Kilowatt club

AndROOb said:

After months of attempting to produce 1000w, I eventually did it today, only for 2 seconds, but it made me smile 😄

Congrats.😄 Like you, I struggle to get over 1K. I have actually computed my torque/rpm curve to identify where I generate my highest power (~135rpm). So, when I want to get over 1K I start ~100rpm and gradually bring it up to ~125rpm then go as hard as I can to 150rpm. I use the same strategy in RR sprints. I try to gear myself to be in the 125 vicinity when it matters.

AndROOb said:

Also a question for RD, and others who might have some feedback; If you're out on a long training ride, where you can incorporate several levels of power training, ie L2-L7, is there a good/optimum time ratio to work within each level?

It depends on the course. I have only one course where I can get almost 100% L4 time. This is a long, gradual upgrade (1.6%), upwind (usually), straight road that happens to be within 2 miles of my house. That's where I go for long L4 rides (up to 90 mins). But, my regular training ride (60 miles, ~3.5 hours) has only two legitimate L4 sements (~15min and ~25min). So, I have a very hard time getting my L4 ratio up as high as I would like. These rides end up being about 50%/25%/25% for L4/L5/L6. L7 is hardly measurable, just 3-5 full power 15-20s sprints in the last few miles. I never set goals for L1-L3, but collectively they end up being ~50% of the ride. And, I have the most advanced technology in the world (I think) for planning my rides around specific goals.

AndROOb said:

... ie L2-L7, is there a good/optimum time ratio to work within each level?

Pyramid sessions. There was a great article on the ABCC site (okay Brits, chime in).

Over a long ride, start with a few sprints. Then some L6 AC intervals. Followed by L5..then wrap it up with a 20 min TT. Cool down well. Short sets with full recovery between each set before moving down a level.

AndROOb said:

After months of attempting to produce 1000w, I eventually did it today, only for 2 seconds, but it made me smile 😄

Congrats bro. What's you next max goal?

Meek One said:

Congrats bro. What's you next max goal?

Well, I have one goal(for 2 seasons now) to go under the hour for a 25mile(40km) TT, and I have realised that I can achieve this with >240w. My PB at the moment is 1.00.03(AP: 239w)😠 , so close and yet so far, but having hit the 1000w for 2 seconds, I want to hold it for 5 seconds, and then longer.
I also hope to get my 5 minute power up to 310-320w, and that currently lies at 302w. My anaerobic capacity seems pretty good so with a few efforts I think this is possible.
I'm hoping that by raising the roof on my power for shorter periods, it should help in raising my power for longer time periods, any thoughts on this?

So Meek One, how are you with your goals and targets?

AndROOb said:

Well, I have one goal(for 2 seasons now) to go under the hour for a 25mile(40km) TT, and I have realised that I can achieve this with >240w. My PB at the moment is 1.00.03(AP: 239w)😠 , so close and yet so far, but having hit the 1000w for 2 seconds, I want to hold it for 5 seconds, and then longer.
I also hope to get my 5 minute power up to 310-320w, and that currently lies at 302w. My anaerobic capacity seems pretty good so with a few efforts I think this is possible.
I'm hoping that by raising the roof on my power for shorter periods, it should help in raising my power for longer time periods, any thoughts on this?

So Meek One, how are you with your goals and targets?

Go to a L4 and L5 focussed program. Still do sprints on a warm-up day or during endurance rides; but spend some aerobic time over your TT power(L5 V02Max intervals) and things will improve.

AndROOb said:

So Meek One, how are you with your goals and targets?

I think I am not putting my power down properly. I think some power is going up and not down. Eventually I expect my 1 sec to be over 1750 with dreams of 2000+. Two of my buddies are over 2000 (max 1 sec)...even my little, lightweight brother threw down 1650 for 5 secs...

I'll 'find' my power soon. Everyone is baffled at my lack of dyno power. I am gym strong and have a good vertical, which would indicate power. But like I said I seem to have to work on my on-bike mechanics. We'll see since now I am training with my little bro. I'll post numbers in a few weeks of specific training...

Wish me luck.

Meek One said:

I think I am not putting my power down properly. I think some power is going up and not down. Eventually I expect my 1 sec to be over 1750 with dreams of 2000+. Two of my buddies are over 2000 (max 1 sec)...even my little, lightweight brother threw down 1650 for 5 secs...

I'll 'find' my power soon. Everyone is baffled at my lack of dyno power. I am gym strong and have a good vertical, which would indicate power. But like I said I seem to have to work on my on-bike mechanics. We'll see since now I am training with my little bro. I'll post numbers in a few weeks of specific training...

Wish me luck.

I dont know what your bodyweight is, or your lightweight brother's is, but at my weight of 69kg, 1650w is 'world class' level(according to my power profile figures). I guess is all relative with power/weigh ratios.
The interesting thing that I have noticed is that there is certainly an optimal pedal stroke required to put down high power and sustain it, and I am only just tuning into this stroke.

Good luck in your quest, Meek One.

