Irrefutable Truths and Cycling Training

1st Commandment:
Ride your bike, and you will get faster...

tonyzackery said:

1st Commandment:
Ride your bike, and you will get faster...

Heh, does it?? :-) i have some gf's that are permanently stuck in z1 it seems & they go backwards on every climb we do.

irrefutable truth in cycling? here's one: EPO works! 😄😄

truth is i am in the 'it depends' camp these days. why?

b'cause as i see it, it mirrors what in math is called a sextic equation (one with 6 variables). sometimes you can solve them but many times no.

in the real world think of all the things that differ among riders:

age
genetics
physiology (vo2max, slow twitch/fast twitch composition, etc)
goals
(available) training time
consistentcy
dedication
skills
diet
rest

i doubt you will ever meet anyone that has the same variables you have. meaning you & i & anyone else we meet will not - and probably shouldn't - train the same exact way. that being the case there will always be a case of it depends.

the stuff i see as irrefutable? the physics & biology of bicycling - such as less weight on a hill climb = more speed (all else equal). lower cda = more speed on the flats (all else equal). anaerobic glycolysis gets you 2 net ATP, aerobic glycolysis gets you more like 36 ATP. that's diesel vs. high octane :-)

also the basic principles seem irrefutable like: specificity & overload.

tonyzackery said:

1st Commandment:
Ride your bike, and you will get faster...

Or phrase it in the negative and then you'll get an absolute:

'Don't ride your bike and you won't get faster on the bike'😎

Gotta go with the 'it depends' group as do most things in life...

-Dave

daveryanwyoming said:

Or phrase it in the negative and then you'll get an absolute:

'Don't ride your bike and you won't get faster on the bike'😎

Gotta go with the 'it depends' group as do most things in life...

-Dave

So, IYO (in your opinion) there are no "irrefutable truths" as they pertain to increasing endurance (speed AND duration) cycling performance??

tonyzackery said:

So, IYO (in your opinion) there are no "irrefutable truths" as they pertain to increasing endurance (speed AND duration) cycling performance??

I suppose their are some basic 'truths' but those that are beyond refute are so trivial as to hardly be worth mentioning (like the example above) or so general that they're subject to interpretation.

I could probably come up with a list that I believe to be true but I'd bet folks could strike them down one by one with exceptions. Still it's those beliefs that guide my training and are the filter through which I evaluate alternative training philosophies.

I think there are some physiology 'truths' or at least 'truths' to the limit of current knowledge and these can lead us to train one way or another. And there are some physics 'truths' that dictate how fast we can go on the bike and these can lead us to train in particular ways.

Bottom line is that there are many approaches to training and many coaching philosophies and programs that have yielded race winning cyclists at all levels. Did some of those athletes succeed in spite of poor training or are there just a whole lot of ways to skin the training cat?

-Dave

^^Well, I guess there with the absence of 'irrefutable truth' the debate(s) will rage on...heck, you gotta wonder what some people would do with their days if they didn't have this medium (this forum in particular) within which to wax philosophic...

With that written:

2nd Commandment - Overload + Rest + Proper Nutrition = Supracompensation

daveryanwyoming said:

I suppose their are some basic 'truths' but those that are beyond refute are so trivial as to hardly be worth mentioning....

Yep. People don't come here looking for truth, as the basic truth of most things is blatantly obvious. People come here looking for "better," "best," "optimal," "most effective," or some other way of looking "beyond the truth" that we all can see. There are probably some great secrets to be found out there, but there's also plenty of snake oil.

Think about how many people are *searching* for a way to lose weight. What is there to look for?

Every workout should have a specific purpose. (hat tip to Jack Daniels)

frenchyge said:

Yep. People don't come here looking for truth, as the basic truth of most things is blatantly obvious.

Negative. I think some people do come to this forum seeking information that could be considered "truth" - something definitive, something concrete, some method that is without question. There are many people out there that don't have all the "blatantly obvious" information that you seem to already possess...

Irrefutable Truth:
-your potential ability & ultimate performance ceiling in cycling are genetically based
- how close you get to that ceiling is a function of consistency (or lack of), training time & training method

i gather people come here for all sorts of reasons & who am i to pigeonhole them into one or the other category? i have asked hella questions here - some were does this work (yes/no), others were how/why, others were maybe nonsensical

example questions you see asked:

will 2 x 20 @ 91% of FTP raise threshold? (this is simple yes/no format - aka close-ended question)

what is the best way to raise threshold? (not so simple - open ended question).

another example:

what will get you closest to your ultimate potential in cycling given unlimited training time........

LSD? SST? willet style 4 hrs/week @ 20MMP? HIT?

tonyzackery said:

Negative. I think some people do come to this forum seeking information that could be considered "truth" - something definitive, something concrete, some method that is without question. There are many people out there that don't have all the "blatantly obvious" information that you seem to already possess...

