lances evil plan??

House said:

How is it a topical argument if it is based on lies, half-truths, and leaving out important facts? I obfuscate??? Either you don't know the meaning of the word or are confused. The only person who does this is Flyer with his lies, half-truths, etc.

A) So you admit that what i say about Flyer is correct. Good you are coming around.

B) I have to tell you my feelings on doping in sport? I'll do it since apparently you just defend flyer without actually reading what people write.

Doping is a problem in cycling...just as it is in every other sport these days. Is it worse in cycling? From everything that keeps popping up in other sports and some research I did on drug suspensions in international sport no. Do I think Armstrong is riding "clean" this season? Well if he has been clean the whole time (which until I see some real proof, not Flyer's desperate attempts to make any connection become proof I believe) then obviously he is riding clean. If he has been doping then why would he stop, if it is true then he obviously knows how to stay ahead of the game. It would make no sense. As I have said before I love the sport of cycling and when it is sullied I will rant but I will not soil it to my fellow fans with lies, half-truths, etc. It boggles my mind that anyone can claim to love something and then spend so much time dogging it.

Now two questions for you:

1) Based on you saying Flyer is "guilty of the sin of omission" why do you defend him so vehemently, even in the face of proof that he is wrong?

2) Do you truly believe that the whole peloton dopes illegally and more specifically Lance? Whether yes or no, why?

Hmm still somewhat confused as to where you glean from my post that what you say about Flyer is correct, however...

1) My point was that your continued refusal to answer my simple questions made you as guilty of that sin as Flyer - i.e. you are both capable of refusing to answer a question, both of you - as personally I think you are really as bad as each other. Funnily enough, I don't necessarily agree with the way that Flyer states his arguments and there is a lot to be said for there being a dedicated doping forum here - but you don't so yourself any favours with your gung ho personal attacks on posters who apparently support Flyer. I'm sure we're all mature enough to form our own opinions - I don't see any sheep here, only basically intelligent and informed posters - but your attitude is every bit as off putting as Flyers - if I were a new poster and read some of the trials you put posters through to prove they don't have an allegiance to Flyer - well, I wouldn't bother typing.

What I'm saying is - you can both be as bad as each other. You accuse Flyer of posting half truths and lies and of repetitive posting, yet you post nothing concrete and evidential in response, just tautological arguments and insults. Perhaps this isn't the best way to handle Flyer, perhaps the best way is to keep trying to have that adult argument, continuing to pose questions and counter arguments. Well, maybe it's worth a try.

b) In terms of doping in the peloton, I don't believe GC contenders can be effective without it. Doping isn't about going faster on a given stage - it's about improving your ability to train and recover and prepare. So, yes, I believe that Armstrong and Hamilton and Heras and Ullrich and all the rest of them are exploring the grey areas between legality and illegality.

You say you've done some research - what were your findings? My assertions are based on talking to team mechanics and old pros. I'd be interested to know what you have turned up.

micron said:

Hmm still somewhat confused as to where you glean from my post that what you say about Flyer is correct, however...

1) My point was that your continued refusal to answer my simple questions made you as guilty of that sin as Flyer - i.e. you are both capable of refusing to answer a question, both of you - as personally I think you are really as bad as each other. Funnily enough, I don't necessarily agree with the way that Flyer states his arguments and there is a lot to be said for there being a dedicated doping forum here - but you don't so yourself any favours with your gung ho personal attacks on posters who apparently support Flyer. I'm sure we're all mature enough to form our own opinions - I don't see any sheep here, only basically intelligent and informed posters - but your attitude is every bit as off putting as Flyers - if I were a new poster and read some of the trials you put posters through to prove they don't have an allegiance to Flyer - well, I wouldn't bother typing.

What I'm saying is - you can both be as bad as each other. You accuse Flyer of posting half truths and lies and of repetitive posting, yet you post nothing concrete and evidential in response, just tautological arguments and insults. Perhaps this isn't the best way to handle Flyer, perhaps the best way is to keep trying to have that adult argument, continuing to pose questions and counter arguments. Well, maybe it's worth a try.

b) In terms of doping in the peloton, I don't believe GC contenders can be effective without it. Doping isn't about going faster on a given stage - it's about improving your ability to train and recover and prepare. So, yes, I believe that Armstrong and Hamilton and Heras and Ullrich and all the rest of them are exploring the grey areas between legality and illegality.

You say you've done some research - what were your findings? My assertions are based on talking to team mechanics and old pros. I'd be interested to know what you have turned up.

