Improving speed

estella said:

I'm rather new to running, I started about 8 months ago and now I am
able to run continuously for about one hour and a half.
I thought that running would also increase my speed.
On the contrary, my pace seems to remain the same.

Describe your training program. For example, what does your
typical training week look like ? And how does that compare
with what you were doing 3 months ago ? 6 months ago ?

How are you measuring your pace ? In particular, you say that your
"pace seems to remain the same". So, what do you mean by "seems"
and "the same" ? Are you racing ? Or are you using timed workouts to
measure your progress ?

Quoted message said:

While I am rather happy with my ability to run for such a long time as
a beginner, I am not content with the pace.
What can I do to improve it?

The simple answer is probably going to be, more running, more patience,
and better attentiveness to monitoring improvement.

Anything more detailed than that depends on your answers to the
questions I pose above.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

I can name some things that have increased my speed and may be able to help
you. It's good that you can run for an hour or more everyday but not
necessary if you want to increase speed. Find a track or a measured off
distance and run intervals. Run 1/4 mile as fast as you can, rest for a min
and run 1/2 at a 75% pace. Alternate this for several miles.

One thing that has helped me incredibly and have been able to see results
within 2 weeks is biking. I try to bike an hour a day and it not only
increases my speed, but my distance.

Just try to run intervals and that's generally been proven to increase your
pace on your distance runs.

JaKoB jakob.jc@gmail said:

I can name some things that have increased my speed and may be able to help
you. It's good that you can run for an hour or more everyday but not
necessary if you want to increase speed. Find a track or a measured off
distance and run intervals. Run 1/4 mile as fast as you can, rest for a min
and run 1/2 at a 75% pace. Alternate this for several miles.

I just knew someone was going to jump in and say "to run faster, do speed work".

This is what most beginners do. They conclude that "to run fast, you need to
do ``speed'' work". Often, they conclude this after receiving bad advice (like
the above) in forums like rec.running.

Unfortunately, the advice is often dispensed without any understanding of the
training background of the recipient, and without any explanation of how an
interval workout fits into an overall training program. Often, either the
description of the interval workout is either too vague to be useful, the
workout described is inappropriate for distance training, or both (as in the
above example)

So our unfortunate beginner proceeds to commence ``interval training'', which,
to them, consists of "running as fast as possible" and then resting, and
repeating this "for several miles". How frequently ? Well, since interval
training was recommended, our naive protagonist replaces all of their existing
workouts, maybe 3-5 runs per week, with interval sessions. They get faster --
for a little while. Then they get overtrained. Then they get injured.

Now I could describe an interval workout in some detail instead of just
criticising the above -- but I'm deferring this until the poster volunteers
more information regarding training background.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

estella said:

While I am rather happy with my ability to run for such a long time as
a beginner, I am not content with the pace.
What can I do to improve it?

Run with a competitive friend once a week. Rest well the day before and
the day after.

But if you read my post it says it's what helped me and it MAY help you. I
didn't say DO this and you will become faster. I also mentioned an
alternative like biking.

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

JaKoB jakob.jc@gmail said:

I can name some things that have increased my speed and may be able to

help

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

you. It's good that you can run for an hour or more everyday but not
necessary if you want to increase speed. Find a track or a measured off
distance and run intervals. Run 1/4 mile as fast as you can, rest for a

min

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and run 1/2 at a 75% pace. Alternate this for several miles.

I just knew someone was going to jump in and say "to run faster, do speed

work".

Quoted message said:

This is what most beginners do. They conclude that "to run fast, you need

to

Quoted message said:

do ``speed'' work". Often, they conclude this after receiving bad advice

(like

Quoted message said:

the above) in forums like rec.running.

Unfortunately, the advice is often dispensed without any understanding of

the

Quoted message said:

training background of the recipient, and without any explanation of how

an

Quoted message said:

interval workout fits into an overall training program. Often, either the
description of the interval workout is either too vague to be useful, the
workout described is inappropriate for distance training, or both (as in

the

Quoted message said:

above example)

So our unfortunate beginner proceeds to commence ``interval training'',

which,

Quoted message said:

to them, consists of "running as fast as possible" and then resting, and
repeating this "for several miles". How frequently ? Well, since interval
training was recommended, our naive protagonist replaces all of their

existing

Quoted message said:

workouts, maybe 3-5 runs per week, with interval sessions. They get

faster --

Quoted message said:

for a little while. Then they get overtrained. Then they get injured.

Now I could describe an interval workout in some detail instead of just
criticising the above -- but I'm deferring this until the poster

volunteers

Quoted message said:

more information regarding training background.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Frank Horwill has put things very succinctly:

"Run at race pace. Run faster than race pace. Run slower than race pace."

