Kryptonite Locks safe?

"Thomas Schmidt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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Sorry, but this is useless blah blah.

If good advice is useless "blah, blah, blah" then maybe
you need to ask

about

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this in alt.locksmithing instead. (Yes, it exists, as
does alt.life.locksmithing)

Steve "full of blah, blah, blah..."

What Monique said was NOT good advice, it was useless
because she did not answer my question and just wrote
something general instead.

Dude, you're an idiot. Why ask for advice, just to
discredit it?

Fine, she didn't tell you specifically that "Lock brand A is
better than Lock Brand B", that's irrelavent. Like buying
bikes, cars, stereos, the more you pay, the better the
quality (generally.) Monique was nice enough to take it a
step farther an explain that "No lock is safe", and that if
you're really worried about your bike, don't leave it alone.

If on the other hand, you can handle the slight chance of
your bike being scoffed, then buy a good quality bike lock.
Kryptonite is one of the best, however I use a plain old 0.5
Meter long piece of hardened stainless steel chain. Never
had a problem there, in fact, if you I keep the chain tight,
it would make it really hard to handle and saw.

Hope this helps enough to avoid your scorn.

Alpha Male

Kamus of Kadizhar <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

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Reco Diver said:

Urban legend. Freon is a simple CFC. The Dupont
trademarked "Freon" is/was used as a refrigerant, but
even submerging metals in it has no effect on the
structure of the metal.

T'aint the structure.

If you aren't altering the crystal structure, what effect
does freezing have on steel?

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It's the fact that when you release a compressed gas (any
gas) the temp drops.

Charles law, Boyles Law, the Third perfect gas law, all help
define the adiabatic change in a gas. But Freon is a CFC
that is shipped at relatively low pressure. In a mechanical
refrigerator Freon is compressed to ~10 kg/sq. cm then
allowed to vaporize at ~1 kg/sq. cm. The result is a
refrigerant at -18oC. -18oC is hardly cold enough to effect
a hardened steel shackle.

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Freon just happens to be very good at that.

So is ammonia, which Freon was created to replace.

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So, take a compressed gas, release it with metal in the
way, metal freezes. Freeze metal enough, it becomes
brittle.

That would be a change in the stucture of the metal ...
thought you said "T'aint the structure." The problem is
freezing the metal "enough."

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Tap it with a hammer, it shatters.

Check the MSDS for Freon (Freon 12, Freon 22, Freon 115, and
Dupont Freon 502). They are cfc's shipped at less than 5
atm. With a boiling point of ~ -30 C at 1 atm, the release
of presure is not great enough to effect the crystal
structure of a ~1/2 inch chunk of hardened steel. I have
worked doing cutting and welding at -40 degrees (my favorite
working temp), with many blends of steel, and none of them
became overly brittle, or brittle to the point of failure
with a blow from a hammer.

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IIRC, hardened steel is especially prone to this; this is
apparently why some locks have a mild steel 'sheath'
around a hardened steel core.

Nothing to do with Freon or its safety; you could use CO2
for a demo. Heck, have you never had a valve freeze after
using one of those CO2 cartridges?

CO2 in that application is shipped under much higher
pressure, and has a boiling point of -78 C (1 atm). Still,
you can spray a lock with CO2, you can pack it in "Dry Ice",
you can leave it over night, take it out hit it with a
hammer and the lock won't break. I believe you will find
that liquid nitrogen has a boiling point close to ~ -195 C
and a freezing point at just over ~ -200 C ... that might be
cold enough.

<snip>

R

Reco Diver said:

CO2 in that application is shipped under much higher
pressure, and has a boiling point of -78 C (1 atm). Still,
you can spray a lock with CO2, you can pack it in "Dry
Ice", you can leave it over night, take it out hit it with
a hammer and the lock won't break. I believe you will find
that liquid nitrogen has a boiling point close to ~ -195 C
and a freezing point at just over ~ -200 C ... that might
be cold enough.