AndROOb said:

I dont know what your bodyweight is, or your lightweight brother's is, but at my weight of 69kg, 1650w is 'world class' level(according to my power profile figures). I guess is all relative with power/weigh ratios.
The interesting thing that I have noticed is that there is certainly an optimal pedal stroke required to put down high power and sustain it, and I am only just tuning into this stroke.

Good luck in your quest, Meek One.

One is world class, others are competitive nationally, so I have relatively high standards. My bro weighs maybe 76-80kg. For what it's worth, I am slowly dropping pounds too, to help my sprint. 🙂

Spunout said:

Go to a L4 and L5 focussed program. Still do sprints on a warm-up day or during endurance rides; but spend some aerobic time over your TT power(L5 V02Max intervals) and things will improve.

The thing is, this is just what I was doing until the middle of April, then I started Hunter Allen's 8 week TT focused program. 6 weeks in, during a mock TT(within the program), I did the TT that got me the 1.00.03 time. I finished the program 2 weeks later, and have been at 95% until about a week ago. I have been pre-occupied (and possibly mentally distracted)with the organisation of a national series road race, which by the way, went very well, but I digress.

I am wondering whether to go back and focus, as before, on L4/5 work as you mentioned, or whether to use the FTP improvement training guide, as detailed in the bible, I mean power book. Your thoughts?

AndROOb said:

I am wondering whether to go back and focus, as before, on L4/5 work as you mentioned, or whether to use the FTP improvement training guide, as detailed in the bible, I mean power book. Your thoughts?

What sort of weekly volume (minutes) do you do in L4/L5/L6?

RapDaddyo said:

I have actually computed my torque/rpm curve to identify where I generate my highest power (~135rpm).

Which is pretty typical, at least when rested.

RapDaddyo said:

when I want to get over 1K I start ~100rpm and gradually bring it up to ~125rpm then go as hard as I can to 150rpm. I use the same strategy in RR sprints. I try to gear myself to be in the 125 vicinity when it matters.

Since the speed of muscle contraction slows rapidly with fatigue, you might consider using a slightly larger gear when sprinting at the end of a race, esp. if you're not fully recovered from any prior efforts when the sprint starts, and/or if the race is sufficiently long/hard to leave you somewhat tired no matter how much recovery you get before sprinting.

acoggan said:

Since the speed of muscle contraction slows rapidly with fatigue, you might consider using a slightly larger gear when sprinting at the end of a race, esp. if you're not fully recovered from any prior efforts when the sprint starts, and/or if the race is sufficiently long/hard to leave you somewhat tired no matter how much recovery you get before sprinting.

Does that mean that when one is fatigued one can generally produce more power at a lower cadence than when rested? So, if my peak power when rested is ~135rpm, it might be, say, ~120rpm when fatigued at the end of a RR? I should test that, since I will always be fatigued when I need my sprint (e.g., end of a crit or RR). Thanks for the tip.

RapDaddyo said:

Does that mean that when one is fatigued one can generally produce more power at a lower cadence than when rested? So, if my peak power when rested is ~135rpm, it might be, say, ~120rpm when fatigued at the end of a RR? I should test that, since I will always be fatigued when I need my sprint (e.g., end of a crit or RR). Thanks for the tip.

You won't produce as much power when you're a bit tired, but your best bet will be to use a slightly lower rpm than you probably would during your testing done from rest.

Which goes back to what I was saying previously about testing 5s power from rest vs. from some fatigue, in order to better gauge your performance within most races.

Virtually all of the training sprints I do for criterium sprinting are not done from rest. What works best doesn't always feel the best, in training.

For points race sprints we have to be able to produce 130+ rpm's for the sprints because we can't shift gears to get the speeds we need. Painful training.

RapDaddyo said:

What sort of weekly volume (minutes) do you do in L4/L5/L6?

L4 for the last month has been a 25 mile TT at the weekend, followed by a 10 or a 25 midweek. This was not that dis-similar during the TT training plan.

L5: I have started to re-address L5 recently, as I found that the 'plan' tended to address L6 more regularly. There was some L5 work, but not much. So now, I plan to do a couple of 6x4 or 5x5 sessions weekly.

L6: As mentioned above, I have been doing plenty, from 3 minute sessions at 130% ftp, 2 minute sessions at 150% ftp, and 1 minute sessions at 170-180% ftp. Weekly total ~ 1 hr. I plan to continue using these but mainly for pre-race day tune-ups.

AndROOb said:

L4 for the last month has been a 25 mile TT at the weekend, followed by a 10 or a 25 midweek. This was not that dis-similar during the TT training plan.

L5: I have started to re-address L5 recently, as I found that the 'plan' tended to address L6 more regularly. There was some L5 work, but not much. So now, I plan to do a couple of 6x4 or 5x5 sessions weekly.

L6: As mentioned above, I have been doing plenty, from 3 minute sessions at 130% ftp, 2 minute sessions at 150% ftp, and 1 minute sessions at 170-180% ftp. Weekly total ~ 1 hr. I plan to continue using these but mainly for pre-race day tune-ups.