There are a variety of methods that your body uses to produce energy for
running, generally known as energy systems. If you work on any one of these,
you will get faster...if what you did is specific to how you want to run (how
much faster, for how long). If you want to continue to improve over the long
run, though, you have to work to improve a whole bunch of things. This is
where periodization comes in, and it is a lot more complicated than trying to
improve for a month or so.

You will be more likely successful if you pick up a book like the "Daniels
Running Formula" (new version due in a month) or Glover's "New Competitive
Runners Handbook" and understanding what you're doing overall before you settle
for a quick fix.

There is no simple answer for long term improvement.

Lyndon
"Speed Kills...It kills those that don't have it!" --US Olympic Track Coach
Brooks Johnson

Yea I hope I never get full of myself haha. If you ever see a post like
that from me *smack* me back in line please.

"Ramone Cila" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"JaKoB" <jakob.jc@gmail......> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

But if you read my post it says it's what helped me and it MAY help you.

I

Quoted message said:

didn't say DO this and you will become faster. I also mentioned an
alternative like biking.

More than any other athletes I can think of, runners seem to be full of
themselves in a greater degree. I wouldn't worry about his comments.

Seemed

Quoted message said:

to me his [censored] was hurting a bit.

Ramone Cila said:

"JaKoB" <jakob.jc@gmail......> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

But if you read my post it says it's what helped me and it MAY help you.
I didn't say DO this and you will become faster. I also mentioned an
alternative like biking.

More than any other athletes I can think of, runners seem to be full of
themselves in a greater degree. I wouldn't worry about his comments. Seemed
to me his [censored] was hurting a bit.

Not at all. The advice Jakob posted could lead to injury in fairly short
order if someone followed it, for a number of reasons. If bad advice is
left to stand unchallenged, a naive beginner has no way to know that it
is bad advice. That is why bad advice on usenet seldom goes unchallenged.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

JaKoB jakob.jc@gmail said:

But if you read my post it says it's what helped me and it MAY help you. I
didn't say DO this and you will become faster.

I'm not suggesting that you won't get faster. You almost certainly will. The
issue is that there are much safer (and probably more effective) ways to get
faster. I'm not trying to give you a hard time, but the part of your post
about intervals just wasn't very good advice. Sorry.

Quoted message said:

I also mentioned an alternative like biking.

Cross training is fine. I doubt that it would provide a huge performance
boost, but it's still a good idea.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Lyndon said:

Frank Horwill has put things very succinctly:

"Run at race pace. Run faster than race pace. Run slower than race pace."

Don't know if this is related to getting faster, but last night I was
just reading some of the book the Lore of Running on the same subject
as your quote:

"Gaining an understanding of the different muscle fiber types helps us
appreciate why, during exercise, the fibers in the active muscles are
activated in a specific pattern. Both the type of exercise and its
intensity and duration determine this activation pattern. During
low-intensity running, Type I fibers are initially active, but as the
exercise intensity increases, a greater number of Type II fibers become
active in the sequence of Type IIa > Type IIb (Saltin 1981). There is
also a recruitment sequence during prolonged exercise, with the Type I
fibers being activated first. One theory is that as the Type I fibers
become progressively energy-depleted, the Type IIa fibers become active
followed finally by the Type IIb fibers. Thus, the noncompetitive jogger
who exercises at low intensity for a short duration will train
predominantly Type I fibers, while the middle-distance runner who
includes high-intensity training will train both Type I and Type II fibers.

Logically, optimal training should be at all running intensities so that
all muscles fiber types are trained equally."

-J

JaKoB jakob.jc@gmail said:

Yea I hope I never get full of myself haha. If you ever see a post like
that from me *smack* me back in line please.

I don't understand why you're so upset by my post. But let me
point something out -- we -- rec.running -- are a very non-heirarchical forum.
Even when we have "arguments", there aren't really "winners" and "losers".
That's just not the mindset around here. So no need to get defensive because
you got called on some poor advice. I didn't respond to your post to initiate a
pissing contest, or to show everyone how clever I am. I responded because
someone could really hurt themsevles if they did as you suggested.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Donovan Rebbechi <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I didn't respond to your post to initiate a
pissing contest, or to show everyone how clever I am.

First he feigns sincerety, then...

Quoted message said:

I responded because
someone could really hurt themsevles if they did as you suggested.

ZING! He lets them have it with a HUGE [censored] line! I mean Donnie
boy, you are trolling, or you really are the worlds biggest
(_!_)hole. I know the answer, but perhaps you'd like to clear up all
doubts for the rest of RR?

Fredrick said:

Donovan Rebbechi <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I didn't respond to your post to initiate a
pissing contest, or to show everyone how clever I am.

