Improving speed

Quoted message said:

The "10% rule" is a rule of thumb. It's OK to increase at that rate
when starting out, but once you're up to a reasonable milage, better
to only increase every 3 weeks or so.

Ok.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

3 months ago I could run 3/4 miles in one hour.
6 months ago it was running/walking.
I never got serious injuries. I'd like to continue.

Sounds like you're off to an excellent start.

Quoted message said:

I run in a park with laps 1 mile long.
So I know how many miles I do in one hour 30 minutes: only 6.

That's not necessarily a problem -- these training runs probably aren't
an all-out effort (they shouldn't be anyway).

It actually sounds like you've made substantial improvements from where you
were 3 months ago.

Quoted message said:

I usually run 3 times a week.

Do you run 90 minutes each of those times ? If so, that's a lot -- better
to break it up into shorter runs.

I do not understand this: why should I run shorter runs?
Remember I am still running for weight control purposes: the longer I
run, the longer I lose.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I run for weight control purposes, but I'd like to be in a half
marathon next spring or next summer.

Consistent running will bring down your weight, and lead to increased speed.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

How are you measuring your pace ? In particular, you say that your
"pace seems to remain the same". So, what do you mean by "seems"
and "the same" ? Are you racing ? Or are you using timed workouts to
measure your progress ?

I am counting the laps in the park.

I think part of the problem is that you have too many variables. If you can
run the same speed for a longer distance, it really does mean that you'll be
able to run the shorter distance at a faster speed.

But this is not an issue if you consistently use the same standard to test
yourself.

For example, how fast can you run 3 miles now ?

I will try, and see how fast I can run 3 miles.

Or better, why not enter a

Quoted message said:

5k race every couple of months, and see how fast you can run 5k ?

I am shy in joining races, because I feel I am too slow.

Quoted message said:

However you choose to do it, find a bench mark you're comfortable with and
stick with it, and you'll be able to see steady progress. My impression based
on what you've posted is that you really are making substantial progress,
and you'll make more of it if you continue.

Other posters have talked about speed work. I don't think it's necessary to
commence a program of speed work, but if you approach it judiciously, it won't
hurt either. One good way to incorporate speed work would be to devise a
particular workout (e.g. a hill workout or an interval workout) and use it
as a performance benchmark to test yourself once a month. I have a personal
favourite workout, which consists of 4 repetitions of 1200m on a track. I
use this to track my progress. A guy I'm training uses 6 reps of 800m. There
are people who like to use 400m reps. And other people who prefer to use their
favourite hill workout. If you do commence speedwork, do some reading about
it first, and don't go ballistic with it by going full tilt every day. Instead,
learn about how it works, what it's for, and start with no more than one such
workout each week.

I'd recommend "The Competitive Runners Handbook" (Bob Glover) as a starting
point. It discusses several different types of speedwork -- fartlek, hill
training, threshold training, and interval training.

Ok, thanks.

estella said:

I do not understand this: why should I run shorter runs?
Remember I am still running for weight control purposes: the longer I
run, the longer I lose.

Then you are doing it right. Here in the highlands of scotland we know
that LSD will burn more calories ove the day that shorter faster runs
will.
Only the head idiot Donniekins, and a handful of ignorant babboons
will dispute this. The rest of know it to be true.

Your strange uncle,
Argylle

"estella" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Do you run 90 minutes each of those times ? If so, that's a lot --
better
to break it up into shorter runs.

I do not understand this: why should I run shorter runs?
Remember I am still running for weight control purposes: the longer I
run, the longer I lose.

I realize you have stayed injury free so far but to keep increasing your
miles in a single run is playing with fire(at least where you are in the
training cycle). You lose roughly 100 calories a mile and doing all
your miles in a single run buys you nothing. As Donovan suggested break
that long run into shorter segments or hold the ones you do to what they
are and add a shorter run.

-DougF

"JaKoB" <jakob.jc@gmail......> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

EXACTLY...maybe cause it hurt you doesn't mean it hurts others.

Sorry but it suggests you don't really understand injury free smart
running. To suggest he jumps out of gate and into speed is to put it
simply, bad advice. This person needs more base. Base alone will make
him a little faster and build some strength to fend off injuries.

Quoted message said:

They asked
for advice and I gave it, I gave what helped ME.

Fine but your progress will be short lived if you manage to avoid injury
.. And some people read a newspaper while they drive.

-DougF

[email hidden] (Fredrick) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Donovan Rebbechi <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I didn't respond to your post to initiate a
pissing contest, or to show everyone how clever I am.

First he feigns sincerety, then...

Quoted message said:

I responded because
someone could really hurt themsevles if they did as you suggested.

