I Beat Donovan :) ???

Hey Lance, this last week I've been thinking you must be due for a
race, between your excitement over recent PRs and the frequency with
which you normally race.

Excellent job, congrats. Though I'm a bit disappointed you ascribe
your success mostly to good training - it's always more fun when you
throw in some arcane and/or dubious explanation, like protein loading.

OTOH, 3 Dr Scholl inserts per shoe definitely counts for something.
And come to think of it, that along with the flats weight citation to
the tenth of an ounce, from the author of http://tinyurl.com/8e6ow -
hey, this turns out to be a classic post after all, you're just getting
more subtle in your geriatric years! :-)

And not to take anything away from your besting Donovan's AG% - that
really does kick ass - but I did notice that he was especially "on" in
a recent exchange with TBR (http://tinyurl.com/cjnn7) and this effort
may have taken something out of him.

Quoted message said:

...I checked Donovan's time....which I

cannot compete with....however I did best Donnie in AG scoring &
positioning..>

So What, I beat him in every race we've run in, and I physically beat
him, not by class.

Quoted message said:

Hee hee.....I won't bore you all w/the usual race report stuff...just
give you some personal insight of a 42 year old race rat that i am.

Good race. The 2-a-days seem to have done you some good -- that was basically
what I was doing when I ran my 28:27 on the same course last year. I've just
got back into 2-a-day training (about 70-80mpw) as of 3 weeks back, so hopefully
I'll be fast again in a month or so. Still, I'd be pretty happy with 74.5% -- I
think my best 3 road performances are something like 75.2,74.6,74.4.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

DO guys REALLY go

Hee Hee?

Thanks CP,

Quoted message said:

it's always more fun when you

throw in some arcane and/or dubious explanation, like protein loading.
_

to not disappoint you, yes, protein loading is key, on a daily
basis...to properly pull off 2-a-days, especially when you're over 40
and running hard. it's easy to tear down the body and over-train and
flirt with injury....the edge of injury. diet is
imparative...rebuilding the body, etc....protein. I am a fish eating
vegetarian...hence i load up with something you can find at your local
GNC called PowerButter (on celery). I am very much in tuned to doing
all i can to induce a state of receovery to my body post a 5 mile at
85% speed as i know in 10-12 hours i am going to do it again. i
replenish carbos and protein within 30 minutes of a run.

i know donnie and many diminish the psychological aspect of this stuff
we do. i don't. i completely visioned every step/stride in my race 72
hours before the event...and every moment prior. again, my "bible" is
Gary Mack, "Mind Gym". Look....Tiger Woods, Lance Armstrong and
numerous others at the top of their game swear by sports psychologist.
I do too. I don't have one....but I read about it...and read up prior
to a race simply to frame my mind and get poised for the challenge.

C'mon...we've all been at points in race wherein we broke the mental
will of a runner. So yes CP...everytime I line up...to
race...honestly...I swear...I think of two runners...Zepotek (SIC) and
Billy Mills. I want moments like these runners have had....."over
their head moments". My whole goal in every race is to call upon my
mental will to get me through the damn thing....

thanks donnie...for letting me crow a bit. a great thing about racing
is that you get to live on your laurels for about a week or so.....and
then it's a new race, a new day...and you've got to do it all over
again. there is no rest in the racing game. someone is always working
hard to catch you and best you. but that's what i love about racing.
everyone's all smiles before the start...then they're trying to kick
your ass in the race.....

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

...I checked Donovan's time....which I

cannot compete with....however I did best Donnie in AG scoring &
positioning..>

So What, I beat him in every race we've run in,

Since we've never run a race together, that's a vacuous achievement.

Quoted message said:

and I physically beat him,

You've got me confused with your wife. Look, she's the one with the beard, OK ?

Quoted message said:

not by class.

Cos you don't have any (-;

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Quoted message said:

Since we've never run a race together, that's a vacuous achievement.>

I was a bandit in a few, and beat you straight-up in others. Stop being
a poor loser.

Quoted message said:

You've got me confused with your wife.>

HA! I got you there. I would NEVER hit my wife, last time I hit her she
sprang a leak, and I had to run down to "Dongs R us" for a patchkit,
and a air pump to reinflate her.

Quoted message said:

Look, she's the one with the beard, OK ?>

You say that like it's a BAD thing? I like that scruffy-scratching
feeling on my thighs. Don't you Donniekins?

