internal hub gearing for mtb

ouch said:

I'm wondering if anyone has experience mounting an internal hub gear (Sturmey Archer-ish) onto a
mountainbike?

Not personally, but any dealer that uses Rohloffs will probably have done it and could give you
pointers. A Rohloff has similar steps and overall range to a typical 3x9 derailleur.

Quoted message said:

My reasons for doing this would be:
1. Hopefully easier to maintain (and clean) an internal hub gear
2. Maybe longer lasting??
3. Hopefully better gear changes
4. Interested in trying something new

With a Rohloff you should get all of the above[1]. You'll also get a bloody great hole in your bank
balance! :-( I don't think there's much else about at the moment that really has the range you're
looking for in an MTB, unless you don't mind freewheeling down all the big hills.

Quoted message said:

Also, what would become of my chainring(s) and front mech? My guess would be that I would choose
just one chainring with a suitable number of teeth?

That's typically the case, though you could run a more limited hub than a Rohloff in conjunction
with multiple chainwheels to get a bigger range. But ISTM this rather misses points 1-3 above to
some extent.

Quoted message said:

If there are serious "cons" I will abandon this idea.

It depends how rich you are, though if you're looking up the price you may want to sit down first
just in case... And if you hate gripshifts then that's tough, 'cause that's your only choice with
a Rohloff.

Pete.

[1] I've read that changing between 7 and 8 while under heavy load can make you jump ratios (to
14?). But that's no worse than changing a derailleur under heavy load and throwing the chain.
Rather better, in fact!
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

ouch said:

I'm wondering if anyone has experience mounting an internal hub gear (Sturmey Archer-ish) onto a
mountainbike?

I'm thinking about building one and wondered what the pros and cons would be + whether it's worth
the effort.

My reasons for doing this would be:
1. Hopefully easier to maintain (and clean) an internal hub gear
2. Maybe longer lasting??
3. Hopefully better gear changes
4. Interested in trying something new

Also, what would become of my chainring(s) and front mech? My guess would be that I would choose
just one chainring with a suitable number of teeth?

If there are serious "cons" I will abandon this idea.

In my experience Sturmey Archer four speeds used to slip out of gear suddenly and without wanring
and that when they did this under pressure it could be <ouch> indeed. However, this could be because
the SA four speeds I was exposed to were old and worn. Modern nicely made hub gears may not do this.
They are, of course, slightly less efficient than deraileur gears, but in very dirty or tricky
conditions the simpler chain run, enclosed machanism, and lack of a vulnerable deraileur ar might
well make up for this.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) jasmine.org.uk~simonOpen ↗

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<ouch> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm wondering if anyone has experience mounting an internal hub gear (Sturmey Archer-ish) onto a
mountainbike?

Just back from a long ride including off road trails round some of the north sea cycle route on a
rohloff hub MTB/expedition bike. Much easier and nicer than similar rides done using Shimano XT 27
speed gears. Expensive hub yes but unlike the XT rides, after the ride I'm not having to consider
replacing worn cogs, chain and possibly derailleurs.

I also have a hack bike with a spectro7 internal hub gear in a MTB frame = next to no maintenance
and very sturdy. Better than my wifes Shimano nexus 7 hubbed bike as you just pull off the click box
when taking off the wheel with no adjusting of gears or cables required..

peter

<ouch> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm wondering if anyone has experience mounting an internal hub gear (Sturmey Archer-ish) onto a
mountainbike?

This months MBR mag features a Nicolai Nucleon mtb with a Rohloff hub gear system. It's not actually
built into the rear wheel but close to the swing-arm pivot and proves the point that it's fit for
the purpose of mtb gearing. I would have thought that notwithstanding the fewer gears available a
hub mech would be far better suited to winter mtbing, assuming it's well sealed.

My 10 beads worth, Pete

<snip snip>

Quoted message said:

With a Rohloff you should get all of the above[1]. You'll also get a bloody great hole in your bank
balance! :-( I don't think there's much else about at the moment that really has the range you're
looking for in an MTB, unless you don't mind freewheeling down all the big hills.

<snip snip>

Quoted message said:

It depends how rich you are, though if you're looking up the price you may want to sit down first
just in case... And if you hate gripshifts then that's tough, 'cause that's your only choice with
a Rohloff.

It looked absolutely ideal until I looked at that price tag. I only wanted an internal gear hub, not
a Swiss watch!

I'll have a think about it. They do sound very good, almost too good to pass on. I'm still looking
for the "ideal" frame anyway so no great hurries. That should give me a bit of time to "save up".

