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Indurain and Doping

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6 July 2006
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10 July 2006
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B. Lafferty
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  1. This was sent to me by a friend in NYC . It was apparently posted in a
    forum somewhere on the web; where I don't know.\
    --------------------------------------------------
    Jacques Anquetil once said "the Tour de France is not won on mineral water
    alone". Eddie Merckx failed three drug tests: 1969 Giro di Italia,
    (Reactivan) DQed; 30 day suspension 1973 Tour of Lombardie, (Ephedrine);
    DQed from race 1977 Fleche Wallone, (Permoline).

    Sabino Padilla's paper on Indurain's 1996 Hour Record offers some very
    compelling evidence of systematic doping by the cycling's top stars. Padilla
    provides documented data on the physical characteristics of Merckx, Moser,
    Obree, Indurain, Rominger and Boardman:

    Cyclist Distance Date Mass, kg CX, m2 Power, W

    Merckx 49.432 10/25/1972 72 0.2618 380
    Moser 51.151 1/21/1984 76 0.2481 400
    Obree 52.713 4/27/1994 71 0.172 359
    Indurain 53.04 9/2/1994 81 0.2441 510
    Rominger 55.291 11/5/1994 65 0.1932 456
    Boardman 56.375 9/6/1996 69 0.1838 462

    His primary conclusion was that even in an aero position, Indurain's large
    body presented much more resistance than the others, accept for Merckx and
    Moser who did not employ aerobars, although Moser's bicycle and position
    were radical in 1984. The use of aerodymanic equipment and position has
    obscured the fact that something else is going on.

    When normalized for power to weight ratio, the following is obtained:

    Cyclist W/Kg
    Merckx 5.3
    Moser 5.3
    Obree 5.1
    Indurain 6.3
    Rominger 7.0
    Boardman 6.7

    Both Merckx and Moser set their records at altitude in Mexico City, which at
    8000 feet would present about a 10% power loss. Hence, Merckx and Moser's
    sea-level power was around 5.8 W/Kg, 9% less than Indurain, 15.5% less than
    Boardman, and 21% less than Rominger. Only the amateur Obree has a
    power-weight ratio consistent with Merckx and Moser, and by employing a
    radical position he was able to set an hour record. One can only conclude
    that Indurain, Rominger and Boardman all employeed some type of hematocrit
    manipulation when setting their records.

  2. B. Lafferty said:

    radical position he was able to set an hour record. One can only conclude
    that Indurain, Rominger and Boardman all employeed some type of hematocrit
    manipulation when setting their records.

    Rominger, yes.
    Indurain and Boardman, no.
    Obree, certainly not.

  3. "Stu Fleming" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    B. Lafferty said:

    radical position he was able to set an hour record. One can only conclude
    that Indurain, Rominger and Boardman all employeed some type of
    hematocrit manipulation when setting their records.

    Rominger, yes.
    Indurain and Boardman, no.
    Obree, certainly not.

    Rominger and Obree I agree with you 100%. Indurain is suspect and Boardman
    I don't know what to think.

  4. B. Lafferty said:

    "Stu Fleming" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    B. Lafferty said:

    radical position he was able to set an hour record. One can only conclude
    that Indurain, Rominger and Boardman all employeed some type of
    hematocrit manipulation when setting their records.

    Rominger, yes.
    Indurain and Boardman, no.
    Obree, certainly not.

    Rominger and Obree I agree with you 100%. Indurain is suspect and Boardman
    I don't know what to think.

    Dumbass -

    If you're gonna infer doping from results, then Boardman is a very big
    one. The 4:11 individual pursuit is incredibly absurd, Superman
    position notwithstanding.

    thanks,

    K. Gringioni.

  5. Stu Fleming <[email hidden]> wrote in
    news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:
    B. Lafferty said:

    radical position he was able to set an hour record. One can only
    conclude that Indurain, Rominger and Boardman all employeed some type
    of hematocrit manipulation when setting their records.

    Rominger, yes.
    Indurain and Boardman, no.
    Obree, certainly not.

    I find it difficult to believe Indurain didn't use EPO at a time when it
    was effectively tolerated (and, according to a recent article I read on a
    dutch newssite, not even illegal).

  6. Quoted message said:

    B. Lafferty:
    Result is simply distance and time. He uses a number of other factors to
    compute watts per kg.

    You're trying to change the subject. The subject is not how watts per
    kg are computed, it's whether someone doped, and what the evidence is.
    You're claiming that doping is responsible for Indurain's wattage.
    Maybe Indurain was just a REALLY GOOD CYCLIST and that's why he
    produced high wattage.

  7. I would wager Indurain yes, Boardman circumspect. Why would you think
    Indurain would be clean and everyone else wasn't? As for Boardman, I
    was told on the down low that he was adverse to EPO, but he found that
    his bone density hurt his climbing (ie, added masses you can't easily
    lose) and that he used a drug to help reduce bone density. While that
    sounds ridiculous, Boardman was forced to retire due to a mysterious
    osteoporosis-like condition; men are much less likely to develop
    osteoporosis, and more or less never before 60 or 70.