ZING! He lets them have it with a HUGE [censored] line! I mean Donnie
boy, you are trolling, or you really are the worlds biggest
(_!_)hole. I know the answer, but perhaps you'd like to clear up all
doubts for the rest of RR?

I vote troll, but it's a toss-up.

estella said:

I do not understand this: why should I run shorter runs?
Remember I am still running for weight control purposes: the longer I
run, the longer I lose.

The main thrust of your first post was asking how to gain a bit more
speed, but the two goals are compatible. Shorter, faster workouts will
also fit in with your weight control goals.

One of the "dangers" of doing the same workout like you do is that
you'll usually never improve beyond a certain point. By breaking up
your training week into a variety of types of runs, all integrated and
having a purpose, you'll improve.

Look around the web for some beginner running programs and notice how
they all have a variety of workouts. Pick one that looks like it'll
fit your schedule. Since you're not a real "beginner" you'll have to
look at which point of the plan to jump into, but that's usually easy
to figure out.

I'll bet you'll notice a consistent improvement over the next few
months.

Mike Tennent
"IronPenguin"

estella said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I usually run 3 times a week.

Do you run 90 minutes each of those times ? If so, that's a lot -- better
to break it up into shorter runs.

I do not understand this: why should I run shorter runs?

It puts less stress on your body.

Quoted message said:

Remember I am still running for weight control purposes: the longer I
run, the longer I lose.

I'm saying to do the same total weekly milage, but do it over more runs. For
example, instead of doing three 90 minute runs a week, try something like:

Mon: 45 min
Tue: 45min
Wed: rest
Thu: 45 miin
Fri: 45min
Sat: 90 min
Sun: rest

Total training volume is still 270 minutes each week, but it's a slightly
easier training week.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But this is not an issue if you consistently use the same standard to test
yourself.

For example, how fast can you run 3 miles now ?

I will try, and see how fast I can run 3 miles.

OK.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Or better, why not enter a
5k race every couple of months, and see how fast you can run 5k ?

I am shy in joining races, because I feel I am too slow.

A lot of people who run races are also "slow". Races are not just for "fast"
people. Several races even have walkers participating in the race, this is
especially common in shorter races.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

In article <[email hidden]>,

estella said:

I do not understand this: why should I run shorter runs?
Remember I am still running for weight control purposes: the longer I
run, the longer I lose.

Not necessarily. You might want to run occasional shorter runs to vary
your workout so you don't get in a rut. This could help you to lose
more weight in the long run. If you train your body to be efficient
at exactly one speed and distance, and then run only at that speed,
you might actually be minimizing the value of your workouts in one way.

Note that varying the distance is just one method of varying your workout.
There are others. Swimmers, for example, will do all kinds of different
intervals, rather than just swimming continuously for an entire pool
session.

IMHO. YMMV.
--
Ron Nicholson rhn AT nicholson DOT com http://www.nicholson.com/rhn/
#include <canonical.disclaimer> // only my own opinions, etc.

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ramone Cila said:

"JaKoB" <jakob.jc@gmail......> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

But if you read my post it says it's what helped me and it MAY help

you.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I didn't say DO this and you will become faster. I also mentioned an
alternative like biking.

More than any other athletes I can think of, runners seem to be full of
themselves in a greater degree. I wouldn't worry about his comments.

Seemed

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to me his [censored] was hurting a bit.

Not at all. The advice Jakob posted could lead to injury in fairly short
order if someone followed it, for a number of reasons. If bad advice is
left to stand unchallenged, a naive beginner has no way to know that it
is bad advice. That is why bad advice on usenet seldom goes unchallenged.

No go Donovan, whatever your intent.....your reply was pompous and prissy. I
think you know that because it took some effort to make it that way.

<< I wouldn't worry about his comments.
Seemed

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to me his [censored] was hurting a bit. >>

Yeast infection?
Or too much, well...
....confection?

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Ramone Cila said:

Quoted message said:

Not at all. The advice Jakob posted could lead to injury in fairly short
order if someone followed it, for a number of reasons. If bad advice is
left to stand unchallenged, a naive beginner has no way to know that it
is bad advice. That is why bad advice on usenet seldom goes unchallenged.

No go Donovan, whatever your intent.....your reply was pompous and prissy. I
think you know that because it took some effort to make it that way.

My view is that the quality of the advice is less important than the writing
style in which it is delivered. I would be much more concerned if advice I
dispensed was shown to be of poor quality, than I would be if someone did not
like my writing style. So I find it peculiar that in this thread, you have
chosen to eschew issues of substance, preferring instead to dwell on issues
of style.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Donovan Rebbechi said:

My view is that the quality of the advice is less important than the writing

^^^^ doh should say "more".