So, my interpretation is that you're doing 1.5-2 hrs L4, 0 L5, 1 hr L6. Total L4-L6 ~2.5-3 hrs. Does that sound right?

As you may know from some of my posts in other threads, I have come around to summarizing my training with one set of statistics -- total duration by level, L4-L7. In fact, I wrote a program to parse my ride files for exactly this purpose. My first priority is a grand total volume and my second priority is the mix. I have found by trial and error that <3 hrs grand total results in small (if any) increases in power at any point on my MP/duration curve. Of course, in saying that I have never put less than 50% of my total volume in L4. So, would my VO2MAX and/or AWC increase significantly if I did 3 hrs/wk at L5/L6 exclusively? Probably, but I have never tried it. My gains start to kick in between 3-6 hours and >6 hours they really kick in. My current regimen is ~8 hrs L4, 1.5-2 hrs L5, 1.5-2 hrs L6, ~10mins L7 per week. Now, that's a lot of volume and my rides have to be extremely efficient to attain those stats. I just don't waste any unnecessary time in L1-L3. Everybody wants to talk about the mix as though that's the only thing required to increase power. I think one has to focus on volume as well. I actually think total volume is more important than the mix.

RapDaddyo said:

So, my interpretation is that you're doing 1.5-2 hrs L4, 0 L5, 1 hr L6. Total L4-L6 ~2.5-3 hrs. Does that sound right?

As you may know from some of my posts in other threads, I have come around to summarizing my training with one set of statistics -- total duration by level, L4-L7. In fact, I wrote a program to parse my ride files for exactly this purpose. My first priority is a grand total volume and my second priority is the mix. I have found by trial and error that <3 hrs grand total results in small (if any) increases in power at any point on my MP/duration curve. Of course, in saying that I have never put less than 50% of my total volume in L4. So, would my VO2MAX and/or AWC increase significantly if I did 3 hrs/wk at L5/L6 exclusively? Probably, but I have never tried it. My gains start to kick in between 3-6 hours and >6 hours they really kick in. My current regimen is ~8 hrs L4, 1.5-2 hrs L5, 1.5-2 hrs L6, ~10mins L7 per week. Now, that's a lot of volume and my rides have to be extremely efficient to attain those stats. I just don't waste any unnecessary time in L1-L3. Everybody wants to talk about the mix as though that's the only thing required to increase power. I think one has to focus on volume as well. I actually think total volume is more important than the mix.

Then I must start extending my volume, at a rate that wont kill me, and base it around a ratio of 4:1:1 in respect to L4:L5:L6, and add a spoon full of L7, and I might start seeing some noticeable results. Would I be right in saying that the more volume you train at a given intensity, the quicker you will become used to that intensity, that in turn enables you to start training at a higher intensity?

AndROOb said:

Then I must start extending my volume, at a rate that wont kill me, and base it around a ratio of 4:1:1 in respect to L4:L5:L6, and add a spoon full of L7, and I might start seeing some noticeable results. Would I be right in saying that the more volume you train at a given intensity, the quicker you will become used to that intensity, that in turn enables you to start training at a higher intensity?

I think the ratio (mix) is ideally a function of three factors: (1) where you are in the annual training cycle; (2) what your target events are; and (3) what your training has been. I put a lot of emphasis on L4 and L5 throughout the year because my FTP is important to every single one of my target events. In fact, I care more about my 2hr power than my 1hr power. I don't put much emphasis on L6 until ~6 weeks before a target event because I think AWC responds quickly to training and thus I can leave it until closer to an event. That being said, I think AWC is huge (mega-huge) for all mass-start races and that when a rider gets dropped and is bewildered because his NP at that point was well within his FTP, the first thing I would do is a match analysis of his ride to see how many matches he burned up to that point and especially in the 5-10 minutes immediately preceding getting dropped.

As to getting used to a given intensity with more volume, yes, that does happen to some extent. More importantly, the physiological adaptation (over time) enables one to ride at a given intensity longer. What happens (to me, at least) is that when I initially ride at a demanding intensity (e.g., 300W) my quads start squawking almost immediately. The desire to back off and give them some relief is strong and continuous. But, after awhile, after days and hours at that intensity, they start squawking later and later and later and I'm able to ride for a very long duration. I get to the point where I look down after many minutes and say, "When are you boys going to start squawking?" Unfortunately, that's when I know I need to increase the intensity. Ugh! Here we go again.😄

i'm in to 🙂 today during a short but high intensity group ride we had a couple sprints, 1st one i had 1058w for 5s, tapering a bit to 1038w for 10s, i'm 23, 73kg

Hah! Add me to the list! I got a max on the PTap cpu of 1011 today. This is definitely the first time I've seen that go into four digits. It was probably only a single sample, and Andy has pointed out the "precession" effect on PowerTaps makes single-sample maxes suspect, but I'm counting it...