First he feigns sincerety, then...

Quoted message said:

I responded because
someone could really hurt themsevles if they did as you suggested.

ZING! He lets them have it with a HUGE [censored] line! I mean Donnie
boy, you are trolling, or you really are the worlds biggest
(_!_)hole. I know the answer, but perhaps you'd like to clear up all
doubts for the rest of RR?

The rest of r.r can draw their own conclusions. I doubt that the babbling of
someone calling himself "[email hidden]" is going to sway opinions,
but if it makes you feel better, then by all means, carry on.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Donovan Rebbechi said:

estella said:

I'm rather new to running, I started about 8 months ago and now I am
able to run continuously for about one hour and a half.
I thought that running would also increase my speed.
On the contrary, my pace seems to remain the same.

Describe your training program. For example, what does your
typical training week look like ? And how does that compare
with what you were doing 3 months ago ? 6 months ago ?

I started following some program found in the internet.
The idea was, build up endurance by adding only 10% distance every
week.
3 months ago I could run 3/4 miles in one hour.
6 months ago it was running/walking.
I never got serious injuries. I'd like to continue.
I run in a park with laps 1 mile long.
So I know how many miles I do in one hour 30 minutes: only 6.
I usually run 3 times a week.
I run for weight control purposes, but I'd like to be in a half
marathon next spring or next summer.

Quoted message said:

How are you measuring your pace ? In particular, you say that your
"pace seems to remain the same". So, what do you mean by "seems"
and "the same" ? Are you racing ? Or are you using timed workouts to
measure your progress ?

I am counting the laps in the park.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

While I am rather happy with my ability to run for such a long time as
a beginner, I am not content with the pace.
What can I do to improve it?

The simple answer is probably going to be, more running, more patience,
and better attentiveness to monitoring improvement.

Anything more detailed than that depends on your answers to the
questions I pose above.

Cheers,

EXACTLY...maybe cause it hurt you doesn't mean it hurts others. They asked
for advice and I gave it, I gave what helped ME. It seemed to work ok for
me, maybe you did it wrong. I didn't tell this person they HAD to do this
in order to get faster. Don't get mad at my response because you failed to
give one. *future prediction: "I didn't give advice because I didn't know
her running schedule."

"Fredrick" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Donovan Rebbechi <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I didn't respond to your post to initiate a
pissing contest, or to show everyone how clever I am.

First he feigns sincerety, then...

Quoted message said:

I responded because
someone could really hurt themsevles if they did as you suggested.

ZING! He lets them have it with a HUGE [censored] line! I mean Donnie
boy, you are trolling, or you really are the worlds biggest
(_!_)hole. I know the answer, but perhaps you'd like to clear up all
doubts for the rest of RR?

estella said:

Donovan Rebbechi said:

estella said:

I'm rather new to running, I started about 8 months ago and now I am
able to run continuously for about one hour and a half.
I thought that running would also increase my speed.
On the contrary, my pace seems to remain the same.

Describe your training program. For example, what does your
typical training week look like ? And how does that compare
with what you were doing 3 months ago ? 6 months ago ?

I started following some program found in the internet.
The idea was, build up endurance by adding only 10% distance every
week.

The "10% rule" is a rule of thumb. It's OK to increase at that rate
when starting out, but once you're up to a reasonable milage, better
to only increase every 3 weeks or so.

Quoted message said:

3 months ago I could run 3/4 miles in one hour.
6 months ago it was running/walking.
I never got serious injuries. I'd like to continue.

Sounds like you're off to an excellent start.

Quoted message said:

I run in a park with laps 1 mile long.
So I know how many miles I do in one hour 30 minutes: only 6.

That's not necessarily a problem -- these training runs probably aren't
an all-out effort (they shouldn't be anyway).

It actually sounds like you've made substantial improvements from where you
were 3 months ago.

Quoted message said:

I usually run 3 times a week.

Do you run 90 minutes each of those times ? If so, that's a lot -- better
to break it up into shorter runs.

Quoted message said:

I run for weight control purposes, but I'd like to be in a half
marathon next spring or next summer.

Consistent running will bring down your weight, and lead to increased speed.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

How are you measuring your pace ? In particular, you say that your
"pace seems to remain the same". So, what do you mean by "seems"
and "the same" ? Are you racing ? Or are you using timed workouts to
measure your progress ?

I am counting the laps in the park.

I think part of the problem is that you have too many variables. If you can
run the same speed for a longer distance, it really does mean that you'll be
able to run the shorter distance at a faster speed.

But this is not an issue if you consistently use the same standard to test
yourself.

