TdF, I guess they don't make them
> like that anymore, eh ? Sure things have changed, but in my book a
> champ is a champ and Landis was a chump in the Dauphine.

Do you really believe what you post?
 
On Fri, 14 Jul 2006 16:34:50 -0700, "Frank Drackman"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"Keith" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> ...it's a bit appalling to think how he rode like an iron in the
>> Dauphiné. You would never have seen a guy like Hinault or Merckx take
>> such a beating a month before the TdF, I guess they don't make them
>> like that anymore, eh ? Sure things have changed, but in my book a
>> champ is a champ and Landis was a chump in the Dauphine.
>
>Do you really believe what you post?

Most likely, but feel free to elaborate.
 
Simon Brooke wrote:

> Exactly. I hope he can make it to Paris, but with a serious health
> problem and a relatively weak team I'd be very surprised if he can get
> there in yellow.

dumbass,

it's phonak's fault they are a weak team. botero, gutierrez, perez and
hamilton are all watching the tour from home.
 
[email protected] wrote:
> Simon Brooke wrote:
>
> > Exactly. I hope he can make it to Paris, but with a serious health
> > problem and a relatively weak team I'd be very surprised if he can get
> > there in yellow.
>
> dumbass,
>
> it's phonak's fault they are a weak team. botero, gutierrez, perez and
> hamilton are all watching the tour from home.

And Camenzind.
 
"[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>
> [email protected] wrote:
>> Simon Brooke wrote:
>>
>> > Exactly. I hope he can make it to Paris, but with a serious health
>> > problem and a relatively weak team I'd be very surprised if he can get
>> > there in yellow.
>>
>> dumbass,
>>
>> it's phonak's fault they are a weak team. botero, gutierrez, perez and
>> hamilton are all watching the tour from home.
>
> And Camenzind.


can we count Tyler's twin too?
 
Scott wrote:
> Sounds like you just accused Floyd of blood doping???

Well he does ride for Phonak.
Hamiton, Perez, Camenzind, Botero, Gutierrez...

And avascular necrosis is a well recognized complication of
corticosteroid use.
 
"Patricio Carlos" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Scott wrote:
>> Sounds like you just accused Floyd of blood doping???
>
> Well he does ride for Phonak.
> Hamiton, Perez, Camenzind, Botero, Gutierrez...
>
> And avascular necrosis is a well recognized complication of
> corticosteroid use.

Why do you invent stupid things?

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/avascular-necrosis/DS00650

"Avascular necrosis is the death of bone tissue due to a lack of blood
supply. This can lead to tiny breaks in the bone and the bone's eventual
collapse. Avascular necrosis most often affects the head of the thighbone
(femur), causing hip pain. But it may affect other bones as well.
Blood supply to the bone can be temporarily interrupted or completely cut
off for a number of reasons, but the most frequent cause is a broken bone
(fracture)."

"Most cases of avascular necrosis follow trauma to the bone - for instance,
a broken bone (fracture) or dislocated joint."

Are you denying that Landis had a broken hip? If that's the case and if
indeed this is the most common cause of such an illness then perhaps you
might want to explain to us why you want to find another cause?
 
Patricio Carlos wrote:
>> And avascular necrosis is a well recognized complication of
>> corticosteroid use.

Tom Kunich wrote:
> Why do you invent stupid things?
> Are you denying that Landis had a broken hip? If that's the case and if
> indeed this is the most common cause of such an illness then perhaps you
> might want to explain to us why you want to find another cause?

Dumbass,
You really have a terminal case of Cranial Anuslitus.

The link below was the first on the page for a google query for 'avascular
necrosis cortizone'

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=893509&dopt=Abstract
 
Tom Kunich wrote:
> "Patricio Carlos" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Scott wrote:
>>
>>>Sounds like you just accused Floyd of blood doping???
>>
>>Well he does ride for Phonak.
>>Hamiton, Perez, Camenzind, Botero, Gutierrez...
>>
>>And avascular necrosis is a well recognized complication of
>>corticosteroid use.
>
>
> Why do you invent stupid things?
>
> http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/avascular-necrosis/DS00650
>
> "Avascular necrosis is the death of bone tissue due to a lack of blood
> supply. This can lead to tiny breaks in the bone and the bone's eventual
> collapse. Avascular necrosis most often affects the head of the thighbone
> (femur), causing hip pain. But it may affect other bones as well.
> Blood supply to the bone can be temporarily interrupted or completely cut
> off for a number of reasons, but the most frequent cause is a broken bone
> (fracture)."
>
> "Most cases of avascular necrosis follow trauma to the bone - for instance,
> a broken bone (fracture) or dislocated joint."
>
> Are you denying that Landis had a broken hip? If that's the case and if
> indeed this is the most common cause of such an illness then perhaps you
> might want to explain to us why you want to find another cause?

