L5 Improvements as quickly as possible

BullGod said:

I have the goal of pushing 5 minute intervals at 400w set for mid march. At the moment I can hold 405 for 3 minutes before I have to go below 400 to "recover"...

I am also doing 4 (3 + 3) at 385. This is not especially hard.

My FTP at the moment is about 320 - 325w.

I have 2 questions:

1) Considering the above can I realistically expect to get 400+ for 5 minutes?

2) What is the best way to train for this?

Should I be trying to hold 400+ for increasinlgly longer durations? ie start at 3, and try and work up to 5 in increments?

Should I start say at 370 for 5 minutes, repeat until "easy" and then gradually increase the watts over the weeks until it hits 400? (always using 5 mins as the duration)
Or should I try a mix of the two strategies?

any ideas?

What are your current 3MP and 5MP? (single-rep PB's)

You say you want to push 400W x 5 min intervals? But how many and with how much rest? I'd just take my current 5MP PB - estimate what I want for that metric in March and target it. That is, be simple and specific.

rmur17 said:

What are your current 3MP and 5MP? (single-rep PB's)

You say you want to push 400W x 5 min intervals? But how many and with how much rest? I'd just take my current 5MP PB - estimate what I want for that metric in March and target it. That is, be simple and specific.

Last year I did once push an avge of 433 for 5 minutes - Then i threw up and felt very bad for a few minutes.

My best for 3 this year is 410.

so you would reccommend I just try and train above 4002 for as many minutes as I can hold, repeated as often as I can?

BullGod said:

Last year I did once push an avge of 433 for 5 minutes - Then i threw up and felt very bad for a few minutes.

My best for 3 this year is 410.

so you would reccommend I just try and train above 4002 for as many minutes as I can hold, repeated as often as I can?

Well no specific recommendations - just that your make your goal specific (and attainable of course) - for starters.

Others are definitely better qualified than I to suggest L5 workouts. Currently I'm only doing what I'd call *quarter-assed L5 work and haven't ever done anything other than the std. 4-6 x (4-6 min) WI / (3-6 min) RI @ >110% FTP

* less than half-assed 😉

rmur17 said:

Well no specific recommendations - just that your make your goal specific (and attainable of course) - for starters.

Others are definitely better qualified than I to suggest L5 workouts. Currently I'm only doing what I'd call *quarter-assed L5 work and haven't ever done anything other than the std. 4-6 x (4-6 min) WI / (3-6 min) RI @ >110% FTP

* less than half-assed 😉

I don't know if you have the same issue but at this time of year I just can't be arsed to do 5 minutes of pain over and over again.....

Going to Brazil on vacation for 2 weeks tomorrow - maybe that will freshen me up to hurt myself in febraury....

Try to work within your VO2 max for long intervals so don't worry about reaching 400 watts in your intervals at this time..

This gives more time at VO2 per interval and per session and is a superior way to approach VO2 max training. Remember, it takes about 1.5 minutes before your body is even at VO2 max so short VO2 max intervals are not the best way to approach this type of training.
So the 4-6 minute range is good and 5 is ideal IMHO.
20 -30(max) total minutes is enough for most and in fact the most that most men can do correctly.

If you do short VO2 intervals then shorten the recovery periods to less than the interval length so that you reach VO2 max quickly with each interval...but I think you'll see your best progress with long intervals.

For optimal progress block train the intervals for 3 days in a row....BUT YOU MUST take at least two full recovery days after each block and probably three. Total ride volume for the week MUST be cut SIGNIFICANTLY as well.

Try
Day one.....5 X 5
Day two.....4.5 X 5
Day three...4 X 5.

1 to 1 work to rest ratio....and really easy between intervals.

If you cannot maintain the power on ALL intervals then STOP the workout...you are toast and need recovery. You may see this on the last day of the block so be aware.

Heart rate will drop on each successive day due to fatigue so be sure to ONLY train by power. Do not try to push you heart rate up to day one level.