Thanks for that. I was also a bit wary of SA since they were taken over by the Taiwanese
company a few years ago. I don't know what their quality is like. Since Rohloff is German the
quality, durability etc should be pretty good. The 27sp equivalent should also suit my
application a lot better.

ouch said:

Thanks for that. I was also a bit wary of SA since they were taken over by the Taiwanese
company a few years ago. I don't know what their quality is like. Since Rohloff is German the
quality, durability etc should be pretty good. The 27sp equivalent should also suit my
application a lot better.

The internals of the new SA three speeds are different from the old ones, despite looking the same
from the outside. I think they are designed to change gear _while_ pedalling, which is a fairly
major difference from the old ones. Furthermore as the internals are different, very few original SA
parts will still work and so your LBS will not be able to do much if it goes wrong except order you
a new internal.

You could try and find an unused but old SA hub or try the shimano nexus 7 speed hub...

--

-Alex

----------------------------------
[email hidden]

alexpg.ath.cxcycling.phpOpen ↗ westerleycycling.org.ukwesterleycycling.org.ukOpen ↗
----------------------------------

The Rohloff also will add about a pound to your bike even taking into account the weight saving of
having a single chain ring and single shifter and no front mech. It will also be unsprung mass if
you have a full sus bike.

A Rohloff or similar built into an oversize bottom bracket shell sort of like the Nicloai Nucleon
would seem to be the ideal solution for MTB transmission especially for a muddy country like the UK.

If they could only get the weight and price down people would be queuing up to buy them me included.

ouch said:

I'm wondering if anyone has experience mounting an internal hub gear (Sturmey Archer-ish) onto a
mountainbike?

I'm thinking about building one and wondered what the pros and cons would be + whether it's worth
the effort.

My reasons for doing this would be:
1. Hopefully easier to maintain (and clean) an internal hub gear

Bike will require less frequent maintenance but any when eventually required will be more hassle.
Even changing a rear tyre can be a right pain: retensioning chain, messing about with spanner & nuts
instead of quick release, fiddling with cables (usually).

Quoted message said:

2. Maybe longer lasting??

Probably.

Quoted message said:

3. Hopefully better gear changes

Not necessarily. Both systems can shift very well when properly setup. Could change gear when
stationary, though.

Quoted message said:

4. Interested in trying something new

Definitely would be different. I suggest first getting a second-hand bike with hub gears (any type)
just to see what they're like (for any length of time and distance) if you've never owned one
before. I have done and it's not exactly something I'm keen to go back to - but might one day if I
ever need a low maintenance bike for riding short distances on relatively flat roads and to be
parked outside on the street, etc. I've never used one on an MTB.

5. More weight (for any affordable hub gear system)

Quoted message said:

Also, what would become of my chainring(s) and front mech? My guess would be that I would choose
just one chainring with a suitable number of teeth?

A single chainset would be ideal but, yes, I don't see why you couldn't use the middle ring of your
existing chainset (if an appropriate size is available). Front mech could stay as an anti derailment
device. A different bottom bracket may solve any chainline problems.

~PB

Quoted message said:

Just back from a long ride including off road trails round some of the north sea cycle route on a
rohloff hub MTB/expedition bike. Much easier and nicer than similar rides done using Shimano XT 27
speed gears. Expensive hub yes but unlike the XT rides, after the ride I'm not having to consider
replacing worn cogs, chain and possibly derailleurs.

Where did you buy your Rohloff, and more importantly how much? ;-)

Quoted message said:

I also have a hack bike with a spectro7 internal hub gear in a MTB frame = next to no maintenance
and very sturdy. Better than my wifes Shimano nexus 7 hubbed bike as you just pull off the click
box when taking off the wheel with no adjusting of gears or cables required..

peter

I've seen the Spectro 7's at Wiggle but again I can't find any reviews. How do they compare to
the Rohloffs?

Quoted message said:

The Rohloff also will add about a pound to your bike even taking into account the weight saving of
having a single chain ring and single shifter and no front mech. It will also be unsprung mass if
you have a full sus bike.

I don't mind about the weight so much as long as it's not made of scaffolding tubes.

Quoted message said:

A Rohloff or similar built into an oversize bottom bracket shell sort of like the Nicloai
Nucleon would seem to be the ideal solution for MTB transmission especially for a muddy country
like the UK.

Just seen the pics and the details. I'm gobsmacked. Very nice! The Rohloff is out of reach of mud,
dirt etc too. I wouldn't want to leave it parked in any street though.

Quoted message said:

If they could only get the weight and price down people would be queuing up to buy them me
included.

How much are they (the Nucleons)?