    I'd say the only dude not doping was Obree.

    CH

    Stu Fleming said:
    B. Lafferty said:

    radical position he was able to set an hour record. One can only conclude
    that Indurain, Rominger and Boardman all employeed some type of hematocrit
    manipulation when setting their records.

    Rominger, yes.
    Indurain and Boardman, no.
    Obree, certainly not.

  8. "Razorback" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    B. Lafferty:
    Result is simply distance and time. He uses a number of other factors to
    compute watts per kg.

    You're trying to change the subject. The subject is not how watts per
    kg are computed, it's whether someone doped, and what the evidence is.
    You're claiming that doping is responsible for Indurain's wattage.
    Maybe Indurain was just a REALLY GOOD CYCLIST and that's why he
    produced high wattage.

    Be a good boy, and I'll send the tooth fairy to your house tonight.

  9. in message <[email hidden]>, Stu Fleming

    (') said:
    B. Lafferty said:

    radical position he was able to set an hour record. One can only
    conclude that Indurain, Rominger and Boardman all employeed some type
    of hematocrit manipulation when setting their records.

    Rominger, yes.
    Indurain and Boardman, no.
    Obree, certainly not.

    Don't underestimate the performance enhancing powers of a good marmalade
    sandwich. Obree and Paddington Bear cannot be wrong!

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

    The trouble with Simon is that he only opens his mouth to change feet.
    ;; of me, by a 'friend'

  10. B. Lafferty said:

    One can only conclude
    that Indurain, Rominger and Boardman all employeed some type of hematocrit
    manipulation when setting their records.

    Maybe if you're an dumbass of r.b.r. proportions...

    You do realize that Padilla was forced to *estimate* the actual
    performance power of all those hour record holders,? IOW, none of them
    rode with a powermeter, and for only two of them (i.e., Boardman and
    Indurain) is enough other information (e.g., CdA) available to make
    anything other than a WAG.

    Andy Coggan

  11. Chris Harnish said:

    As for Boardman, I
    was told on the down low that he was adverse to EPO, but he found that
    his bone density hurt his climbing (ie, added masses you can't easily
    lose) and that he used a drug to help reduce bone density. While that
    sounds ridiculous, Boardman was forced to retire due to a mysterious
    osteoporosis-like condition; men are much less likely to develop
    osteoporosis, and more or less never before 60 or 70.

    Gee, then I must be a doper, 'cause at age 47 I'm osteopenic, bordering
    on osteoporotic.

    (Then again, that's not all that surprising when you actually look at
    the scientific literature on the subject of bone mineral density and
    long-term participation in cycling...but hey, why let a few *facts*
    stand in the way of a provactive post to r.b.r., eh?).

    BTW, I don't think it can be said that Boardman was forced to retire
    due to his low bone mineral density, any more than it can be said that
    Lemond was forced to retire due to some mysterious mitochondrial
    myopathy...

    Andy Coggan

  12. in message <[email hidden]>,

    (') said:

    More specifically, in the case with
    Boardman and Obree; we can generally agree that Obree, given his simple
    and relatively poor background certainly did not dope for his 2 Hour
    records- yet he did not work out in the pro-peleton,

    That's a canard. Obree was sacked from his team because he refused to
    dope. He's very much an individualist, but the reason he 'didn't work
    out' was because his director sportif wanted to deduct a substantial
    chunk of Obree's salary to pay for dope which he (Obree) didn't want and
    didn't see why he should pay for.

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
    .::;===r==\
    / /___||___\____
    //==\- ||- | /__\( MS Windows IS an operating environment.
    //____\__||___|_// \|: C++ IS an object oriented programming language.
    \__/ ~~~~~~~~~ \__/ Citroen 2cv6 IS a four door family saloon.

  13. Quoted message said:

    lose) and that he used a drug to help reduce bone density. While that
    sounds ridiculous, Boardman was forced to retire due to a mysterious
    osteoporosis-like condition; men are much less likely to develop
    osteoporosis, and more or less never before 60 or 70.

    Yes, this was in the back of my mind when I posted. But you still have
    to consider that, at the time of his retirement, Boardman would have
    trained intensively for nearly 20 years on a track regime. The
    suggestion there is that increased blood acidity as a result leeched
    calcium from his bones.

  14. <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    B. Lafferty said:

    One can only conclude
    that Indurain, Rominger and Boardman all employeed some type of
    hematocrit
    manipulation when setting their records.

    Maybe if you're an dumbass of r.b.r. proportions...