He didn't invent it - it is very well documented, if not understood.
From your same link (hint, click on CAUSES, don't just read the INTRO):
**********************
Corticosteroids. It isn't clear how these anti-inflammatory medications,
such as prednisone, cause avascular necrosis. People who take high doses
of corticosteroids for long periods of time — for instance, people with
chronic illnesses such as rheumatoid arthritis and lupus — are more
likely to experience avascular necrosis. Avascular necrosis is rare in
people who take lower doses of corticosteroids for a short time.
Corticosteroid injections — for instance, into an inflamed or arthritic
joint — don't cause avascular necrosis.
********************

Landis has been taking steroids for his hip, it's in his file and above
the boards. Can't say that the steroids are the cause, but can't rule
them out either.
 
"Geraard Spergen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Tom Kunich wrote:
>> "Patricio Carlos" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>Scott wrote:
>>>
>>>>Sounds like you just accused Floyd of blood doping???
>>>
>>>Well he does ride for Phonak.
>>>Hamiton, Perez, Camenzind, Botero, Gutierrez...
>>>
>>>And avascular necrosis is a well recognized complication of
>>>corticosteroid use.
>>
>>
>> Why do you invent stupid things?
>>
>> http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/avascular-necrosis/DS00650
>>
>> "Avascular necrosis is the death of bone tissue due to a lack of blood
>> supply. This can lead to tiny breaks in the bone and the bone's eventual
>> collapse. Avascular necrosis most often affects the head of the thighbone
>> (femur), causing hip pain. But it may affect other bones as well.
>> Blood supply to the bone can be temporarily interrupted or completely cut
>> off for a number of reasons, but the most frequent cause is a broken bone
>> (fracture)."
>>
>> "Most cases of avascular necrosis follow trauma to the bone - for
>> instance, a broken bone (fracture) or dislocated joint."
>>
>> Are you denying that Landis had a broken hip? If that's the case and if
>> indeed this is the most common cause of such an illness then perhaps you
>> might want to explain to us why you want to find another cause?
>
> He didn't invent it - it is very well documented, if not understood. From
> your same link (hint, click on CAUSES, don't just read the INTRO):
> **********************
> Corticosteroids. It isn't clear how these anti-inflammatory medications,
> such as prednisone, cause avascular necrosis. People who take high doses
> of corticosteroids for long periods of time — for instance, people with
> chronic illnesses such as rheumatoid arthritis and lupus — are more likely
> to experience avascular necrosis. Avascular necrosis is rare in people who
> take lower doses of corticosteroids for a short time. Corticosteroid
> injections — for instance, into an inflamed or arthritic joint — don't
> cause avascular necrosis.
> ********************
>
> Landis has been taking steroids for his hip, it's in his file and above
> the boards. Can't say that the steroids are the cause, but can't rule
> them out either.

Let's clear this up - how many cases are caused by steroid abuse? Or maybe
you missed the part, "Corticosteroid injections — for instance, into an
inflamed or arthritic joint — don't cause avascular necrosis"?
 
Tom Kunich wrote:

> "Geraard Spergen" <[email protected]> wrote
>
>>He didn't invent it - it is very well documented, if not understood.

>>Landis has been taking steroids for his hip, it's in his file and above
>>the boards. Can't say that the steroids are the cause, but can't rule
>>them out either.
>
>
> Let's clear this up - how many cases are caused by steroid abuse? Or maybe
> you missed the part, "Corticosteroid injections — for instance, into an
> inflamed or arthritic joint — don't cause avascular necrosis"?
>
>
I didn't miss it, I only said that you can't rule it out and that your
claim Patricio made it up was wrong. The Phonak doper bit was over the
top but the steroid connection was not.

Here's an easy to read research letter with some perspective.
http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/164/2/205

I offer this as an interesting story about the side effects of steroids,
not as any reflection on Landis or his decision about his hip treatment.
 
