hubs/cranks and stuff

jayhawker said:

I am interested in how widespread this problem is.

Was I just lucky to get an in spec Koxx 1 hub?

I think the K1 hubs are all the same (i.e. all non-ISIS). Probably you
are just lucky that the Truvativ cranks are wide enough to fit.

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division8.ca said:

First point : year after year, the KOXX bicycle lineup always counts
between 15 and 20 bikes, bikes that use 1.125" headtubes, 68xBSA1.37"
BB sheels, 135mm spacing rear hub, etc, are called MTB's... Let's not
play with words here....

We obviously talk a different language, in the UK MTB means Mountain
Bike, not Trials Bike. Admittedly the technologies are similar in
this, so it is just side tracking the discussion.

division8.ca said:

Second point : If you can put your hands on a ISIS BB, and compare it
with the K1 hub spindle, you'll see that the difference is actually
noticeable if you pay attention... Of course, even I didn't notice
until I actually tried to fit an ISIS MTB crank on the K1 hub...
Removing less material when grooving the spines certainly can't make
the spindle weaker.

The Koxx interface is 1.6mm shorter than the minimum required by ISIS
standard, this of course will be weaker than an interface of the
correct length. As it happens decreasing the depth of the splines in
this instance is more likely to decrease the strength rather than
increase it due it reducing the metal to medal contact area due to the
tapered spline design. This is only marginal though.

division8.ca said:

Now, was it done intentionnally or not, I can't tell.

This is again relatively irrelevant. It is history, it has been done.

division8.ca said:

Third point : I never said you should use K1 cranks on other hubs. I
would rather even strongly advise against it. Use the K1 stuff as a
combo. Just like you can't use an ISIS crankset on an Octalink Spindle,
or why different BMX 3pc cranksets from different manufacturers all use
a different spindle interface. If the interface isn't the same on your
cranks and spindle, you're definitly asking for problems...

Please check the Koxx-one site..... http://www.koxx-one.com/ You will
see there that they are STILL claiming that their hubs and cranks are
ISIS. Have they changed them? They have not informed the public. The
problem is this confusion, not whether they make mountain bikes or not.
If they really are ISIS then there will be cross compatibility with
other ISIS hub/cranks, this is why the ISIS standard was set up. If
you had a Cotterless crank that did not fit on a cotterless hub you
would think it odd, wouldn't you?

It would be helpful if Koxx made it clear what they are selling? They
have obviously told you one thing and us another and the public nothing
at all. They are just leaving the retailers do their best to find a
solution to this problem.

Roger

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rogeratunicycledotcom said:

Please check the Koxx-one site..... http://www.koxx-one.com/ You will
see there that they are STILL claiming that their hubs and cranks are
ISIS. Have they changed them? They have not informed the public. The
problem is this confusion, not whether they make mountain bikes or not.
If they really are ISIS then there will be cross compatibility with
other ISIS hub/cranks, this is why the ISIS standard was set up. If
you had a Cotterless crank that did not fit on a cotterless hub you
would think it odd, wouldn't you?

It would be helpful if Koxx made it clear what they are selling? They
have obviously told you one thing and us another and the public nothing
at all. They are just leaving the retailers do their best to find a
solution to this problem.

Thank you again for addressing these issues so openly, that really
deserves respect.
As I said, the best way to put pressure on Koxx might be to tip of the
ISIS consortium. Maybe they could send some tall guys in black suits to
the K1 HQ... 😎

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Niko said:

I think the K1 hubs are all the same (i.e. all non-ISIS). Probably you
are just lucky that the Truvativ cranks are wide enough to fit.

Clearly not all K1 hubs are the same. My hub has a flute length of
16.0mm and Roland's hub had a flute length of 14.4mm. Do you consider
that the same?

It is clear, that at a minimum, Koxx has some quality issues. I would
bet that my K1 hub is within the ISIS specs. From my measurements the
flute length of 16.0mm is within spec and the distance between flutes
of 17.3mm is within one hundredth of a mm and that is only because I
have a poor micrometer. I have fit three different sets of Truvativ
Luftalarm cranks on this K1 hub so I doubt I got lucky with the
cranks.