This is getting waaay OT but you got me curious. I'm
definitely gonna try to research this.... Another way to
fritter away the time when it's raining....

--Kamus

Kamus of Kadizhar <[email hidden]> wrote in
:"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

So, take a compressed gas, release it with metal in the
way, metal freezes. Freeze metal enough, it becomes
brittle. Tap it with a hammer, it shatters.

IIRC, hardened steel is especially prone to this; this is
apparently why some locks have a mild steel 'sheath'
around a hardened steel core.

Nothing to do with Freon or its safety; you could use CO2
for a demo. Heck, have you never had a valve freeze after
using one of those CO2 cartridges?

Some googling - turns out that the freezing method has
dropped in popularity; I guess because now you need a
license for Freon and locks have become less susceptible.

--Kamus

Have you ever actually seen this done? I doubt it. I have
attempted just that, and even a ulock immersed in liquid
nitrogen had no effect to a 20 pound sledge. Try it
yourself, and realize that everything you read on the
internet is not necessarily fact....

Pistof said:

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I had a Kryptonite New Yorker Chain (with old style EV
Disc lock) and it

was

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picked while I was at college. The bike was subsequently
stolen, of course. If you must buy a lock, make sure it's
the so-called 'ace-2' version.

Easy pick'ins, huh? That sucks. I bet the theif had one
hell of a grin on his face riding off with your bike. So
did Kryptonite replace it or what???

Dave

I wrote a complaint to Kryptonite's "Complaint Department."
You need to have one of these when you're a lock company...
it gives your customer a place to vent his anger. They
responded in a very kind and compassionate manner... I was
extremely impressed. They even offered to replace the lock
(note: not the bike, since the lock was not pried or broken
with force) free of charge. I never took them up on the
offer, though. I don't have any use for locks anymore. I'm
afraid if I had one, I'd be tempted to use
it.

John M

"Thomas Schmidt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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Hi,

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Do at least the newer ones feature this "ace-2" lock or do
I have to replace them all?

Thank you for your advice, Thomas

All this lock-picking talk has me worried about my
"impervious" NYChain w/EV Disc lock that I'm going to be
using to keep my Cross-Check secure on campus. Now, I'm
pretty sure I'm going to add a MasterLock combination lock
to the mix. I don't want to futz with two locks three or
four times a day, but I also want to keep my bike...

Ugh. If I ever catch a bike thief in the act...

Chris (had an X-Caliber picked last year)

<big snip>

Not to be rude, but please consider that you may be
talking to others with science degrees before you start
*sounding* smart. 😉

cc

Kamus of Kadizhar said:

This is getting waaay OT but you got me curious. I'm
definitely gonna try to research this.... Another way to
fritter away the time when it's raining....

The "apparently" straight scoop on the Freon thing:

Long ago, when Kryptonite locks first came out, the shackles
were overhardened, making them vulnerable to Freon/dry ice
and a hammer.

That has been addressed and the method no longer works.

--Kamus

cc said:

<big snip>

Not to be rude, but please consider that you may be
talking to others with science degrees before you start
*sounding* smart. 😉

You mean smart enough to quote at least SOMETHING so the
reader knows WTF you're talking about?

Bill "oh, wait...you did say science degree" S.

"cc" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

<big snip>

Not to be rude, but please consider that you may be
talking to others with science degrees before you start
*sounding* smart. 😉

cc

Sing out when you finish grad school at the farm, and gain
10 or more years of real world experience.

R

171 University Ave., Palo Alto, Ca.

Nice shop.

<snip>

I wasn't trying to throw around degrees, and certainly not
start a pissing match, but some of the stuff you said just
doesn't make sense. I certainly don't know anything about
welding, I'll admit that. I do know a bit about chemistry
and physics, however.

My point was that it is possible to weaken some steels to
the point of breaking, should you cool them and strike them
quickly enough. I'll admit that it would be very difficult
with Freon, but possible with some steels. I'm sure you are
aware there are many varieties of steel.

cc

"cc" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

<big snip> [... of all context ...]