Quoted message said:

I am very much in tuned to doing all i can to induce [...]
recovery [...] i replenish carbos and protein within 30
minutes of a run.

Trust me, as someone approaching 40 who has incurred an embarassing
number of injuries over the 2+ year course of my running career, though
some combination of overzeal, stoopidity, and apparently frailty, I'm
keenly interested in keeping my muscles happy too. Yeah, I'm quaffing
endurox during my walking cooldown, carbs and maybe a little protein
before and during (per the "Tony Remove" protocol), juice with protein
powder, fish, cold showers (I'm not ice-bath hardcore, yet), etc.

I just wouldn't have dreamt of calling it "protein loading", which
doesn't sound like you're giving muscles what they need for repair, but
rather like you're cramming a ton of the stuff into every nook and
cranny of your body where it'll stay squirreled away until you call on
it for that extra burst of effort.

Quoted message said:

i know donnie and many diminish the psychological aspect
of this stuff we do. i don't.

Sure, I believe there's something to this stuff as well, though no
first-hand experience with the sports psych stuff. Clearly it's not as
if the mind is just some quiet, unobtrusive passenger along for the
ride...

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Thanks CP,

Quoted message said:

it's always more fun when you

throw in some arcane and/or dubious explanation, like protein loading.
_

to not disappoint you, yes, protein loading is key, on a daily
basis...to properly pull off 2-a-days, especially when you're over 40
and running hard. it's easy to tear down the body and over-train and
flirt with injury....the edge of injury. diet is
imparative...rebuilding the body, etc....protein. I am a fish eating
vegetarian...

no such thing, kimosabi, if you eat fish, you're not a veterian,

hence i load up with something you can find at your local

Quoted message said:

GNC called PowerButter (on celery). I am very much in tuned to doing
all i can to induce a state of receovery to my body post a 5 mile at
85% speed as i know in 10-12 hours i am going to do it again. i
replenish carbos and protein within 30 minutes of a run.

i know donnie and many diminish the psychological aspect of this stuff
we do. i don't. i completely visioned every step/stride in my race 72
hours before the event...and every moment prior. again, my "bible" is
Gary Mack, "Mind Gym". Look....Tiger Woods, Lance Armstrong and
numerous others at the top of their game swear by sports psychologist.
I do too. I don't have one....but I read about it...and read up prior
to a race simply to frame my mind and get poised for the challenge.

C'mon...we've all been at points in race wherein we broke the mental
will of a runner. So yes CP...everytime I line up...to
race...honestly...I swear...I think of two runners...Zepotek (SIC) and
Billy Mills. I want moments like these runners have had....."over
their head moments". My whole goal in every race is to call upon my
mental will to get me through the damn thing....

Quoted message said:

to not disappoint you, yes, protein loading is key, on a daily
basis...to properly pull off 2-a-days, especially when you're over 40
and running hard. it's easy to tear down the body and over-train and
flirt with injury....the edge of injury. diet is
imparative...rebuilding the body, etc....protein.

How many grams a day ? I doubt it's really "loading".

Quoted message said:

I am a fish eating
vegetarian...

Oxymoron.

Quoted message said:

hence i load up with something you can find at your local
GNC called PowerButter (on celery).

Blergh.

Quoted message said:

I am very much in tuned to doing
all i can to induce a state of receovery to my body post a 5 mile at
85% speed as i know in 10-12 hours i am going to do it again. i
replenish carbos and protein within 30 minutes of a run.

i know donnie and many diminish the psychological aspect of this stuff
we do. i don't.

Put it this way -- all this "psycological" mumbo jumbo works better when you're
well trained than when you're not, right ? I mean, you were a firm believer in
all this mumbo jumbo back in the old days, when you were performing at a level
that we know know was well below your potential.

Even an easy tempo run now would be faster than your old races. Psychology
isn't going to get your from 70% to 75%. It might get you from 74.5% to 75%,
but it seems to me that you spend way too much time worrying about the .5% (what
shoes, what gels, "psychology", etc) and not enough time worrying about the
stuff that makes a huge difference (mileage, speedwork).

Quoted message said:

i completely visioned every step/stride in my race 72
hours before the event...

And the results were mediocre until you started training. Arguably you could
still make considerable progress by training more intelligently (e.g. speed
work) instead of getting hung up on this mumbo jumbo.