If you do not block train them then try to do them twice a week for 5 X 5, but always after a rest day or recovery day.

Never do sprints, threshold or anaerobic intervals before VO2 training. You can do them on the same day but only if you are doing twice a day workouts in which case you should do the higher intensity work first and allow for at least 5 hours between sessions. ie in the am do sprints and then in the afternoon do your VO2 work. However, when FOCUSING on VO2 for OPTIMAL results it is usually best to just do the VO2 work and then some threshold, Tempo or L2 after.

I have my clients do most of their VO2 work on a trainer for the totally controlled environment. Cadence should be around 110. Hills are also good with a cadence of about 85.

Remember, anyone can train hard and very many do, but VERY FEW allow for optimal recovery so the body can supercompensate and get stronger. So do not get volume crazy in your training week when doing a VO2 focus.

Good luck

BullGod said:

I have the goal of pushing 5 minute intervals at 400w set for mid march. At the moment I can hold 405 for 3 minutes before I have to go below 400 to "recover"...

My FTP at the moment is about 320 - 325w.

It sounds like your AWC is quite modest right now. It's likely to fall off, as is your FTP, when you go on vacation. I think you have your work cut out for you.

What was your FTP when you did 5min at 433?

joemw said:

It sounds like your AWC is quite modest right now. It's likely to fall off, as is your FTP, when you go on vacation. I think you have your work cut out for you.

What was your FTP when you did 5min at 433?

I think it was about 345 - 350.....

Interestingly I just had 8 days off the bike due to business travel....I drank loads of beer and wine on the trip, and had a severe jet lag when I returned, complicated further by a night flight in economy.

I did some light training the day after getting back and then the next day did 100km in 3h10. Just now, less than a week after returning from abroad I broke my previous best on the 20 minute average - up from 325 to 337.....

with anything less than 3 weeks off the bike I have never really noticed much of a drop in performance. Usually if I have been going really hard a week off freshens me up and I atually make an improvement - which then usually drops off as my volume increases again. weird.

BullGod said:

I think it was about 345 - 350.....

Interestingly I just had 8 days off the bike due to business travel....I drank loads of beer and wine on the trip, and had a severe jet lag when I returned, complicated further by a night flight in economy.

I did some light training the day after getting back and then the next day did 100km in 3h10. Just now, less than a week after returning from abroad I broke my previous best on the 20 minute average - up from 325 to 337.....

with anything less than 3 weeks off the bike I have never really noticed much of a drop in performance. Usually if I have been going really hard a week off freshens me up and I atually make an improvement - which then usually drops off as my volume increases again. weird.

Am I misunderstanding something. You stated a personal best on 20 min. of 337, but you also state a previous FTP of 345. Shouldn´t your personal best at 20 min be something like370?

BullGod said:

with anything less than 3 weeks off the bike I have never really noticed much of a drop in performance. Usually if I have been going really hard a week off freshens me up and I atually make an improvement - which then usually drops off as my volume increases again. weird.

No, that's actually pretty common. The week off gives you some rest and giving you some freshness (PMC users, read as "TSB increases"😉 and then once you start consistently training again, your freshness is supressed (TSB decreases).

Steve_B said:

No, that's actually pretty common. The week off gives you some rest and giving you some freshness (PMC users, read as "TSB increases"😉 and then once you start consistently training again, your freshness is supressed (TSB decreases).

"The body responds like a Swiss watch." - Dave Harris, 2006 (or maybe 2005)

acoggan said:

"The body responds like a Swiss watch." - Dave Harris, 2006 (or maybe 2005)

Yeah, but I want my watch to go faster😉 😄 (or slower in pursuits🙂 )

My 2nd attempt at pursuit position L5 this week was worse than my 1st go last week. Not helped by having to try them on a crappy old mag resistance trainer instead road/track where I do 99.5% of my riding....