Quoted message said:

style in which it is delivered. I would be much more concerned if advice I
dispensed was shown to be of poor quality, than I would be if someone did not
like my writing style. So I find it peculiar that in this thread, you have
chosen to eschew issues of substance, preferring instead to dwell on issues
of style.

Cheers,

--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

My view is that the quality of the advice is less important than the

writing

Quoted message said:

style in which it is delivered. I would be much more concerned if advice

I

Quoted message said:

dispensed was shown to be of poor quality, than I would be if someone did

not

Quoted message said:

like my writing style. So I find it peculiar that in this thread, you have
chosen to eschew issues of substance, preferring instead to dwell on

issues

Quoted message said:

of style.

That's hogwash. A simple reading of your retort is indicative of the fact
that apart from any substance you wished to impart, you also wished to be
prissy. It took effort. It's obvious. In your own words in the final
sentence, the first four paragraphs were a criticism....nothing more.

Is that the substance I have chosen to "eschew"?

In your words:
I just knew someone was going to jump in and say "to run faster, do speed
work".

This is what most beginners do. They conclude that "to run fast, you need to
do ``speed'' work". Often, they conclude this after receiving bad advice
(like
the above) in forums like rec.running.

Unfortunately, the advice is often dispensed without any understanding of
the
training background of the recipient, and without any explanation of how an
interval workout fits into an overall training program. Often, either the
description of the interval workout is either too vague to be useful, the
workout described is inappropriate for distance training, or both (as in the
above example)

So our unfortunate beginner proceeds to commence ``interval training'',
which,
to them, consists of "running as fast as possible" and then resting, and
repeating this "for several miles". How frequently ? Well, since interval
training was recommended, our naive protagonist replaces all of their
existing
workouts, maybe 3-5 runs per week, with interval sessions. They get
faster --
for a little while. Then they get overtrained. Then they get injured.

Now I could describe an interval workout in some detail instead of just
criticising the above -- but I'm deferring this until the poster volunteers
more information regarding training background.

Ramone Cila said:

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

My view is that the quality of the advice is less important than the writing
style in which it is delivered. I would be much more concerned if advice I
dispensed was shown to be of poor quality, than I would be if someone did
not like my writing style. So I find it peculiar that in this thread, you
have chosen to eschew issues of substance, preferring instead to dwell on
issues of style.

That's hogwash. A simple reading of your retort is indicative of the fact
that apart from any substance you wished to impart, you also wished to be
prissy. It took effort. It's obvious. In your own words in the final
sentence, the first four paragraphs were a criticism....nothing more.

The advice was bad and this was worth pointing out.

The reason I labored the point was not to beat up poor Jakob, it was to
provide an explanation of how misapplying the idea of "speed work" leads
to trouble, especially in overenthusiastic beginners.

Quoted message said:

Is that the substance I have chosen to "eschew"?

The issue of substance is whether or not advice posted is of good quality.

The advice that I posted was of good quality. The advice that Jakob posted
was not.

That's all I have to say on the matter, you're welcome to take the last
word.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

<< ^^^^ doh should say "more". >>
"more"

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On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 17:19:41 -0600, "Ramone Cila" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

you also wished to be
prissy.

He can't help it, he's pretty prissy all the way round.

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

That's all I have to say on the matter, you're welcome to take the last
word.

Having the last word is my choice, not yours, so keep in mind you are
impotent on that point regardless of your silly internet talking points. And
in spite of what you say now, your original prissiness remains the proof
that you had far more on your mind than simply offering good advice. That
could have been done in a sentence or two.

Maybe you were drunk, maybe you had bad day at work or maybe you are just a
[censored], but the end result is that when you attempt to impart good advice you
can weaken it's effect by the tenor of your comment. I would think a guy
like you, apparently the Johnny Appleseed of good running advice, would have
some care for whether or not his message was getting through.

<< I would think a guy
like you, apparently the Johnny Appleseed of good running advice, would have
some care for whether or not his message was getting through. >

....and you Ramone, appear evil.

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On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 10:22:46 GMT, estella <[email hidden]>
wrote in small part:

Quoted message said:

. . .

Quoted message said:

Or better, why not enter a
5k race every couple of months, and see how fast you can run 5k ?

I am shy in joining races, because I feel I am too slow.
. . .

Estrella, I can understand your being shy of races. The way I broke into
entering races was by finding a charity "fun run" type of event that
encouraged family participation and advertised as a "run - walk" 5K.

Entering races helps me know how I can perform on a known distance.
Entering races has also helped me by letting me see and smile at and talk
to other runners. It has been encouraging for me to be a part of such a
friendly group. On many of my runs I see no other runners, and perhaps we
tend to be loners anyway, but at races (at least before and after) I have
found a lot of positive energy and sincere encouragement.

--
Daniel
[email hidden]