Since only a handful of K1 hubs have been measured, a larger sample set
needs to be measured before a clear determination can be made about how
many K1 hubs do and don't meet the ISIS spec. I do understand why
retailers such as Roger and Roland made the statement about the K1
hubs. If a retailer knows of a potential compatibility issue they
must assume that all K1 hubs are suspect and issue a warning to protect
customers.

I am in no way defending Koxx! If Koxx designed the K1 hub and cranks
to be outside of the ISIS specification they should not be allowed to
use the ISIS name. But if
Koxx had some quality issues, like any manufacture has at one time or
another, I am willing to forgive them.

It does not help Koxx's case that they have not provided us with
information about the hubs that Roland measured. The only statement
from Koxx has been "we are ISIS compliant", which is clearly not the
case with all of their hubs.

The more important question is "did Koxx design their K1 hub outside of
the ISIS specification?".

Only Koxx can answer this question. Until Koxx does they will have
fewer customers in the unicycle market.

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jayhawker said:

Clearly not all K1 hubs are the same. My hub has a flute length of
16.0mm and Roland's hub had a flute length of 14.4mm. Do you consider
that the same?

Oh, O.K, I was just basing my statement on the basis that so far no one
fit KH cranks on a K1 hub and there were never any problems fitting K1
cranks on K1 hubs (as far as I know). Please note that the flute depth
was also measured to be out of spec (and that probably on every K1
hub). Thats why I said that the Truvativ cranks may be wide enough by
design (maybe they are out of spec as well?). But thats just my
speculation.

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Niko said:

Oh, O.K, I was just basing my statement on the basis that so far no one
fit KH cranks on a K1 hub and there were never any problems fitting K1
cranks on K1 hubs (as far as I know). Please note that the flute depth
was also measured to be out of spec (and that probably on every K1
hub). Thats why I said that the Truvativ cranks may be wide enough by
design (maybe they are out of spec as well?). But thats just my
speculation.

Yes, as far as I know, no one has fit a KH crank on a K1 hub. But also
understand that the ISIS specification has tolerances where a crank and
hub can both be ISIS and not fit together.

From the ISIS spec:

Max distance between hub flutes: 17.290 mm +0.0 mm - 0.035 mm

Max distance between crank flutes: 17.290 mm+/- 0.020 mm

So a ISIS hub can have a flute distance of 17.290 mm and a ISIS crank
can have a flute distance of 17.270 mm. In this case both the hub and
crank are ISIS and they will not fit together. I am not saying this
is the case of the K1 hub. Clearly it is not, because Roland measured a
flute length of 14.6 mm (outside of the spec) and a flute distance that
might have been more than 17.34 mm (also outside the spec).

Yes, Roland's K1 flute distance was out of spec, but please understand
that the flute distance on my K1 hub is clearly different than what
Roland saw. As far as the Truvativ cranks, I bet they are within the
ISIS spec. If the Truvativ cranks were the largest allowed, they would
be 17.31 mm. For them to fit on the K1, the K1 would be at most 17.30
mm (+ 0.01 mm) over the ISIS spec but more than likely within the ISIS
spec at 17.29 mm.

Since my K1 hub is more than likely within the ISIS spec, I wish people
would stop speculating that "all K1 hubs are out of spec". I will admit
that I may have the only K1 hub within the ISIS spec, but one does
exist!

The problem is that there is too much "speculation" and not enough
"facts". Most of the speculation is due to Koxx not being upfront
about the hubs that were not within the ISIS specification.

Here are the facts:

I own one K1 hub that is within the ISIS specification.

Roland measured some K1 hubs that were outside of the specification.
(Koxx needs to comment on why these hubs were outside of the ISIS
specification).

Some KH cranks did not fit on some K1 hubs.