    You do realize that Padilla was forced to *estimate* the actual
    performance power of all those hour record holders,? IOW, none of them
    rode with a powermeter, and for only two of them (i.e., Boardman and
    Indurain) is enough other information (e.g., CdA) available to make
    anything other than a WAG.

    Andy Coggan


    Of course those were estimated. It's obviously much easier to compare
    riders climbing, but he did the best he could. BTW, are you and your bud
    Eddie Coyle working on your press release for down the road when more
    continues to come out about Sir Lance and reality bites you both on the
    butt? Maybe you can spin it along with that great trainer Chris Carmichael.
    Hopefully none of you will have to become gym teachers.

  15. [email hidden] a écrit :

    Quoted message said:
    B. Lafferty said:

    One can only conclude
    that Indurain, Rominger and Boardman all employeed some type of hematocrit
    manipulation when setting their records.

    Maybe if you're an dumbass of r.b.r. proportions...

    He's already noted as that in the FAQ.

  16. "Sandy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    [email hidden] a écrit :

    Quoted message said:
    B. Lafferty said:

    One can only conclude
    that Indurain, Rominger and Boardman all employeed some type of
    hematocrit
    manipulation when setting their records.

    Maybe if you're an dumbass of r.b.r. proportions...

    He's already noted as that in the FAQ.

    Yawn.

  17. B. Lafferty said:

    <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    B. Lafferty said:

    One can only conclude
    that Indurain, Rominger and Boardman all employeed some type of
    hematocrit
    manipulation when setting their records.

    Maybe if you're an dumbass of r.b.r. proportions...

    You do realize that Padilla was forced to *estimate* the actual
    performance power of all those hour record holders,? IOW, none of them
    rode with a powermeter, and for only two of them (i.e., Boardman and
    Indurain) is enough other information (e.g., CdA) available to make
    anything other than a WAG.

    Andy Coggan


    Of course those were estimated. It's obviously much easier to compare
    riders climbing, but he did the best he could.

    I'm not saying that he didn't, only that somebody would be foolish to
    rely on such estimates as proof of doping.

    Quoted message said:

    BTW, are you and your bud
    Eddie Coyle working on your press release for down the road when more
    continues to come out about Sir Lance and reality bites you both on the
    butt? Maybe you can spin it along with that great trainer Chris Carmichael.
    Hopefully none of you will have to become gym teachers.

    Uh, what does the fate of Armstrong's reputation have to do with me?
    I've never met the man, nor have I ever published anything about him.
    For that matter, I don't see how the fact that Ed has done both things
    would ever lead to "reality biting him on the butt".

    Andy Coggan (who is really more qualified to conduct doping tests than
    he is to teach gym)

  18. B. Lafferty said:

    Boardman 56.375 9/6/1996 69 0.1838 462

    BTW, Boardman's own coach (i.e., Peter Keen) has provided an estimate
    for Boardman's hour power that is 20 W less, i.e., 442 W. This is based
    upon knowing his power-velocity relationship from extensive testing
    using an SRM crank. At a mass of 69 kg, this makes his power/mass for 1
    to be 6.40 W/kg, and it is this value that I've used to establish the
    top row of the "functional threshold power" column in the power
    profiling table described here:

    http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/power411/profile.asp

    Andy Coggan

  19. "Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    in message <[email hidden]>, Stu Fleming

    (') said:
    B. Lafferty said:

    radical position he was able to set an hour record. One can only
    conclude that Indurain, Rominger and Boardman all employeed some type
    of hematocrit manipulation when setting their records.

    Rominger, yes.
    Indurain and Boardman, no.
    Obree, certainly not.

    Don't underestimate the performance enhancing powers of a good marmalade
    sandwich. Obree and Paddington Bear cannot be wrong!

    Can you please explain what Marmite is?

  20. B. Lafferty said:

    are you and your bud
    Eddie Coyle working on your press release for down the road when more
    continues to come out about Sir Lance and reality bites you both on the
    butt? Maybe you can spin it along with that great trainer Chris Carmichael.
    Hopefully none of you will have to become gym teachers.

    Just so I understand your logic (and I use that term loosely) here:

    1) because Padilla's estimates of the power of recent hour record
    holders suggest that they generated more power than Merckx, and

    2) because I did my PhD under someone who subsequently tested Armstrong
    on various occasions and wrote a scientific article about his findings,

    then:

    1) many of the hour record holders since Merckx must have doped, and

    2) my reputation will suffer when (if) it is ultimately shown that
    Armstrong doped.

    We've already covered the fallacies underlying your 1 -> 1 and 2 -> 2
    links, but there's also the fact that you're guilty of contradicting
    yourself. That is, if conclusion #1 and #2 are correct, then postulate
    #1 can't be, because Padilla's estimates aren't to be trusted since he
    worked with Indurain, who based on your conclusion #1 is a doper. Ergo,
    conclusions #1 and #2 can't both be correct.

    Andy Coggan (who probably outscored Brian on the LSAT exam)

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