Geraard Spergen wrote:

> Tom Kunich wrote:
>
>> "Geraard Spergen" <[email protected]> wrote
>>
>>> He didn't invent it - it is very well documented, if not understood.
>
>
>>> Landis has been taking steroids for his hip, it's in his file and
>>> above the boards. Can't say that the steroids are the cause, but
>>> can't rule them out either.
>>
>>
>>
>> Let's clear this up - how many cases are caused by steroid abuse? Or
>> maybe you missed the part, "Corticosteroid injections — for instance,
>> into an inflamed or arthritic joint — don't cause avascular necrosis"?
>>
>>
> I didn't miss it, I only said that you can't rule it out and that your
> claim Patricio made it up was wrong. The Phonak doper bit was over the
> top but the steroid connection was not.
>
> Here's an easy to read research letter with some perspective.
> http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/164/2/205

Am I missing something here? The study seems to say that they hunted
through their patients with damaged [osteonecrotic] hips to find those
15 who had taken steroids [prescribed for legit medical reasons]. And
guess what? All 15 had damaged hips, and they all had taken steroids!

The only explanation I can see is that they said they couldn't identify
other factors as the cause of the osteonecrosis.

Is it the case that in the vast majority of cases of osteonecrosis, a
clear cause is identifiable?

The study author *do* admit that:

"A potential criticism of our study is that the osteonecrosis seen in
our patients may have been either idiopathic or associated with some
other (as yet unknown) precipitating factor. Although this is possible,
we think that the number of cases [15 cases] in this series provides a
strong link between steroid administration and the subsequent
development of osteonecrosis in these patients."

I'm not a physician, and I only play a statistician in the classroom,
but this particular study seems pretty weak to me.

Mark
 
Mark wrote:
> Am I missing something here? The study seems to say that they hunted
> through their patients with damaged [osteonecrotic] hips to find those
> 15 who had taken steroids [prescribed for legit medical reasons]. And
> guess what? All 15 had damaged hips, and they all had taken steroids!

Yes. Look up plenty of other text books or studies. Steroids are well
recognized causes of AVN. Both in the long term user and even in those
taking them in short term big doses.
 
Mark wrote:

> Geraard Spergen wrote:
>
>>
>> Here's an easy to read research letter with some perspective.
>> http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/164/2/205
>
>
> Am I missing something here? The study seems to say that they hunted
> through their patients with damaged [osteonecrotic] hips to find those
> 15 who had taken steroids [prescribed for legit medical reasons]. And
> guess what? All 15 had damaged hips, and they all had taken steroids!
>

The point was that the study found AVN even after short-term use of
steroids. This contradicts others' claims that it's only a factor for
chronic use. All of the patients had some other kind of hip damage that
was treated with steroids, and then developed AVN.
 
In article <[email protected]>,
"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:

> "Fairey Munro" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...

Ahh, the Klassic Kunich style: if someone disagrees with you they are surely a
homosexual. You really need to confront this issue of yours head on.

> > The link below was the first on the page for a google query for 'avascular
> > necrosis cortizone'
> >
> > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_ui
> > ds=893509&dopt=Abstract
>
> So something CAN occur and therefore that was the reason?
>
> We have YOUR claim that Landis never fell and broke his hip - the
> OVERWHELMING majority cause of such an illness.

Care to point out where Donald said that Landis never fell and broke his hip?

--
tanx,
Howard

Never take a tenant with a monkey.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
 
"Geraard Spergen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Tom Kunich wrote:
>>
>> Let's clear this up - how many cases are caused by steroid abuse? Or
>> maybe you missed the part, "Corticosteroid injections — for instance,
>> into an inflamed or arthritic joint — don't cause avascular necrosis"?
>>
>>
> I didn't miss it, I only said that you can't rule it out and that your
> claim Patricio made it up was wrong. The Phonak doper bit was over the
> top but the steroid connection was not.

The steroid "connection" is so far out in left field that it's not even
worth responding to in a real world. Landis broke his hip. That isn't
surmise - that is a fact. It was reported at the time and he was forced to
take time off to heal. The medical reports of his progress may very well be
the reason that Postal dropped his contract.

To then suggest that EVEN though he had the cause of 99% of these cases that
it was REALLY caused by corticosteroid abuse (especially since that would
have been readily shown in the tests) is so far over the top that you have
to laugh.

