Lance Resentment

"Robert Chung" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Kenny said:

When people leave their
country to see e.g. the WC or a classic race during spring or fall,
they go exclusively for the cycling. They want to see as much as
possible, they don't get drunk cause they really want to see the race.

http://www.velonews.com/images/news/191.100.f.jpg

Nice try but you may not confuse people with a mental handicap with
drunk old geezers.
Note that this picture is taken at the WC cyclocross in January during
winter. So you sometimes may need some heart warming booze.

"Paul Cassel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I got asked by a friend today here in the USA. (since I ride as a
recreation) if there is resentment in France and other European nations
about Armstrong doing so well in the TdF competition this and in other
years.

There is, but I think it's based on the nationality of Lance's rivals.
The Spanish, Basque, and German fans seemed to be the worst. And I
don't think they hate him because he's American. Likely, they hate his
dominance, his suspected drug use, and his sometime disregard of
racing etiquette.

(snip)

Quoted message said:

I know that the past years there is tension between my government and others
especially those of France and Germany, but I'd hope those tensions wouldn't
spill over to people and sports. Am I a naif?

My guess is it plays a small part, if any. Then again, I live in the
US, so it's just a feeling. I don't have documented proof.

Quoted message said:

Also, while I'm showing how much a naif I may be, my friend said Lance is
having an affair with a singer star or movie star of some sort. Is that the
cause of resentment too beause he is not being loyal to his wife who stuck
with him when he was ill? This was news to me too, but I am not much on
gossip. Thanks for any comments.

She didn't exactly stick with him when he was ill. IIRC, she entered
the picture after he was already sick. He had a girlfriend when he got
sick. That ended, and he and Kristin got serious.

Quoted message said:

-paul

Quoted message said:

But what seems to be a mainstream opinion about Lance Armstrong in
Germany and France is that he brakes the unwritten ethical rules of
the tour de france. The greatest sportsmen in bike racing (like
Indurain, Hinault, ...) always tried to win without humbling the
losers. People here love this art of sharing victories. One of these
unwritten rules is that you don´t go for winning an etappe if you are
the leader of the classement. Another one is that when you elope with
a group and will become the first in the classement because of the
time between the group an the second in the classement you let someone
of the group win the etappe. And still another unwritten rule is that
if you don´t do any work in a group you don´t go for the final sprint.
Lance Armstrong doesn´t care for these rules. In this year´s tour and
in the five ones before he broke every of this rule. In Germany and
France his name stands for the end of the ethical aspects in bike
racing.

You just proved Germans have not cycling tradition at all (nor have
some rational cycling thoughts). So a yellow jersey may not win
stages, right? So you really want to go back to the Indurain era?
Dude, i remember my joy when Riis (in doubtful conditions though)
attacked on hautacam in his yellow jersey. Finally an overall leader
with panache. The tour now was boring cause everybody quickly saw
that LA was going to win his 6th and his opponents where weak. Do you
really want a more dull Tour with a leader who doesn't attack or who
doesn't want to win e.g. a mountain stage?? Well please go live on
your own planet. Accordin to your stupidness Merckx would have been
the most unethical cyclist there ever was. There is only one
unwritten rule: if you do it in a smart way, or in an incredible
strong way, the winner is always right.

Quoted message said:

The people who love the tour de france not because of someone winning
it very strong, but winning it like a great sportsman don´t like the
"every second counts"-tactic of Lance Armstrong.

yep THAT is the reason Basso is over 4 minutes behind LA (7 saturday)

Kenny said:

"Robert Chung" wrote

Quoted message said:

Kenny said:

When people leave their
country to see e.g. the WC or a classic race during spring or fall,
they go exclusively for the cycling. They want to see as much as
possible, they don't get drunk cause they really want to see the race.

http://www.velonews.com/images/news/191.100.f.jpg

Note that this picture is taken at the WC cyclocross in January during
winter. So you sometimes may need some heart warming booze.

Heart warming is okay, but you think the guy with the open fly and his
hand in his pocket is warming his heart?

[email hidden] (Christoph Sch?fer) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Hi Paul.
Before answering your question about "the" attitudes about Lance
Armstrong in Germany I want to say that I am still shocked about how
German Fans treated him up the way to L´Alpe d´Huez. It was
disgusting.
There is no reason for such behaviour and all fans of the tour de
france will agree to me in that point.
But what seems to be a mainstream opinion about Lance Armstrong in
Germany and France is that he brakes the unwritten ethical rules of
the tour de france. The greatest sportsmen in bike racing (like
Indurain, Hinault, ...) always tried to win without humbling the
losers. People here love this art of sharing victories. One of these
unwritten rules is that you don´t go for winning an etappe if you are
the leader of the classement...

You are extremely stupid, naive and blind and forgetful if you
and your friends believe that [censored].

It is racing.

Lance has allowed plenty of stage winners to take it when he certaily
had the strength to do so.

Do your friends also hate Hinault? If not, why not?

Auf wiedersehen Sheisskopf!

