lacing patterns puzzle

Squat'n Dive said:

what is more bombproof for the rear wheel : a cross 2, cross 3,
anything else?

What drill? The spoke angle changes with # of spokes and # of crosses.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Squat'n Dive said:

what is more bombproof for the rear wheel : a cross 2, cross 3,
anything else?

How many spokes, what ERD Rim, and what diameter hub?

Squat'n Dive said:

what is more bombproof for the rear wheel : a cross 2, cross 3,
anything else?

I usually go cross 3 on drive side, cross 2 or 1 on the non drive
side. You can flip that if you have large hub center that can handle
the torque. Probably should have at least almost tangential spoking
on one flange(this means 3 cross on say 28 or 32 hole rim. You can go
radial or cross 1 on the other flange but only if the flange can
handle it.

the most important thing on a wheel is to try to balance the spoke
tension (this means all the spokes, drive side and non drive). Two to
one works pretty well if you have the combinations, for example a 48
hole hub, use 24 on drive side and 12 on the non drive side 36 hole
rim, 24 with 16 and 8. But also 4 to 3, 3 to 2, 5 to 3 work well
too (based on dish of 9 spd wheel a 0.6 is about perfect to get even
tension) . I recently built a 4 to 3, because it allowed 32 hole hub,
28 hole rim (both readily available), 16 spokes on drive side, 12
spokes on non-drive side. With the right pattern managed to get the
spokes within a couple mm of each other.
The Off center rims help too of course.

On Jan 2, 5:31 pm, daveornee <daveornee.32l...@no-

mx.forums.cyclingforums.com said:

Squat'n Dive Wrote:> what is more bombproof for the rear wheel : a cross 2, cross 3,

Quoted message said:

anything else?

How many spokes, what ERD Rim, and what diameter hub?

36, thinking of cxp-32 and an ultegra 6600 hub

SnD asks -

Quoted message said:

what is more bombproof for the rear wheel : a
cross 2, cross 3, anything else?

...first we should establish the anticipated type of bomb being
detonated and the proximity of the wheel to ground zero. (in meters if
it's a 29'er/700C, yards if it's anything 26", UNLESS it's a 650B than
that's measured in nanowaves) ...🙂

...I'm a KISS proponent...quality materials, workmanship and a cross 3
pattern will suffice for virtually every condition/situation PERIOD!...

Best Regards - Mike Baldwin

Squat'n Dive said:

what is more bombproof for the rear wheel : a cross 2, cross 3,
anything else?

A solid disc machined from an aluminium alloy billet.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
POST FREE OR DIE!

Michael Baldwin said:

SnD asks -

Quoted message said:

what is more bombproof for the rear wheel : a
cross 2, cross 3, anything else?

..I'm a KISS proponent...quality materials, workmanship and a cross 3
pattern will suffice for virtually every condition/situation PERIOD!...

If that's how you "keep it simple", then I recommend that you try to
lace a 20" rim to a Rohloff Speedhub using a cross-3 pattern. Your
outlook will develop some complexity!

Chalo

Squat'n Dive said:

what is more bombproof for the rear wheel : a cross 2, cross 3,
anything else?

There are several other factors that are much more influential on the
strength and durability of a wheel than lacing pattern:

- Strength of the rim section
- Number of spokes
- Spoke bracing angle
- Absolute spoke tension
- Uniformity of spoke tension
- Balance of components' strength and stiffness with each other and
with foreseeable loads

In fact, the spoke lacing pattern has relatively little effect on the
strength and durability of a wheel, though it can make a wheel easier
or harder to build and repair.

In the most general terms (and assuming low-flange hubs) cross-two
lacing works best for 24 and 28 spokes, cross-three for 32 and 36
spokes, and cross-four for 40 and 48 spokes.

Chalo

Chalo Colina said:

Michael Baldwin said:

SnD asks -

Quoted message said:

what is more bombproof for the rear wheel : a
cross 2, cross 3, anything else?

..I'm a KISS proponent...quality materials, workmanship and a cross 3
pattern will suffice for virtually every condition/situation PERIOD!...

If that's how you "keep it simple", then I recommend that you try to
lace a 20" rim to a Rohloff Speedhub using a cross-3 pattern. Your
outlook will develop some complexity!

Here is an ISO 305-mm wheel laced 3-cross:
<http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2402/2163924711_d8aa7e106d.jpg?v=0>,
<http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2249/2163925995_f7a5dd2a3b.jpg?v=0>.

If I had been able to specify lacing, I would have gone 2-cross to make
the angle of the spokes closer to normal to the spoke bed of the rim.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
POST FREE OR DIE!

Quoted message said:

If that's how you "keep it simple", then I recommend
that you try to lace a 20" rim to a
Rohloff Speedhub using a cross-3 pattern. Your outlook will develop
some complexity!

...oh you got me there you _little_ rascal! 🙂🙂🙂

...and Chalo? Since you are so anxious to "recommend", I'd like to
reciprocate the gesture and _recommend_ you look up the definition of
the word VIRTUALLY....

...I stand by my original reply to S-n-D...

Best Regards - Mike Baldwin

Chalo said:

Michael Baldwin said:

SnD asks -

Quoted message said:

what is more bombproof for the rear wheel : a
cross 2, cross 3, anything else?

..I'm a KISS proponent...quality materials, workmanship and a cross 3
pattern will suffice for virtually every condition/situation PERIOD!...