It's always funny how late in the fray people remember that they have been talking to pros, that one always gets me. My research was simply comparing endurance sports testing results. Sports that have athletes who can use the same products and have accessability and cycling was surpassed in drug offences by sports such as swimming. I also know people in the peloton as well as in other pro sports (I am a former college athlete who got into cycling with a group who had one guy go to Europe and almost all of the rest go pro in America and now am a college coach) and I know for a fact that everyone doesn't dope. His lot say it's those of us who don't scream "everyone dopes" are naive, well I know that it is naive to think everyone does...for a fact. You say I post nothing concrete or evidential, obviously you don't read what is written. I have presented things that refute what he says many times and he just runs away. Yes I argue and have no problem calling names and making personal attacks like he (and you I might add) does but in no way do I compare to him, I have never lied on this board, presented something with half-truths or tried to gloss over certain facts that hurt my case. I am sorry you can't see that. Look at what he has written recently: he has used the holocaust as an argument, claimed 100% of football players are on drugs and now he is comparing Boyer and child molestation to Lance and the possability of doping. You really think this is someone who presents good arguments and would be willing to have an adult conversation? How can you say you don't see sheep when there are people who will argue anything, no matter what it is based on if it against what Flyer has written. Go back and read through his threads and you will see what I mean. I was just reading one where a discussion of track and field records came up and a few people argued until their point was proven wrong and then switched tacts immediately. I have attempted to engage flyer in adult conversations and he either refuses to answer the questions directly or he simply reposts the same tired [censored]. You never did answer why you defend him so vehemently. Anyway on to more important things: Where are you from (England I assume, if not sorry!) are you a football fan? If so who is your club?

Finally adult conversation from your side too....never too late to learn😉

House said:

It's always funny how late in the fray people remember that they have been talking to pros, that one always gets me. My research was simply comparing endurance sports testing results. Sports that have athletes who can use the same products and have accessability and cycling was surpassed in drug offences by sports such as swimming. I also know people in the peloton as well as in other pro sports (I am a former college athlete who got into cycling with a group who had one guy go to Europe and almost all of the rest go pro in America and now am a college coach) and I know for a fact that everyone doesn't dope. His lot say it's those of us who don't scream "everyone dopes" are naive, well I know that it is naive to think everyone does...for a fact. You say I post nothing concrete or evidential, obviously you don't read what is written. I have presented things that refute what he says many times and he just runs away. Yes I argue and have no problem calling names and making personal attacks like he (and you I might add) does but in no way do I compare to him, I have never lied on this board, presented something with half-truths or tried to gloss over certain facts that hurt my case. I am sorry you can't see that. Look at what he has written recently: he has used the holocaust as an argument, claimed 100% of football players are on drugs and now he is comparing Boyer and child molestation to Lance and the possability of doping. You really think this is someone who presents good arguments and would be willing to have an adult conversation? How can you say you don't see sheep when there are people who will argue anything, no matter what it is based on if it against what Flyer has written. Go back and read through his threads and you will see what I mean. I was just reading one where a discussion of track and field records came up and a few people argued until their point was proven wrong and then switched tacts immediately. I have attempted to engage flyer in adult conversations and he either refuses to answer the questions directly or he simply reposts the same tired [censored]. You never did answer why you defend him so vehemently. Anyway on to more important things: Where are you from (England I assume, if not sorry!) are you a football fan? If so who is your club?

ok, jerk, come talk to me when you have at least 20 posts!😉

(amazing what happens when someone of the other viewpoint is willing to have adult conversation)

hehe trying my best to get more posts in😉......btw isn't RBR more youre type of forum. Alot of domestic talk and smacking people around......you would fit nicely😉

House said:

ok, jerk, come talk to me when you have at least 20 posts!😉

(amazing what happens when someone of the other viewpoint is willing to have adult conversation)

MJtje said:

hehe trying my best to get more posts in😉......btw isn't RBR more youre type of forum. Alot of domestic talk and smacking people around......you would fit nicely😉

Never been on the forum there. As much as I have tried I just can't get into the domestic scene except for following a few guys I know and the USPRO Championships. I have been thinking about planning a weekend around one of the races this summer. I only smack the few, the proud, the stupid around!:p

House said:

Never been on the forum there. As much as I have tried I just can't get into the domestic scene except for following a few guys I know and the USPRO Championships. I have been thinking about planning a weekend around one of the races this summer. I only smack the few, the proud, the stupid around!:p

House, in the spirit of 'adult discussion':

You asked me about Flyer and why I support him - yes, he can be repetitious and, yes, that must seem annoying for some. Yes, he sometimes mangles his facts, or doean't make the best argument out of them, but essentially the argument he makes chimes closely to what my own experience tells me is the truth about doping in the peloton. Having spent 7 years involved in cycling in France from the local to the national level (though more towards the local) I suppose I've heard a lot of stories and been around a lot of cycnics. It's a position on which we will probably have to agree to disagree.

But I support Flyer's right to hold his opinion and, however much you may disagree, or find half truths or lies or omissions in it - he expresses it calmly and generally without malice to other posters. He says what he wants to say generally without the insults that you, beast etc are capable of throwing around.

At the end of the day, the arguments on both sides are, I believe, motivated by passion - and it's great that so many posters feel passionate about the sport. But that can turn ugly or become irritating - thing is, we probably all are passionate about seeing a clean sport but perhaps some of us are a little more realistic about the scale of the problem than others - who knows?