Quoted message said:

The internals of the new SA three speeds are different from the old ones, despite looking the same
from the outside. I think they are designed to change gear _while_ pedalling, which is a fairly
major difference from the old ones. Furthermore as the internals are different, very few original
SA parts will still work and so your LBS will not be able to do much if it goes wrong except order
you a new internal.

Thanks for that. Very useful.

Quoted message said:

You could try and find an unused but old SA hub or try the shimano nexus 7 speed hub...

Do you know whether the Nexus is any good? I can't find any reviews. I think I could cope with a 7
speed (I'll just have to strengthen these spindly legs).

ouch said:

Do you know whether the Nexus is any good? I can't find any reviews. I think I could cope with
a 7 speed

I've ridden a Nexus 7. Changes gear well and seems reliable; certainly better than old Sturmey
Archer 3 and 4-speeds. Bear in mind that there are several versions - different weights and
features, some with roller brake.

~PB

Quoted message said:

ouch said:

Do you know whether the Nexus is any good? I can't find any reviews. I think I could cope with a
7 speed

I've ridden a Nexus 7. Changes gear well and seems reliable; certainly better than old Sturmey
Archer 3 and 4-speeds. Bear in mind that there are several versions - different weights and
features, some with roller brake.

~PB

Is a roller brake similar to a drum brake?

In message <[email hidden]>, ouch <?@?.?.invalid> writes

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

ouch said:

Do you know whether the Nexus is any good? I can't find any reviews. I think I could cope with a
7 speed

I've ridden a Nexus 7. Changes gear well and seems reliable; certainly better than old Sturmey
Archer 3 and 4-speeds. Bear in mind that there are several versions - different weights and
features, some with roller brake.

~PB

Is a roller brake similar to a drum brake?

Depends what you mean by similar.

It doesn't work in the same way, but it has the similar benefits of low maintenance and all weather
reliability .

I have a roller brake on my Nexus rear hub gear and a Sachs drum brake on the front on my
'town/utlity' bike. While the roller brake works ok, it doesn't have the same feel as the drum, it
also seems heavier, but I've not compared it properly.

The Nexus hubs don't come with a roller brake built in, even if you by them together. It just fits
onto the left hand side of the hub.

You might also want to note that there is an 8 speed Nexus hub on the horizon, and an 8 Speed
Sturmey Archer one as well. Though don't know off expected availability off hand.
--
Chris French, Leeds

In message <[email hidden]>, ouch <?@?.?.invalid> writes

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Just back from a long ride including off road trails round some of the north sea cycle route on a
rohloff hub MTB/expedition bike. Much easier and nicer than similar rides done using Shimano XT 27
speed gears. Expensive hub yes but unlike the XT rides, after the ride I'm not having to consider
replacing worn cogs, chain and possibly derailleurs.

Where did you buy your Rohloff, and more importantly how much? ;-)

Quoted message said:

I also have a hack bike with a spectro7 internal hub gear in a MTB frame = next to no maintenance
and very sturdy. Better than my wifes Shimano nexus 7 hubbed bike as you just pull off the click
box when taking off the wheel with no adjusting of gears or cables required..

peter

I've seen the Spectro 7's at Wiggle but again I can't find any reviews. How do they compare to the
Rohloffs?

Well there's no comparison really is there, which is why a Rohloff is just a tad more
expensive......

I used to use a Sachs Super 7, earlier version of the Spectro 7, the hub worked fine. however, I'm
ambivalent about the clickbox arrangement

Yes it does mean that wheel removal is easier, but the downside is that it doesn't use a normal gear
cable. the inner is a flexible solid cable, it comes as a whole unit including the shifter, if part
of it breaks, you have to buy the whole kit and caboodle, this can be expensive (first time it cost
me about GBP20).Second time I tried to get one the design had been superseded it was more difficult
to get hold of one. Though in the end I got one from a German site for less money.

It's since been replaced by a 7 speed Nexus one because of the above and because it had a coaster
brake (which I very much liked) but I needed lower gears for towing a kiddie trailer up Yorkshire
hills and couldn't afford a Mountain Drive. (or a Rohloff)

In terms of performance I found them both pretty comparable it terms of shifting, reliability etc.

I now run my Nexus with a double front chain ring (something like 40/24, maybe 38/24 I can't
remember exactly) on the old MTB triple cranks. I currently have an old road rear mech to take up
the chain tension on, though i keep meaning to make a tensioner that fits onto the chainstay with
less gubbins to go wrong.

I suspect that this puts more load on the Nexus hub that it is designed for in the lower gears, but
I've never had a problem
--
Chris French, Leeds

In message <[email hidden]>, Pete Biggs
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Pete Biggs said:

Quoted message said:

Is a roller brake similar to a drum brake?