Really? Someone who's ever ridden a bike needs to come to an internet forum to realize your commandment #1? Sorry if it sounds elitist, but that was blatantly obvious to me long before I came here. That's not to pick on your commandment, but rather that I understood from childhood that doing something tended to make me better at it.

Yes, people would like to hear that something is the true, best way to train..... but what that comprises is frequently and repeatedly debated. So, I wouldn't consider most of the advice we throw around here to be irrefutable.

Here's a truth:
There are many myths about cycling training.

frenchyge said:

Really? Someone who's ever ridden a bike needs to come to an internet forum to realize your commandment #1? Sorry if it sounds elitist, but that was blatantly obvious to me long before I came here. That's not to pick on your commandment, but rather that I understood from childhood that doing something tended to make me better at it.

Yes, people would like to hear that something is the true, best way to train..... but what that comprises is frequently and repeatedly debated. So, I wouldn't consider most of the advice we throw around here to be irrefutable.

LOL! With over 4000 posts, I'd be willing to wager you personally at some point replied to a poster who obviously had no clue as to how to get faster on their bike. Further, with all the conjecture as how to get faster (weight lifting, core training, cross training, etc...) I think Commandment #1 is apropos.

The fact that you knew something before you got here is irrelevant to all the others that aren't you - who knew?! It's quite apparent that you'd be better entertained/served on another thread seeing as this one does nothing for you...

tonyzackery said:

LOL! With over 4000 posts, I'd be willing to wager you personally at some point replied to a poster who obviously had no clue as to how to get faster on their bike.

I've responded with "just ride more" when I felt that people either just needed encouragement or needed a dose of the obvious to help them refocus on the basics, but my experience has been that even those folks have already tried some degree of "riding their bike to get faster at riding their bike" and are here looking for something more. I'm not sure what we're disagreeing about here. 😕

tonyzackery said:

Further, with all the conjecture as how to get faster (weight lifting, core training, cross training, etc...) I think Commandment #1 is apropos.

Sure, I don't have a problem with what you see as the basic tenet of endurance training, and I think the principle there is general enough to be expanded to most anything else -- ie, doing something helps make you better at doing it.

tonyzackery said:

It's quite apparent that you'd be better entertained/served on another thread seeing as this one does nothing for you...

Possibly, if something else comes up. My post was mainly in agreement with Dave's comments above it (ie, anything that is beyond refute is readily apparent to all (==> blatantly obvious), otherwise there'd be someone out there denying it), and I didn't really have much else to add. That you chose to respond to my comments led me to believe there was something about them that you wanted to discuss, and that is the only reason I'm still posting here. Cheers.

Dancen has made some good, topical posts to discuss, for those so inclined....

I am sorry I really do not understand what is so tough about this. First the blinded by science and now the philosophy. I mean come on...

Pick a training program and go as far as you can with it and than make adjustments. If the adjustments work stick with it till you max out and than another adjustment.

What is the big mystery?

The reason most are hear is to get an idea what adjustments to make to their program and hopefully see improvements in getting towards their goal.

It applies to any level of athlete, weekend warrior to elite.

-js

What is irrefutable is the fact there is much more brain energy and time spent trying to make cycling training more complicated/convoluted than simpler...My intent with this thread was to explore the possibility that there may be tenets to cycling training that a newbie could rely upon as gospel - across the board...

Even the coaches/experts don't dare put something out there for fear of the anticipated debate...interesting...

jsirabella said:

I am sorry I really do not understand what is so tough about this. First the blinded by science and now the philosophy. I mean come on...

Pick a training program and go as far as you can with it and than make adjustments. If the adjustments work stick with it till you max out and than another adjustment.

What is the big mystery?

The reason most are hear is to get an idea what adjustments to make to their program and hopefully see improvements in getting towards their goal.

It applies to any level of athlete, weekend warrior to elite.

-js

Not following the reason for your angst, JS.

It's understood you've acquired a level of knowledge and now can 'see through the fog' much more clearly than when you started training to improve your cycling performance, but that about those new to the sport?

There's a place for simplification - and that's the purpose of this thread. I've simplified my training (less variety of intervals) immensely over the past year. It's (training to improve performance) just not as complicated as some would lead me to believe...

tonyzackery said:

Is there such a thing where it pertains to increasing cycling performance? With the amount of debate going on concerning training philosophies, power and otherwise, I'm interested in hearing if such a truth, or truths, actually exist...sometimes I have to wonder...do I resign myself to accepting that nebulous of all answers - "it depends"?...

I think there is only one irrefutable truth when it comes to athletic performance. If one wants to improve athletic performance it will require a certain amount of training. The controversy arises when it comes to the nuances of how much and what kind of training to do to "optimize" the benefits of that time spent.

tonyzackery said:

Even the coaches/experts don't dare put something out there for fear of the anticipated debate...interesting...

Possibly because it is easier to disprove theories than to prove them.

I am a big believer in deliberate practice. If you want to do something practice it with focus and intent. If you are making good progress stick with it. If you are making slow progress, no progress or going backwards then change your approach.