> Here's an easy to read research letter with some perspective.
> http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/164/2/205
>
> I offer this as an interesting story about the side effects of steroids,
> not as any reflection on Landis or his decision about his hip treatment.

Geraard, I understand what you're saying (BTW all of the studies have this
sort of statement in them in one form or another - "A potential criticism of
our study is that the osteonecrosis seen in our patients may have been
either idiopathic or associated with some other (as yet unknown)
precipitating factor.")

The CONNECTION is that sports people who often abuse their bodies and HAPPEN
to have used corticosteroids purely as a side issue are being told that it
was the corticosteroids. In my opinion the studies are simply not
significant.

But that still doesn't disguise the fact that the overwhelming majority of
sports related avascular necrosis is caused by hip damage and bicyclists
only rarely break a hip and Floyd in fact did.
 
"Patricio Carlos" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Mark wrote:
>> Am I missing something here? The study seems to say that they hunted
>> through their patients with damaged [osteonecrotic] hips to find those
>> 15 who had taken steroids [prescribed for legit medical reasons]. And
>> guess what? All 15 had damaged hips, and they all had taken steroids!
>
> Yes. Look up plenty of other text books or studies. Steroids are well
> recognized causes of AVN. Both in the long term user and even in those
> taking them in short term big doses.

Are you building a case to be able to recite after Landis wins the Tour? I
can see it now, "Of course he won - he was doping and our Spanish heros
weren't."

Americans cheered and supported Delgado AFTER he'd been charged. Americans
supported Indurain while so many were claiming that NO ONE could TT that
well without using drugs. (Well, except for LeMond but the truth is that
more French liked the little whiner than Americans.)

So I wonder why you're so intent on building some silly case that at most
has a statistical probability of less than one percent.
 
Geraard Spergen wrote:

> Mark wrote:
>
>> Geraard Spergen wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Here's an easy to read research letter with some perspective.
>>> http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/164/2/205
>>
>>
>>
>> Am I missing something here? The study seems to say that they hunted
>> through their patients with damaged [osteonecrotic] hips to find those
>> 15 who had taken steroids [prescribed for legit medical reasons]. And
>> guess what? All 15 had damaged hips, and they all had taken steroids!
>>
>
> The point was that the study found AVN even after short-term use of
> steroids. This contradicts others' claims that it's only a factor for
> chronic use. All of the patients had some other kind of hip damage that
> was treated with steroids, and then developed AVN.

To pick a nit, if I read the study correctly, NONE of the patients
received the steroids to treat hip damage, but rather to treat other
problems (pneumonia, asthma, bee sting, ...)

More importantly, your answer above seems to have already accepted that
steroid use *was* a factor *in this study's patients*, which I think was
not established by the research letter you cite.

To answer Patricio's post, fair enough *if* other studies show a steroid
-> AVN link, (I'm not saying they do or don't) but the article Geraard
cited looked weak to me.

Mark
 
On 7/17/06 7:00 PM, in article [email protected],
"Mark" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Geraard Spergen wrote:
>
>> Mark wrote:
>>
>>> Geraard Spergen wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Here's an easy to read research letter with some perspective.
>>>> http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/164/2/205
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Am I missing something here? The study seems to say that they hunted
>>> through their patients with damaged [osteonecrotic] hips to find those
>>> 15 who had taken steroids [prescribed for legit medical reasons]. And
>>> guess what? All 15 had damaged hips, and they all had taken steroids!
>>>
>>
>> The point was that the study found AVN even after short-term use of
>> steroids. This contradicts others' claims that it's only a factor for
>> chronic use. All of the patients had some other kind of hip damage that
>> was treated with steroids, and then developed AVN.
>
> To pick a nit, if I read the study correctly, NONE of the patients
> received the steroids to treat hip damage, but rather to treat other
> problems (pneumonia, asthma, bee sting, ...)
>
> More importantly, your answer above seems to have already accepted that
> steroid use *was* a factor *in this study's patients*, which I think was
> not established by the research letter you cite.
>
> To answer Patricio's post, fair enough *if* other studies show a steroid
> -> AVN link, (I'm not saying they do or don't) but the article Geraard
> cited looked weak to me.
>
> Mark
>

What type of steroids did they take??
Anabolic or Androgenic??
 
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