For example, how fast can you run 3 miles now ? Or better, why not enter a
5k race every couple of months, and see how fast you can run 5k ?

However you choose to do it, find a bench mark you're comfortable with and
stick with it, and you'll be able to see steady progress. My impression based
on what you've posted is that you really are making substantial progress,
and you'll make more of it if you continue.

Other posters have talked about speed work. I don't think it's necessary to
commence a program of speed work, but if you approach it judiciously, it won't
hurt either. One good way to incorporate speed work would be to devise a
particular workout (e.g. a hill workout or an interval workout) and use it
as a performance benchmark to test yourself once a month. I have a personal
favourite workout, which consists of 4 repetitions of 1200m on a track. I
use this to track my progress. A guy I'm training uses 6 reps of 800m. There
are people who like to use 400m reps. And other people who prefer to use their
favourite hill workout. If you do commence speedwork, do some reading about
it first, and don't go ballistic with it by going full tilt every day. Instead,
learn about how it works, what it's for, and start with no more than one such
workout each week.

I'd recommend "The Competitive Runners Handbook" (Bob Glover) as a starting
point. It discusses several different types of speedwork -- fartlek, hill
training, threshold training, and interval training.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

JaKoB jakob.jc@gmail said:

EXACTLY...maybe cause it hurt you doesn't mean it hurts others. They asked

Your advice is potentially harmful because rushing into intense training
without a training foundation is likely to cause connective tissue injuries.
Increasing intensity increases the risk. Increasing workout duration increases
the risk. You advocated "several miles" of intervals (long duration), and you
advocated doing quarters all-out (high intensity).

The combination of those two things, makes for high risk.

Quoted message said:

for advice and I gave it, I gave what helped ME. It seemed to work ok for
me, maybe you did it wrong.

The problem is that nothing I did was inconsistent with your advice, because
your advice was not specific enough for one to deduce how to "do it right". For
example, you talk about "rest" (what is rest ? Jogging ? Walking ? Standing ?)
and "75%" (what is 75% ?), and "several miles" (how many reps ?) How frequently
should the workout be performed ? etc. The assertion that someone "did it
wrong" is erroneous, if what they did was entirely consistent with your
description of "doing it right".

Now it may well have "worked" for you for a number of reasons. For example, you
were probably lighter when you started your training than I was when I started
mine. Low body weight and good biomechanics often means you can stay uninjured
inspite of stupid training. At your age, I adopted fairly stupid training
methods and remained uninjured -- at least partly because I was 140lb at a
height of 6ft.

Quoted message said:

I didn't tell this person they HAD to do this in order to get faster.

I didn't say that you did. I said that you gave them bad advice. I've explained
why your advice is bad.

Quoted message said:

Don't get mad at my response because you failed to give one.

Wrong. Read my followup.

Quoted message said:

*future prediction: "I didn't give advice because I didn't know
her running schedule."

Wrong again. I asked for her running schedule. I posted advice *after*
I had the information I needed to post advice. Because of this, I was able
to offer relevant advice.

It's generally a good idea to know what you're talking about when dispensing
advice. I try to do this. You apparently don't.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

In article <[email hidden]>,

JaKoB jakob.jc@gmail...... said:

...maybe cause it hurt you doesn't mean it hurts others.

Or exactly the opposite may be true. Lot's of people do stupid or
dangerous things and live to tell about it. What evidence do you have to
show you are not one of them? Are you average or lucky? This makes
a big difference.

Quoted message said:

They asked for advice and I gave it, I gave what helped ME.
It seemed to work ok for me,

And how do you know just because it worked for you, what is the likelihood
it will work for anybody else?

IMHO. YMMV.
--
Ron Nicholson rhn AT nicholson DOT com http://www.nicholson.com/rhn/
#include <canonical.disclaimer> // only my own opinions, etc.

In article <[email hidden]>,

estella said:

I'm rather new to running, I started about 8 months ago and now
I am able to run continuously for about one hour and a half.
I thought that running would also increase my speed.
On the contrary, my pace seems to remain the same. ...
What can I do to improve it?

Do you always run for the same amount of time per workout? If so, you
might try varying your runs. Try a shorter run once a week (maybe only
30 to 45 minutes). Then see if you just naturally start running faster
on the shorter runs than on the longer ones.

You might also want to check your cadence (foot-falls per minute).
Beginners sometimes run at too low a cadence, and then try to speed up
by over-striding, which can be inefficient or possibly increase
the impact stress on ones joints. Having a track-and-field or running
coach watch you run might also be a good idea.

IMHO. YMMV.
--
Ron Nicholson rhn AT nicholson DOT com http://www.nicholson.com/rhn/
#include <canonical.disclaimer> // only my own opinions, etc.