Again, I am not trying to defend Koxx, Koxx could clear all this up if
they came public with all the information about the K1 hub. But I also
am not ready to condemn Koxx. I would like to know the facts before I
pass judgment.

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Thanks for the clarification. And it is true that Koxx should come
forward and help to end the speculations.
I guess the tests that Roger talked about were not only done on a
single hub. If the problems were indeed the result of manufacturing
variance and not only a systematic derivation, then I just wonder why
there are no compatibility problems between K1 hubs and cranks (a
friend of mine had to replace his K1 cranks twice without any problems
with the fit).

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Niko said:

I guess the tests that Roger talked about were not only done on a single
hub.

no, they were done on 5 hubs/unicycles, 2 from one batch and 3 from
another several months later. All were of similar size; in fact they
were incredibly similar. It is interesting that not all are the same.
jayhawker, is yours one of the newer batch with the words REINFORCED
printed in the centre?

Roger

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rogeratunicycledotcom said:

no, they were done on 5 hubs/unicycles, 2 from one batch and 3 from
another several months later. All were of similar size; in fact they
were incredibly similar. It is interesting that not all are the same.
jayhawker, is yours one of the newer batch with the words REINFORCED
printed in the centre?

Roger

Hi Roger,

My hub has the standard K1 within an oval in the center of the hub and
nothing else. I believe I purchased this hub from Roland on August 31,
2006 (if that helps).

Interesting! Testing multiple hubs from multiple batches, all with
similar size, is definitely a trend. Would mine have come from a
previous batch?

Has anyone been able to test the new "REINFORCED" Koxx hubs?

Jayhawker

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So have any tests been done on the most recent hubs?

This only seems to have become a big issue since the KH moment hub came
out which is probably because of the lack of compatability but since
then Koxx have brought out their ISIS light hub, is this ISIS or does
it have the same problem?

And Jayhawker, you have admitted in another thread that not all Koxx
hubs are the same 'here' (http://tinyurl.com/22yqmj)

It seems that if the new hub is the same as the old one and is out of
spec then Koxx don't really care about making a hub that is truly ISIS
and should stop using the name. If they are making a hub that is
Genuine ISIS then people with the old hubs should be allowed to return
them.

If I bought a hub sold as ISIS and it did not meet the specification
then I would feel entitled to get my money back.

Plumsie

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Hi Plumsie,

Today I pulled a crank off my Koxx Devil and measured the flutes. The
flute length is 15.9 mm (slightly under spec) and the flute distance
(rough measurement) was 17.3 mm (probably within spec). This confused
me because as you stated I tried to mount a Truvativ crank on the hub
last fall and saw a 1/4" gap. I was expecting to see a flute length in
the 14.6 mm range that Roland had seen. I then installed the Truvativ
crank and saw the 1/4" gap again. The problem is the spacer was still
on the Koxx crank that I had pulled off. When I pulled the crank off
and installed the spacer, everything was fine. The Truvativ crank has
a collar that looks like a spacer, last fall I must have thought that
the spacer was installed.

I purchased the Koxx Devil in the fall of 2005. So maybe old batches
of Koxx 1 hubs are closer to the ISIS specification than the current
ones. I have considered ordering a set of KH Moment 165 cranks to see
if they fit on my K1/Large Marge wheel set. But since UDC is out of
stock I will not be able to try this until they get some. Also I don't
want to be the one to say "KH Moment cranks fit on my K1 hub" and have
other people try the same thing and fail.

Jayhawker

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You can go the the below site to see Onza Unicycles.

http://www.onza.com/site_files_flash/04models.htm

I have ridden the 2005 model and am very happy with it except for the
shape of the crown. The potruding pipes would always hit the insides of
my knees or my knee/shin guards and this was quite anoying. Other than
that it was a great Unicycle.

If the price is similar go for the KH 2007. If you want to have an less
common Unicycle go for the Onza.

The only thing inferior to the KH is that the paint chips and scratches
easier on the aluminum than on CroMoly.

Unicorn

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