Not to be rude, but please consider that you may be
talking to others with science degrees before you start
*sounding* smart. 😉

cc

Well, maybe you should have thought of that before (re-)
posting this urban legend to a newsgroup full of people who
spend a larger than average amount of time thinking about
metallurgy.

Of course, it's difficult to figure out exactly what
you're talking about when you don't quote the post you're
replying to.

CC (Not talking to myself...)

<it all disappeared in one fell snip>

Quoted message said:

Of course, it's difficult to figure out exactly what
you're talking about when you don't quote the post you're
replying to.

CC (Not talking to myself...)

Was replying to Reco Diver.

cc said:

<it all disappeared in one fell snip>

Quoted message said:

Of course, it's difficult to figure out exactly what
you're talking about when you don't quote the post you're
replying to.

CC (Not talking to myself...)

Was replying to Reco Diver.

how is anyone supposed to know that if you don't quote
properly?

penny

cc said:

<snip>

I wasn't trying to throw around degrees, and certainly not
start a pissing match, but some of the stuff you said just
doesn't make sense. I certainly don't know anything about
welding, I'll admit that. I do know a bit about chemistry
and physics, however.

And yet you still can't quote worth a pee-pee.

Bill "who's you and what did s/he say?" S.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I wasn't trying to throw around degrees, and certainly
not start a pissing match, but some of the stuff you
said just doesn't make sense. I certainly don't know
anything about welding, I'll admit that. I do know a bit
about chemistry and physics, however.

And yet you still can't quote worth a pee-pee.

Bill "who's you and what did s/he say?" S.

Sorry, thought it was obvious . . sheesh !

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<it all disappeared in one fell snip>

Quoted message said:

Of course, it's difficult to figure out exactly what
you're talking about when you don't quote the post
you're replying to.

CC (Not talking to myself...)

Was replying to Reco Diver.

how is anyone supposed to know that if you don't quote
properly?

penny

magic, mmmmmkay?

cc

"cc" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

<big snip>

Not to be rude, but please consider that you may be
talking to others with science degrees before you start
*sounding* smart. 😉

Not to be rude, but could you learn how to quote?

See up there, at the very top? That's called an
"attribution." That way, folks might know exact to whom I am
responding. You know, those folks who might not be using a
threaded newsreader. And quoting some of the material to
which you are responding also helps with context.

This newsgroup thingy is all about communication, blah,
blah, blah...
--
Jonesy "curmudgeon"

"Jonesy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"cc" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<big snip>

Not to be rude, but please consider that you may be
talking to others

with

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

science degrees before you start *sounding* smart. 😉

Not to be rude, but could you learn how to quote?

See up there, at the very top? That's called an
"attribution." That way, folks might know exact to whom I
am responding. You know, those folks who might not be
using a threaded newsreader. And quoting some of the
material to which you are responding also helps with
context.

This newsgroup thingy is all about communication, blah,
blah, blah...
--

Thanks. That was constructive AND informative.

"S o r n i" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

cc said:

<big snip>

Not to be rude, but please consider that you may be
talking to others with science degrees before you start
*sounding* smart. 😉

You mean smart enough to quote at least SOMETHING so the
reader knows WTF you're talking about?

Bill "oh, wait...you did say science degree" S.

Give him a break ... he was smart enough not to nail me for
my "40 degrees."

Grad degree in Chemistry of Chem Eng would be my guess.

First, because he called me on the carpet for quoting
MSDS's, he's a chemist of some flavor. Second, he said
"science degrees" ... that smacks of grad student.

Personally, my graduate work was in spatial distribution
theory, and while I passed Pchem a couple of decades ago,
my reliance on MSDS's comes from marine welding classes
and salvage operations (which I was involved in after
grad school).

Sadly, I was waiting for the "science minded" to nail me of
my favorite working temp.

R

If you don't put that grad degree to work you might just end
up like Doc V.