Quoted message said:

C'mon...we've all been at points in race wherein we broke the mental
will of a runner. So yes CP...everytime I line up...to
race...honestly...I swear...I think of two runners...Zepotek (SIC) and
Billy Mills. I want moments like these runners have had....."over
their head moments".

They wouldn't have even been contenders for their olympic teams if they didn't
train properly.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

it's protein loading. i try and consume .75g - .9g of protein / .lb of
body weight daily...all to promote muscle repair ('round the clock).
this is how i combat the stress and tearing down of my
muscles/ligaments/tendons doing 2-A-Days does on the body, especially
that of a 42 year old man road running. hence i'm consuming 140-160g
of protein daily. the majority of this i am consuming in liquid form
actually.

what you call "mumbo jumbo" donnie is sworn by from numerous top
athletes in all fields of sport and many credit the mental edge
accounting for about a 15% bump up in performance (translated to the
sport). Here's a story for you all to get you going....

from Mind Gym, Gary Mack...

Bud Winters, on of the USA's great track and field coaches would
instruct his runners to take it "easy" and He found that he got better
results when he told runners to run at 90% as opposed to telling them
to run at 100%. Voluntary muscles are organized into opposing pairs.
Running is better performed when some musclses are contracting while
others are relaxing. Running at top speed, athletes use all of their
muscles - the agonists and the antagonists. They are accelerating and
braking at the same time. The muscles are at odds. This prevents them
from running as fast as they can. .

Giving 90% effort, runners extend a lot of muscular energy but they
relax the antagonist muscles that hinder maximum performance. The idea
is to not create stress and tension but relaxation. Over-trying leads
to under-performing.
___

Bud Winters felt is was a mental challenge of runners to find that 90%
effort point to where they were running relaxed, not over trying, not
braking, just relaxed. He felt the verbal instructions he gave his
runners made a tremedous difference..... Now different people can wrap
of this perspective in different ways/themes....however I think the
overriding point is for the runner to manifest the personal mental
discipline to stay within their own running game and zone in at that
point wherein they are not defeating themeselves (braking) in the
running endeavor.

Quoted message said:

it's protein loading. i try and consume .75g - .9g of protein / .lb of
body weight daily...all to promote muscle repair ('round the clock).

That's the amount that endurance athletes need to maintain positive nitrogen
balance (plus a modest safety margin). Not "loading".

[snip]

Quoted message said:

what you call "mumbo jumbo" donnie is sworn by from numerous top
athletes in all fields of sport and many credit the mental edge
accounting for about a 15% bump up in performance

(1) Are you saying that all that a 35 minute 10k runner needs to do in order
to break 30 minutes is "try harder" ? There is an enormous body of evidence
that demonstrates that this notion is utter nonsense.

(2) You are ignoring, and haven't addressed my argument. If you make an
improvement of 10% or so in your race performance, your former race pace will
be quite easy/comfortable. This means that the improvement in performance cannot
be due to better "mental preparation" alone.

(3) You are also ignoring and failing to address my point that inspite of all
that mumbo jumbo, you still performed at a level that was mediocre (by your
own standards) for several years.

Quoted message said:

Bud Winters felt is was a mental challenge of runners to find that 90%
effort point to where they were running relaxed, not over trying, not
braking, just relaxed. He felt the verbal instructions he gave his
runners made a tremedous difference..... Now different people can wrap

Felt this, felt that. Mumbo jumbo, voodoo, the lot of it.

Cheers
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Quoted message said:

Are you saying that all that a 35 minute 10k runner needs
to do in order to break 30 minutes is "try harder" ?

I'd think that would require "try MUCH harder", at a bare minimum. If
this 35 min guy could learn to run through water breaks instead of
slowing down to a walk, that'd help too... Galloway be damned.

Quoted message said:

Felt this, felt that. Mumbo jumbo, voodoo, the lot of it.

Aw c'mon, Donovan, are you sure you aren't just stinging from both
Lance and Bagpip beating you this last week?

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it's protein loading. i try and consume .75g - .9g of protein / .lb of
body weight daily...all to promote muscle repair ('round the clock).

That's the amount that endurance athletes need to maintain positive
nitrogen
balance (plus a modest safety margin). Not "loading".