-Ken

Roland2k said:

My guess is it plays a small part, if any. Then again, I live in the
US, so it's just a feeling. I don't have documented proof.

Some of the news agencies here in the US make it sound as if it's worth our
lives to travel to Europe we're so hated. Then when I speak with someone
from there, they wonder what I'm taking about. I think that news agencies
and governments exist mostly to stir us up against each other.

As to this drug use business, surely the Europeans can't be so innocent as
to believe that only teams from the US use such techniques. Maybe I'm overly
innocent going the other way, but I'd be surprised to find that top athletes
in any endurance sport fail to use 'enchancements' in training if not in
competition. If they don't, the next guy does making them uncompetitive.

-paul

(Kenny) said:

It's quite some arrogance if
you call your baseball finals the "WORLD" Series, though only American
teams participate. Ok, everybody knows, the US is THE country for
baseball.

Actually 40% of Major League Baseball players are not from the US and
there are Canadian teams in MLB.

Jack Hollis said:

(Kenny) said:

It's quite some arrogance if
you call your baseball finals the "WORLD" Series, though only American
teams participate. Ok, everybody knows, the US is THE country for
baseball.

Actually 40% of Major League Baseball players are not from the US and
there are Canadian teams in MLB.

It'll truly be the World Series when there's a championship involving
all nations that field competitive teams. Canada and USA do not the
entire world make.

(Kenny) said:

Dude, you guys have one excellent Tour rider (LA) and his sidekick
(TH).

You forgot Greg Lamond who should have been a four time Tour winner
because he was the best rider in 1985 when Hinault won his 5th Tour.

In any case, I don't think it's a stretch to say the the US does well
in cycling.

Obviously, the best rider over the last six years is an American. And
he ain't finished yet.

(Kenny) said:

This is what pisses me of: asses like you who immediately claim the
world when a fellow American has succes.

There's no need to be rude. Usually when people resort to personal
attacks it's because they have nothing convincing to say.

Jack Hollis said:

(Kenny) said:

Dude, you guys have one excellent Tour rider (LA) and his sidekick
(TH).

You forgot Greg Lamond who should have been a four time Tour winner
because he was the best rider in 1985 when Hinault won his 5th Tour.

Greg may have been a virtual winner, but all things being equal, you
could take away '89 if Greg and Laurent had the same equipment on that
final ITT.

Quoted message said:

In any case, I don't think it's a stretch to say the the US does well
in cycling.

Obviously, the best rider over the last six years is an American. And
he ain't finished yet.

Nah, best rider over last few years is between Bettini and Zabel.

(Kenny) said:

That and the fact that his nearest contenders
weren't as strong as they announced, disapointed most of the people.
(However it's just these riders to blame they didn't have the right
form, not LA that he has an excellent form.)

Actually, what happened last year was that Lance was in bad form so he
was unable to dominate like he did for the four years before.
Nevertheless, he's so much better than everyone else that he won
anyway. This year he's in good form and back to his dominant self.

On 23 Jul 2004 03:14:01 -0700, [email hidden] (Christoph

Sch?fer) said:

The greatest sportsmen in bike racing (like
Indurain, Hinault, ...) always tried to win without humbling the
losers. People here love this art of sharing victories.

Hinault won a lot more stages in the Tour than Lance has. In fact,
Hinault's comment to Lance yesterday after he won was, "Perfect... no
gifts."

So much for your theory.

On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 12:26:35 +0200, "Robert Chung" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And still another unwritten rule is that
if you don´t do any work in a group you don´t go for the final sprint.

So you're saying Kloden shouldn't have tried to go for the final sprint?

Indeed. According to that rule, Landis should have been allowed to
win the stage. Actually this is what Lance tried to arrange, but
Ullrich, who followed Landis and Lance up the hill, would have none of
it. When Landis made the break for the stage Ullrich chased him down.
Then, when the four were back together, Kloden, who did zero work on
the climb made a break.

So, in that situation, Lance decided to win it just to punish the
Germans for breaking the unwritten rule.

(K. J. Papai) said:

He's in the top 3 of all time with Hinault and Merckx.

Hinault only won 5 Tours because Lamond let him win in 1985. Lance is
better than Hinault ever was.

I will agree sports has nothing to do with American foriegn policy;
however, I think there are a number of people who aren't subscribing
to that. There have been a lot of warnings in the media for Americans
traveling overseas- this is no mere coincidence. As it sounds like you
are on the European contient, you might be the most qualified to
comment on that- while I'm just taking a shot in the dark/ pissing in
the wind as they say; but this much you cannot deny 1) Americans are
not very popular in Europe right now, 2) much of this hostility has
arisen since the American overthrow of the Saddam regime.