If that's how you "keep it simple", then I recommend that you try to
lace a 20" rim to a Rohloff Speedhub using a cross-3 pattern. Your
outlook will develop some complexity!

Chalo

Nah, 16 spoked wheel laced 4X ! That will teach him 😉

--
/Marten

info(apestaartje)m-gineering(punt)nl

Squat'n Dive said:

36, thinking of cxp-32 and an ultegra 6600 hub

I'd go 3x DS and 2x NDS... but really, any "normal" lacing pattern
will work well... and some abnormal ones too.

Squat'n Dive said:

On Jan 2, 5:31 pm, daveornee <daveornee.32l...@no-

mx.forums.cyclingforums.com said:

Squat'n Dive Wrote:> what is more bombproof for the rear wheel : a cross 2, cross 3,

Quoted message said:

anything else?

How many spokes, what ERD Rim, and what diameter hub?

36, thinking of cxp-32 and an ultegra 6600 hub

3-cross is normal for that spoke count. Don't build 4-cross with 36
spokes (as recommended by the legendary Eugene Sloane) - it can be done,
but the rim/spoke angle is painful. Likewise, save 2-cross for large
flange hubs and/or spoke counts of 28 and below.

Tom Sherman said:

Squat'n Dive said:

what is more bombproof for the rear wheel : a cross 2, cross 3,
anything else?

A solid disc machined from an aluminium alloy billet.

/drools at the colored anodizing potential

Tom Sherman quoted Chalo Colina and replied:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If that's how you "keep it simple", then I recommend that you try to
lace a 20" rim to a Rohloff Speedhub using a cross-3 pattern. Your
outlook will develop some complexity!

Here is an ISO 305-mm wheel laced 3-cross:
<http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2402/2163924711_d8aa7e106d.jpg?v=0>,
<http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2249/2163925995_f7a5dd2a3b.jpg?v=0>.

That wheel's not comparable to a wheel built with a Speedhub
with respect to what kinds of lacing patterns it can use.
It has more spokes, and the flange diameter is a smaller
fraction of the ERD than is the case in a 20" Speedhub wheel.

Tom Ace

Zog The Undeniable said:

Tom Sherman said:

Squat'n Dive said:

what is more bombproof for the rear wheel : a cross 2, cross 3,
anything else?

Quoted message said:

A solid disc machined from an aluminium alloy billet.

Is that what is typically seen on TT bikes? i assume the cost is the
major drawback?
what are the others?

Squat'n Dive said:

Zog The Undeniable said:

Tom Sherman said:

Squat'n Dive wrote:
> what is more bombproof for the rear wheel : a cross 2, cross 3,
> anything else?
A solid disc machined from an aluminium alloy billet.

Is that what is typically seen on TT bikes? i assume the cost is the
major drawback?
what are the others?

The discs you see in TTs are generally carbon fibre. They're still not
*that* light, but there are aerodynamic advantages, and when you can
"buy" 40 seconds' advantage for $1000, what's the point of training? ;-)

One oddity was the Tioga Tension-Disk that John Tomac used to use for
MTB, although there was a road version too. That seemed to work as a
solid disc but didn't; it was similar to a spoked wheel in principle,
with the hub being laced to the rim using a long thread of kevlar. This
were embedded in a thin non-structural disc for protection,
aerodynamics, looks, whatever. Apparently they weren't hugely reliable,
but they occasionally show up on *bay, so at least some have survived.

Michael Baldwin said:

Chalo said:

[re: cross-3 for everything]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If that's how you "keep it simple", then I recommend that you try to
lace a 20" rim to a Rohloff Speedhub using a cross-3 pattern. Your
outlook will develop some complexity!

..oh you got me there you _little_ rascal! 🙂🙂🙂

...and Chalo? Since you are so anxious to "recommend", I'd like to
reciprocate the gesture and _recommend_ you look up the definition of
the word VIRTUALLY....

I guess "virtually" to you must mean "in the case of a 26 inch or
larger rim, a low-flanged hub, and 32 or 36 spokes". Because when you
venture much outside those confines, cross-three lacing isn't
necessarily a good idea.

Chalo

Zog The Undeniable said:

Squat'n Dive said:

Zog The Undeniable said:

Tom Sherman wrote:
> Squat'n Dive wrote:
>> what is more bombproof for the rear wheel : a cross 2, cross 3,
>> anything else?
> A solid disc machined from an aluminium alloy billet.

Is that what is typically seen on TT bikes? i assume the cost is the
major drawback?
what are the others?

The discs you see in TTs are generally carbon fibre. They're still not
*that* light, but there are aerodynamic advantages, and when you can
"buy" 40 seconds' advantage for $1000, what's the point of training? ;-)

One oddity was the Tioga Tension-Disk that John Tomac used to use for
MTB, although there was a road version too. That seemed to work as a
solid disc but didn't; it was similar to a spoked wheel in principle,
with the hub being laced to the rim using a long thread of kevlar. This
were embedded in a thin non-structural disc for protection,
aerodynamics, looks, whatever. Apparently they weren't hugely reliable,
but they occasionally show up on *bay, so at least some have survived.

Sugino T-Disc were quite reliable, replacing 32 stainless spokes with
256 Kevlar spokes in a clear plastic matrix. It elegantly solved the
typical disc problem, lack of tension, in a format lighter even than 32
SS spokes.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971