Donovan, can you suggest a source/book/site that you feel provides a
good scientific and empirical summary of key nutritional factors as pertains
to endurance sports? I've heard in the past I should stick with a
multivitamin and maybe a protein supplement - but not much more that made
sense.
For example, protein and carbo intake, recovery, a little physiology
mixed in, but without the influence of someone trying to sell me GNC-type
products? (In other words, I believe in getting my nutrients from food, not
bottles as much as possible).

Dave

Quoted message said:

but without the influence of someone trying to sell me GNC-type products?

__

hey david. throw in the towel david and go to your local gnc-type of
store. are you kidding? do the math and then look at what you would
have to eat free of relying on the stuff you buy at a GNC.

and donnie's a microbiotic vegan or something like that. i don't like
"bloat" feeling. hence i need to kill 2 birds with 1 stone and get my
carbo & protein for endurance in my liquid (water). that means
visiting your gnc.

even w/food. best bang for minimal intake i know of is powerbutter on
celery. 4 TBSP spread on a single celery stick is less than a
nutrional bar in terms of filling & 32g of Protein. Wash that down w/a
50g Canned protein drink and you've clocked 80+ grams of protein
w/minimal fill.

Nothing beats ABB CarboForce spiked w/CytoMax for 300g of carbo shakes
in orange. I would hate to see what you have to eat free of GNC
supplements to clock proper protein and carbos for endurance sports.
For example for me now, clockng 150g of protein is easy with no filling
feeling or bloat. How in the hell do you do that, day in, day out,
continually without GNC?

David Geesaman said:

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it's protein loading. i try and consume .75g - .9g of protein / .lb of
body weight daily...all to promote muscle repair ('round the clock).

That's the amount that endurance athletes need to maintain positive
nitrogen
balance (plus a modest safety margin). Not "loading".

Donovan, can you suggest a source/book/site that you feel provides a
good scientific and empirical summary of key nutritional factors as pertains
to endurance sports?

I'm not sure that you'll find a *concise* summary anywhere. Your best bet would
be an exercise physiology text book. But even these can be a little misleading
if they're not up to date. The Noakes book covers carbohydrates, etc.

Quoted message said:

I've heard in the past I should stick with a multivitamin and maybe a protein
supplement - but not much more that made sense.

That's more or less what I do. I'm vegetarian, non-vegetarians might be able to
do fine without the protein supplement. I'd recommend multivitamins for almost
anyone.

Quoted message said:

For example, protein and carbo intake, recovery, a little physiology
mixed in, but without the influence of someone trying to sell me GNC-type
products?

For this I'd recommend Noakes and a good exercise physiology book. I've heard
good things about the Costill book, and he is a key expert on the physiology
of running, so his book would be a good starting point.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

but without the influence of someone trying to sell me GNC-type products?

__

hey david. throw in the towel david and go to your local gnc-type of
store. are you kidding? do the math and then look at what you would
have to eat free of relying on the stuff you buy at a GNC.

I think that may have been a subtle dig at authors like Bill Phillips who are
trying too hard to push specific products.

FWIW, multivitamins aren't expensive, and whey protein powder is about $4/lb
if you buy on the internet.

Quoted message said:

and donnie's a microbiotic vegan or something like that. i don't like
"bloat" feeling. hence i need to kill 2 birds with 1 stone and get my
carbo & protein for endurance in my liquid (water).

I also take in whey protein shakes. I'd suggest ordering over the internet,
much cheaper than retail.

[snip]

Quoted message said:

Nothing beats ABB CarboForce spiked w/CytoMax for 300g of carbo shakes
in orange. I would hate to see what you have to eat free of GNC
supplements to clock proper protein and carbos for endurance sports.

Carbs are cheap, abundant, and non-essential (there is no such thing as an
essential carbohydrate). No need for carb supplements. It's easier to maintain
a good competitive bodyweight if you're not force-feeding yourself with carbs.

Quoted message said:

For example for me now, clockng 150g of protein is easy with no filling
feeling or bloat. How in the hell do you do that, day in, day out,
continually without GNC?

I think 3 chicken breasts or so would do it. Unless you're vegetarian, it's
not that hard. But this diatribe is missing the point -- protein powder is a
form of food. It's concentrated protein in much the same way as sugar is a
concentrated carbohydrate. People think of sugar as a "food" and whey powder
as a "supplement", but they are actually not substantially different.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Quoted message said:

People think of sugar as a "food" and whey powder as a "supplement",
but they are actually not substantially different.

http://tinyurl.com/a4nwf

Heh, now *that* was a *thread*.