I think so (same thing?).

Sorry, after Chris's post, I realise it isn't!

:-)

TBh, I'm not entirely sure how my roller brake works.......... I did Google it once but never got
anything much, other than it has roller applied by a cam. However, you are supposed to apply a
special grease into them every year or so.

In contrast, my Sachs hub brake has brake shoes which are applied by a cam in much the same way as
drum brakes on a car or motorbike.

As you mentioned lack of maintenance is one of the great things about these brakes. Bar the
occasional cable adjustment, and the very occasional lubrication of the cam and the odd replaced
cable I've had to do nothing to my drum brake. It just sits there and works, year after year, sun,
rain or snow.
--
Chris French, Leeds

In message <[email hidden]>, Pete Biggs
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

chris French said:

The Nexus hubs don't come with a roller brake built in, even if you by them together. It just
fits onto the left hand side of the hub.

I've grabbed a Shimano brochure now..... There seems to be two main versions: SG-7R45 which can be
used with a roller brake (and I would expect some to come pre-assembled with one),

You would think so from their description.

However, AFAICR when I went into the LBS to order it (it was not something they had ever ordered I
think) we rummaged through the catalogue but had to order the hub and roller brake separately. but
the Shimano catalogue that they seem to have in bike shops to order things from doesn't always seem
to be the clearest of items.

Assembly isn't hard though, undo a nut on the axle and slide on the brake unit.. Put the
nut back on.

--
Chris French, Leeds

Quoted message said:

I'm wondering if anyone has experience mounting an internal hub gear (Sturmey Archer-ish) onto a
mountainbike?

I'm thinking about building one and wondered what the pros and cons would be + whether it's worth
the effort.

My reasons for doing this would be:
1. Hopefully easier to maintain (and clean) an internal hub gear 2. Maybe longer lasting??

The rear wheel will be a lot stronger because the dishing (spoke angle) is equal(ish) on both sides
of the wheel - on regular wheels the drive side spokes take most of the load.

On the downside, a single rear sprocket takes all the wear and tear and so will presumably wear out
faster than a cassette would - unless it's made of stronger metal to compensate.

Quoted message said:

3. Hopefully better gear changes.

I have the Sachs 3x7 system which I'd argue is easier to set up than the average front mech. This
system is a compromise. The hub replaces the front mech but the rear-mech, cassette and bouncy
chain remain.

Quoted message said:

4. Interested in trying something new

You can change hub gears even when at a standstill - useful for traffic lights. Hub gears are
marginally less efficient than derailleurs. No quick release. I expect the chain would fall off less
often, though this was never true of my kid bikes that only ever had a single gear.

Quoted message said:

Also, what would become of my chainring(s) and front mech? My guess would be that I would choose
just one chainring with a suitable number of teeth?

You might be able to use a front mech if you had a chain tensioner. I think you can choose
different sized sprockets for most hub gear systems - it's something to ask after. SRAM can supply
their own chainset.

Quoted message said:

If there are serious "cons" I will abandon this idea.

Have you looked at the SRAM parts - they make a range of hub gear hubs developed from the older
Sachs parts that are now no longer manufactured. The Sachs parts were rated for tandems; the SRAM
parts are not, but are often fitted to tandems nontheless and Sheldon Brown reckons they're even
stronger than the old parts(he's seen the innards). There's lots of info
(e.g. smallest allowable front chainrings) at www.sram.com who put all their manuals online.

The one part of the SRAM hubs that I don't like is the 'clickbox' - a plastic widget that connects
the cables to the hub to change gear. It's very plastic, and it sticks out so is likely to get
bashed. If I was going touring I'd probably buy a spare as they're quite cheap - certainly less
than a good rear mech, and these get bashed all the time. I don't know whether a cage might help
protect it. Another drawback is that you don't get to use your choice of shifters - afaik it's
twist-grip or nothing.

Alex Graham said:

ouch said:

Thanks for that. I was also a bit wary of SA since they were taken over by the Taiwanese company
a few years ago. I don't know what their quality is like. Since Rohloff is German the quality,
durability etc should be pretty good. The 27sp equivalent should also suit my application a lot
better.

The internals of the new SA three speeds are different from the old ones, despite looking the same
from the outside.

Frankly, would you _want_ them to have the same internals? I don't know about you but I grew up with
Sturmeys and I hate them with a passion. Truly [censored] British engineering at it's worst. Balky,
unreliable, and with very unsafe modes of failure.

The Taiwanese ones have _got_ to be better.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) jasmine.org.uk~simonOpen ↗

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