Nevermind, will persist!! The Rachel Hunter approach for me - "it won't happen overnight but it will happen"

joemw said:

It sounds like your AWC is quite modest right now. It's likely to fall off, as is your FTP, when you go on vacation. I think you have your work cut out for you.

What was your FTP when you did 5min at 433?

Shouldn't AWC go up initially when you take a break from training? Not sure of the time scale and could be wrong... anyone?

Roadie_scum said:

Shouldn't AWC go up initially when you take a break from training? Not sure of the time scale and could be wrong... anyone?

FWIW, I usually have my best 5-second power early in the calendar year when I'm the least trained. I believe that to be a common experience. FTP and neuromuscular power are opposites with most people.

Steve_B said:

FWIW, I usually have my best 5-second power early in the calendar year when I'm the least trained. I believe that to be a common experience. FTP and neuromuscular power are opposites with most people.

On average, how many sessions of NMP work do you do in season in a given time period (week/month/etc)?

Steve_B said:

FWIW, I usually have my best 5-second power early in the calendar year when I'm the least trained. I believe that to be a common experience. FTP and neuromuscular power are opposites with most people.

Well I would say that trying to NMP peaks benefits from a greater level of "freshness" (read high TSB) than does FTP but they are not mutually exclusive at all.

This season I set an NMP PB after 3 weeks off bike (illness) so was very fresh but then I totally blew my NMP PB away after several months of hard training and in a sprint at the end of a crit where I led a one man, then two man break away for the entire race. High FTP to drive a break, highest NMP ever recorded.

Nicolai Foss said:

Am I misunderstanding something. You stated a personal best on 20 min. of 337, but you also state a previous FTP of 345. Shouldn´t your personal best at 20 min be something like370?

My PB for winter and my PB for July are usually about 20-30w different.

Alex Simmons said:

This season I set an NMP PB after 3 weeks off bike (illness) so was very fresh but then I totally blew my NMP PB away after several months of hard training and in a sprint at the end of a crit where I led a one man, then two man break away for the entire race. High FTP to drive a break, highest NMP ever recorded.

Interesting that you were able to get a PB at the end of a hard (I'm guessing it was hard, since you rode a break the whole time) race. Personally, I've never gotten withing 200W of my all-time peak power at the end of *any* race. In fact in most races the highest peak/5 sec power doesn't come at the final sprint, but rather at the start of some some attack/bridge earlier on in the race.

rr9876 said:

Interesting that you were able to get a PB at the end of a hard (I'm guessing it was hard, since you rode a break the whole time) race. Personally, I've never gotten withing 200W of my all-time peak power at the end of *any* race. In fact in most races the highest peak/5 sec power doesn't come at the final sprint, but rather at the start of some some attack/bridge earlier on in the race.

TSB +12 😉

Since we'd established a 40 second lead, we could relax a bit on the last lap, enabling a fair one on one sprint dual. It was close. I posted a pic of the ride file on my blog entry here. I've set NMP peaks in training at track, in middle of crits, end of crits, standing starts, track accelerations (not listed in chronological order). Basically I have been able to generate high end NMP (for me) in a range of situations. But I do have some broad patterns as well.

Motivation of the situation seems to have a fair influence on my NMP.

Alex Simmons said:

Yeah, but I want my watch to go faster😉 😄 (or slower in pursuits🙂 )

My 2nd attempt at pursuit position L5 this week was worse than my 1st go last week. Not helped by having to try them on a crappy old mag resistance trainer instead road/track where I do 99.5% of my riding....

Nevermind, will persist!! The Rachel Hunter approach for me - "it won't happen overnight but it will happen"

Alex,
FWIW, I find that my PE just sky-rockets when I attempt to ride hard in the aero position on the trainer (CT in my case). I didn't try to figure out why but decided to simply stop doing 'em that way and wait 'til I get outdoors. No point in needless suffering IMO.

Thinking back, it could have something to do with less cooling with less area exposed to the fan ... or perhaps just taint discomfort?