You're recent posts have been interesting - nice to see the real intelligence instead of the trash talking intelligence coming out. You should use the same logic and coolness with Flyer instead of letting him get you wound up...just a suggestion.

and now to the real question - football - by which you surely mean the game about which one manager said 'a matter of life and death? it's much more important than that'? I like Arsenal's style - Henry is superb - my partner is a Chelski fanatic - really I follow Luton Town and Sheffield for entirely sentimental reasons. Not to get absolutely off topic but who do you follow?

hehe nice to get here some soccer talk😉 I like Arsenal too, great midfield and good strikers.....have to go with 'the iceman' Bergkamp. In Holland I like Ajax.....

Sorry guys for talking a little bit off topic😄

micron said:

and now to the real question - football - by which you surely mean the game about which one manager said 'a matter of life and death? it's much more important than that'? I like Arsenal's style - Henry is superb - my partner is a Chelski fanatic - really I follow Luton Town and Sheffield for entirely sentimental reasons. Not to get absolutely off topic but who do you follow?

micron said:

House, in the spirit of 'adult discussion':

You asked me about Flyer and why I support him - yes, he can be repetitious and, yes, that must seem annoying for some. Yes, he sometimes mangles his facts, or doean't make the best argument out of them, but essentially the argument he makes chimes closely to what my own experience tells me is the truth about doping in the peloton. Having spent 7 years involved in cycling in France from the local to the national level (though more towards the local) I suppose I've heard a lot of stories and been around a lot of cycnics. It's a position on which we will probably have to agree to disagree.

But I support Flyer's right to hold his opinion and, however much you may disagree, or find half truths or lies or omissions in it - he expresses it calmly and generally without malice to other posters. He says what he wants to say generally without the insults that you, beast etc are capable of throwing around.

At the end of the day, the arguments on both sides are, I believe, motivated by passion - and it's great that so many posters feel passionate about the sport. But that can turn ugly or become irritating - thing is, we probably all are passionate about seeing a clean sport but perhaps some of us are a little more realistic about the scale of the problem than others - who knows?

You're recent posts have been interesting - nice to see the real intelligence instead of the trash talking intelligence coming out. You should use the same logic and coolness with Flyer instead of letting him get you wound up...just a suggestion.

and now to the real question - football - by which you surely mean the game about which one manager said 'a matter of life and death? it's much more important than that'? I like Arsenal's style - Henry is superb - my partner is a Chelski fanatic - really I follow Luton Town and Sheffield for entirely sentimental reasons. Not to get absolutely off topic but who do you follow?

My beef with Flyer and those that support him is that he tells one side, with lies, etc. and refuses to acknowledge anything else or admit when he is wrong. I have seen many newbies to the sport on this board and others and all a person like Flyer does with his hysterical rantings (read with an open mind and you will see his posts are neither calm nor without malice, first towards certain riders and then towards anyone who disagrees with him) is turn them off of the sport. If he truly loves the sport he should be discussing the problems he feels there are without trying to scare people away. That's what happens when you only post the things he does, when you post these things in every thread whether about doping or not, when you can't admit you were wrong or left out facts or flat out lied. Flyer has yet to show he cares about the sport in any way except to make people hate it.

Back to life and death topics. About 10 years ago I saw this awesome French player on a highlight show and fell back in love with football after about a ten year flirtation (after a bad experience on a team). He was Eric Cantona and I became a fan of his team...Manchester United just trying to see more of him. My wife gave me stock in the club as my wedding present! Which Sheffield do you like? I am a bit of a Wednesday fan having known a girl from Sheffield in college (who's dad played for them and owns some big sports bar in the town)! How anyone can root for Chelsea I have no idea!

oh yeah, you wanted to know who I supported House? Cheltenham Town lol (birthplace).

House said:

My beef with Flyer and those that support him is that he tells one side, with lies, etc. and refuses to acknowledge anything else or admit when he is wrong. I have seen many newbies to the sport on this board and others and all a person like Flyer does with his hysterical rantings (read with an open mind and you will see his posts are neither calm nor without malice, first towards certain riders and then towards anyone who disagrees with him) is turn them off of the sport. If he truly loves the sport he should be discussing the problems he feels there are without trying to scare people away. That's what happens when you only post the things he does, when you post these things in every thread whether about doping or not, when you can't admit you were wrong or left out facts or flat out lied. Flyer has yet to show he cares about the sport in any way except to make people hate it.

Back to life and death topics. About 10 years ago I saw this awesome French player on a highlight show and fell back in love with football after about a ten year flirtation (after a bad experience on a team). He was Eric Cantona and I became a fan of his team...Manchester United just trying to see more of him. My wife gave me stock in the club as my wedding present! Which Sheffield do you like? I am a bit of a Wednesday fan having known a girl from Sheffield in college (who's dad played for them and owns some big sports bar in the town)! How anyone can root for Chelsea I have no idea!

Sheffield Utd - come on you Blades