[email hidden] (Kenny) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Laz) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

It seems the hostility towards Lance is far greater this year than I
have ever heard before. I this this is mainly due to American actions
in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Oh no. Sports has nothing to do with some idiot trying to get some
oil and virtual weapons of MD. It's just at a certain moment, people
are gettin tired of seeing the same thing happening during 5
consecutive years. It's not hate or so. Especially after last year,
where it seemed that lance had lost his invincibility and Jan had
finally his form of his '97 victory, many peoply thought this tour was
going to be different. After all, this tour confirms again who's the
real man in the TDF. That and the fact that his nearest contenders
weren't as strong as they announced, disapointed most of the people.
(However it's just these riders to blame they didn't have the right
form, not LA that he has an excellent form.)
People were even tired of seeing the best rider of all time winning
his 6th tdf. At the Puy de Dome a french [censored] punched him in the
liver because he didn't want Merckx to break Anquetil's 5 tdf record.
To my opinion the record is not the reason why some people seem not to
like LA. Maybe in France where you can find their chauvinism in any
layer of the society and defitely in their TDF. So this kinda
wanting-to-see-LA-losing-the-TDF thing isn't new.

Quoted message said:

The Germans are perhaps more hostile

1. because Ullrich seems not to be capable no more of winning the TDF,
now not even ending 2nd or 3rd
2. Zabel is over the top, he's not able anymore of winning a stage or
the green jersey
3. Germans have no cycling tradition and don't seem to know how to
behave at a cycling race.
4. Germans can be real pigs (as are the English) when they're on
holidays. I rather drive back home than staying at a place where
there are to many germans and english. They are rude, noisy , don't
have manners and always seem to owe the place. I sometimes wonder if
that is still the expression of "das Herrenvolk".

I heard an interesting thing about what happened on l'Alpe d'Huez.
Many people want to see the tour because of the event itself, not
because of the cycling. They want to be part of it and some idiots
want to be seen on TV. It's summer, They're on hollidays, friends, a
loose ambiance, quite a lot of beer... When people leave their
country to see e.g. the WC or a classic race during spring or fall,
they go exclusively for the cycling. They want to see as much as
possible, they don't get drunk cause they really want to see the race.
Then things like what happened on l'Alpe don't happen cause these
people are passionate fans and know how to behave at a cycling race.

Kenny

Jack Hollis said:

On 23 Jul 2004 03:14:01 -0700, [email hidden] (Christoph

Sch?fer) said:

The greatest sportsmen in bike racing (like
Indurain, Hinault, ...) always tried to win without humbling the
losers. People here love this art of sharing victories.

Hinault won a lot more stages in the Tour than Lance has. In fact,
Hinault's comment to Lance yesterday after he won was, "Perfect... no
gifts."

So much for your theory.

Hinault's comment was "Perfect!"
Lance's follow on from that in the interview was "No gifts..."

easier said than done

Laz

[email hidden] (K. J. Papai) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Kenny) wrote google.com>...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Laz) wrote .google.com>...

Quoted message said:

It seems the hostility towards Lance is far greater this year than I
have ever heard before. I this this is mainly due to American actions
in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Oh no. Sports has nothing to do with some idiot trying to get some
oil and virtual weapons of MD. It's just at a certain moment, people
are gettin tired of seeing the same thing happening during 5
consecutive years. It's not hate or so. Especially after last year,
where it seemed that lance had lost his invincibility and Jan had
finally his form of his '97 victory, many peoply thought this tour was
going to be different. After all, this tour confirms again who's the
real man in the TDF. That and the fact that his nearest contenders
weren't as strong as they announced, disapointed most of the people.
(However it's just these riders to blame they didn't have the right
form, not LA that he has an excellent form.)

Personally I'd like to see him win 8 in a row.
No one is even in his class in July.
He has all the skills of one of the greatest champions ever and then
some. He's in the top 3 of all time with Hinault and Merckx.

Personally I'd like Lance to try the Giro/Tour double next year too. I
dreamed about that last night.

-Ken

On 23 Jul 2004 17:37:30 EDT, Richard Adams <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

It'll truly be the World Series when there's a championship involving
all nations that field competitive teams. Canada and USA do not the
entire world make.

Actually there is a baseball World Cup, which started in 1939. It
hasn't really amounted to much because up until 2001 it barred
professional players.

MLB has shown some interest in the WC because it wants to make the
game more popular around the world and this would help with that
quest.

I'd love to see a US Dream Team in baseball. I'm sure that Japan
could also field a team that could compete with the US, at least in a
7 game series. After that the Dominican Republic would be next
followed by Cuba.

Robert Chung said:

Kenny said:

"Robert Chung" wrote

Quoted message said:

Kenny wrote:

>When people leave their
>country to see e.g. the WC or a classic race during spring or fall,
>they go exclusively for the cycling. They want to see as much as
>possible, they don't get drunk cause they really want to see the race.

http://www.velonews.com/images/news/191.100.f.jpg

Note that this picture is taken at the WC cyclocross in January during
winter. So you sometimes may need some heart warming booze.

Heart warming is okay, but you think the guy with the open fly and his
hand in his pocket is warming his heart?

Nice shot. How about some possible captions?
"Yeah, I got pasted pretty good, but you should see da other guy!"
"Hey, Charlie, the pink earmuffs are a nice touch!"
I figure you guys can do better than that.

Steve

Quoted message said: