How to build a bigger engine

In article said:

http://www.fasterskier.com/training.php?id=671

Quoted message said:

If this method of (compressed) VO2 block interval training
really works - and I´m not saying it cannot work - shouldn´t
it work for runners, too?

Daniels recommends intervals of ideally 5 minutes to stress vo2max and also
states it takes about 2 minutes before you reach vo2max. He doesn't
mention any specific gains such as 0.5% per session though.

Paul

Anders Lustig wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

...at least if you´re a crosscountry skier and up with what´s
happening in the very forefront of endurance training science
or just hip to what appears to be the hit of the year:
http://www.fasterskier.com/training.php?id=671

If this method of (compressed) VO2 block interval training
really works - and I´m not saying it cannot work - shouldn´t
it work for runners, too?

Works for what distance? Though short distance speed surely will be
improved by a maximized VO2, and though one must have sufficient VO2 for any
race distance, isn't anaerobic threshold the more limiting factor for
endurance races?

Quoted message said:

Doing as many as seven interval sessions in five days would
obviously put a tremendous load on one´s legs if all of the
sessions were done by running, but I suppose there´s no
reason why a runner couldn´t do them by "crosstraining" in
order to diminish the risk of injury.

Wouldn't this much speed training severely limit endurance capacity?
Granted, the use of cross-training in these frequent V02 sessions would
somewhat mitigate running-specific endurance capacity damage, but you cannot
achieve VO2 level efforts without the legs. Chances are you would either 1)
wear out the legs, or 2) build non-specific anaerobic muscle mass that will
slow you down in your main sport.

Quoted message said:

Note that this method is said to be suitable for lesser
mortals and sparetime athletes as well, with the proviso
that one has done some interval training previously and
that one takes a more modest bite )such as 4-5 sessions in
5 days followed by a 3 days of recovery and 3 sessions in
3 days to complete the block.

The concept is interesting because it reminds me of discussions this summer
in rec.running about how the Kenyan athletes train. Those discussions
centered around more frequent anaerobic threshold level training, while this
is focused similarly on V02.

I highly doubt that frequent VO2 sessions are suitable for "sparetime"
athletes. It reminds me of the "HITT" weight control workout that are
supposed to rev up your metabolism, etc. Most spare time athletes will only
get injured following such plans. It would obviously make anyone faster for
short distances, if their body can sustain those levels of intensity, though
it will very probably ruin any endurance capacity gained unless very well
managed.

-Tony

Tony <qtrader2@(remove)hotmail.com> wrote:
......

Quoted message said:

Works for what distance? Though short distance speed surely will be
improved by a maximized VO2, and though one must have sufficient VO2 for any
race distance, isn't anaerobic threshold the more limiting factor for
endurance races?

I was thinking the same.

Personally, lately, I've been experiencing this on my runs where
my lungs feel like they could go on forever but my legs start
burning due to the lactic acid buildup. I think my lactic acid
tolerance level is low. So, now I'm trying to concentrate on
lactate threshold runs more than in the past.

jobs

Anders Lustig said:

...at least if you´re a crosscountry skier and up with what´s
happening in the very forefront of endurance training science
or just hip to what appears to be the hit of the year:
http://www.fasterskier.com/training.php?id=671

If this method of (compressed) VO2 block interval training
really works - and I´m not saying it cannot work - shouldn´t
it work for runners, too?

Doing as many as seven interval sessions in five days would
obviously put a tremendous load on one´s legs if all of the
sessions were done by running, but I suppose there´s no
reason why a runner couldn´t do them by "crosstraining" in
order to diminish the risk of injury.

It would be interesting to try it. Sort of like an extreme form
of periodisation -- you have a short intense push, followed by
a consolidation period. If you have a fairly good base going in,
it might be feasible.

I think the way to do this would be to combine the intervals
with a milage drop, so you don't get too beaten up by the sessions.

E.g. here's a brief outline of how I'd attempt it (if I did)

Week 1-6: build to 70 miles per week, tempo run per week
Week 7-12: 2 interval sessions/week, maintain milage
Week 13-14: intervals 6 days/week, 50 miles
Week 15-16: 60 miles, including maintenance interval work
Week 17-20: repeat
Week 21-24: sharpening/racing. Keep milage at 50mpw.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

(Anders Lustig) said:

Doing as many as seven interval sessions in five days would
obviously put a tremendous load on one´s legs if all of the
sessions were done by running, but I suppose there´s no
reason why a runner couldn´t do them by "crosstraining" in
order to diminish the risk of injury.

They don't go into any great details of the exact structure of the
blocks or about how many blocks are to be done per year or what "normal"
means when applied to the training weeks between blocks. They do mention
doing two VO2max sessions/week to maintain performance, but I thought
that it had been shown to be unnecessary - one every 7-10 days being
enough to maintain VO2max, in running at least.

Also, the very first sentence has me slightly worried

"In the previous two articles in this series, we wrote that an
athlete’s maximal oxygen uptake - VO2max - is the most important element
of aerobic performance."

this isn't exactly right for running. vVO2max, the speed at which V02max
is first solicited, is far more important as it factors in running
efficiency. I very high VO2max is nice but doesn't mean you will
necessarily go faster than someone with a significantly lower one.

But maybe you get the best of both worlds with their approach? Maybe
that is due to the fact that they weren't doing all the sessions on a
single sport. Not only to keep it interesting, as the article states,
but to avoid the excess stress which I believed was unavoidable when
doing long VO2max sessions within 24 hours of each other (not to mention
on several contiguous days).

Maybe again a difference with running (as you noted re cross training).

FWIW I am very eager to learn more about moose-huffing; it sounds really
dirty :-)

Anders said:

...at least if you´re a crosscountry skier and up with what´s
happening in the very forefront of endurance training science
or just hip to what appears to be the hit of the year:
http://www.fasterskier.com/training.php?id=671

Before embarking on this plan, you might drop Sam an email to see if he needs
any subjects for overtraining research 🙁

Something along these lines, with runners, has indeed been done before, in
research by R C Hickson of the University of Illinois at Chicago during the
mid-70's (you can still find this in medline). Hickson had previously
untrained runners run as far as possible for 40 minutes, three days per week.
Another three days, they did VO2max intervals on an exercise bike. Hickson
obtained possibly the highest VO2max gain ever reported: over 40%, with a final
level greater than 60. However, follow-up research by others showed that the
gains stopped after about 10 weeks. The gains reported in the x-c ski story of
6%, though, fit with what Noakes says about the available VO2max gains for
previously trained runners.

There are three published studies (one by Billat) I've read suggesting that
concentrated training at HITT or vVo2max intensities is not the way to optimal
performance.

For someone starting out or with a history of low mileage, the approach
mentioned in the link might obtain rapid results--once. For trained runners, I
doubt that the eventual results would be more than could be obtained by doing 4
X1200 twice a week for 8-12 weeks. Is the same gain in 5 weeks worth a
potential case of shin splints, AT, PF, etc?

Lyndon
"Speed Kills...It kills those that don't have it!" --US Olympic Track Coach
Brooks Johnson

Tony' qtrader2@(remove)hotmail.com said:

Works for what distance?

All, except sprints maybe, I would think.

Quoted message said:

Though short distance speed surely will be
improved by a maximized VO2, and though one must have sufficient VO2 for any
race distance, isn't anaerobic threshold the more limiting factor for
endurance races?

Well aerobic threshold is some percentage of V02max (isn't it)? Without
touching that percentage, improving (speed at) VO2max will automatically
increase (speed at) threshold and, in fact, at all other intensities
(except sprints, again).

Quoted message said:

Wouldn't this much speed training severely limit endurance capacity?

If you're doing it all the time, maybe. But I don't believe they are
suggesting that.

Quoted message said:

Tony <qtrader2@(remove)hotmail.com> wrote:
.....

Quoted message said:

Works for what distance? Though short distance speed surely will be
improved by a maximized VO2, and though one must have sufficient VO2 for any
race distance, isn't anaerobic threshold the more limiting factor for
endurance races?

I was thinking the same.

Personally, lately, I've been experiencing this on my runs where
my lungs feel like they could go on forever but my legs start
burning due to the lactic acid buildup. I think my lactic acid
tolerance level is low. So, now I'm trying to concentrate on
lactate threshold runs more than in the past.

jobs

My understanding is that VO2max may be the overall limiting factor, but
the LT limits how much of that engine you can use. My understanding is
also that LT is more trainable than VO2max (at least after early
beginner gains). So which is more limiting at any given time, depends on
where you are in training, I think. In my "harder" (effort level)
workouts (when I do them, which has been minimal in the past), I usually
work on LT (very easy to do on my hills). In my xt class, I sometimes
get over 95% max hr for short periods (but some is artifact of hot
building).

Dot

--
"So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste
away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog

steve common said:

FWIW I am very eager to learn more about moose-huffing; it sounds really
dirty :-)

I'm curious too since this is all google turned up
http://www.hamline.edu/~wnk/nordic-ski/2002/msg13210.html
😉

Dot

--
"So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste
away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog

Dot dot.h@#duh?att.net said:

I'm curious too since this is all google turned up
http://www.hamline.edu/~wnk/nordic-ski/2002/msg13210.html
😉

And on a hunch I'd tried "moose-hoof", with barely more success
http://www.teamtoday.org/news.php?id=45

and it doesn't sound so horny as a spoonerism :-P

Dot dot.h@#duh?att.net said:

I'm curious too since this is all google turned up
http://www.hamline.edu/~wnk/nordic-ski/2002/msg13210.html
😉

And on a hunch I tried "moose-hoof", with a little more success
http://www.teamtoday.org/news.php?id=45

There's even a photo.

Dot wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

...........
My understanding is that VO2max may be the overall limiting factor, but
the LT limits how much of that engine you can use. My understanding is
also that LT is more trainable than VO2max (at least after early
beginner gains). So which is more limiting at any given time, depends on
where you are in training, I think. In my "harder" (effort level)
workouts (when I do them, which has been minimal in the past), I usually
work on LT (very easy to do on my hills). In my xt class, I sometimes
get over 95% max hr for short periods (but some is artifact of hot
building).

Dot

VO2 surely represents the upper limit of performance in shorter events. I
would say that for endurance events, say for distances above 10km for
running races, LT is more limiting. Athletes like Frank Shorter who had a
relatively low VO2 for an elite athlete, but was shown to have a very high
LT, demonstrate this principle. Athletes like Lance Armstrong who are
blessed with both a high VO2 and LT are the most likely to succeed over a
variety of distances. Armstrong is said to have a freakishly high lactate
tolerance, and this might explain why he has so much gas left in the tank
after hours of climbing in the Alps at somewhat lower intensities.

-Tony

steve common wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

Tony' qtrader2@(remove)hotmail.com said:

Works for what distance?

All, except sprints maybe, I would think.

Quoted message said:

Though short distance speed surely will be
improved by a maximized VO2, and though one must have sufficient VO2 for

any

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

race distance, isn't anaerobic threshold the more limiting factor for
endurance races?

Well aerobic threshold is some percentage of V02max (isn't it)? Without
touching that percentage, improving (speed at) VO2max will automatically
increase (speed at) threshold and, in fact, at all other intensities
(except sprints, again).

AT is often given as a percentage of MHR or VO2, and certainly it can't be
higher than VO2, but it is highly variable even in the same person,
depending on the training done, and on where one is in the training cycle.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Wouldn't this much speed training severely limit endurance capacity?

If you're doing it all the time, maybe. But I don't believe they are
suggesting that.

"In between these 10 – 12 days long time-blocks, the athletes’ training
would be much easier and “normal”. However, due to additional research
advice, the team continues to include 2-interval sessions per week to
maintain their higher max VO2."

As far as I could tell, it doesn't say how long there is between these 10-12
day blocks, and it didn't say what distance(s) the athletes were training
for, just that their VO2 improved. I was just parroting what I've read (a
dangerous thing no doubt) -- namely that if you do too much speedwork your
endurance will suffer; and conversely, if you do too much endurance work
your speed will suffer.

-Tony

steve common said:

Dot dot.h@#duh?att.net said:

I'm curious too since this is all google turned up
http://www.hamline.edu/~wnk/nordic-ski/2002/msg13210.html
😉

And on a hunch I tried "moose-hoof", with a little more success
http://www.teamtoday.org/news.php?id=45

There's even a photo.

Thanks. Hmmm, that sounds a little like what I do on snowshoes for short
stretches on uneven / drifted snow. And yes, that does provide a really
good workout 😉

Dot

--
"So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste
away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog

<< "So many people get stuck in the routine >>

....of taking this [censored] seriously.

_______
Blog, or dog? Who knows. But if you see my lost pup, please ping me!
<A
HREF="http://journals.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo">http://journal
s.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo</A>

<<
<< "So many people get stuck in the routine >>

....of taking this [censored] seriously. >>

....who's feeding the poor,
who's tending the sick?

_______
Blog, or dog? Who knows. But if you see my lost pup, please ping me!
<A
HREF="http://journals.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo">http://journal
s.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo</A>

steve common <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

They don't go into any great details of the exact structure of the
blocks or about how many blocks are to be done per year or what "normal"
means when applied to the training weeks between blocks.

My bad, I plain forgot these links (I was going to add them
before clicking on "Post message"😉:
The ABC of it all: http://www.teamtoday.org/news.php?id=38
A lady´s week of it: http://www.teamtoday.org/news.php?id=54
Definitions of training:
http://www.ussa.org/PublishingFolder/assets/Files/xctraining.pdf

Quoted message said:

Also, the very first sentence has me slightly worried:
"In the previous two articles in this series, we wrote that an
athlete?s maximal oxygen uptake - VO2max - is the most important element
of aerobic performance."

The previous article: http://www.fasterskier.com/training.php?id=621

Quoted message said:

this isn't exactly right for running. vVO2max, the speed at which V02max
is first solicited, is far more important as it factors in running
efficiency. I very high VO2max is nice but doesn't mean you will
necessarily go faster than someone with a significantly lower one.

But what if your running efficiency isn´t negatively affected
by this block interval stuff and your VO2max increases, wouldn´t
your vVO2max increase as well?

I´m also aware that if your old "vLT" had been n1% vVO2max and
your "new vLT" would then be n2% vVO2max, it wouldn´t necessarily
be the case that n1=n2. But wouldn´t the LT be dragged up _a bit_
by the increased VO2max?

Anyway, there apparently does exist a study that suggests a)
that this method can produce greater gains in VO2max than the
old "dispersed" method, and b) that this method is suitable not
only for the elites but the spare-time athletes, too.

Alas, it is probably so that XC skiing is so much different from
running that the relative importances of VO2max in the two
sports are quite dissimilar.

Quoted message said:

FWIW I am very eager to learn more about moose-huffing; it sounds really
dirty :-)

I hate to disappoint you, but it´s actually called moose-hoofing;
it´s something between walking and hopping up a hill with poles
in your hands: http://www.teamtoday.org/news.php?id=45

Anders (who is currently conducting an experiment of one, report to
follow at a later date...)

"Tony" <qtrader2@(remove)hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<Ynxgd.12$Ak2.9@trndny02>...

Quoted message said:

"In between these 10 ? 12 days long time-blocks, the athletes? training
would be much easier and ?normal?. However, due to additional research
advice, the team continues to include 2-interval sessions per week to
maintain their higher max VO2."

For example, the US XC team did three of these blocks in the
five months of summer training between May and October. (Their
racing season begins in December with the main event in late
February.)

Quoted message said:

As far as I could tell, it doesn't say how long there is between these 10-12
day blocks, and it didn't say what distance(s) the athletes were training
for, just that their VO2 improved.

The usual distances are 10-30km for the female and 15-50km
for the male skiers. In that sense at least, they are pure
endurance athletes, too.

Anders

Donovan Rebbechi <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

It would be interesting to try it. Sort of like an extreme form
of periodisation -- you have a short intense push, followed by
a consolidation period. If you have a fairly good base going in,
it might be feasible.

I was struck by a certain similarity to Arthur Lydiard´s
"speed and stamina" period; he had his runners do track
three sessions of intervals (of three miles net) per week
together with interval-like sessions of uphill bounds and
downhill "leg speed" work. (IIRC for up to four weeks.)

Quoted message said:

I think the way to do this would be to combine the intervals
with a milage drop, so you don't get too beaten up by the sessions.

Since the general idea is to do nothing else besides these
4x4s, there is a quantity drop designed in the method.

Each single session, 4x 4-5min with a 3-4min recovery, would
in itself be somewhat easier than most track interval sessions
in a conventional training program. The hill repeats included
in some programs can be tougher, too. It is pointed out that
these are not meant to be "killer, puke-on-your-shoes workouts".

Quoted message said:

E.g. here's a brief outline of how I'd attempt it (if I did)

Quoted message said:

Week 1-6: build to 70 miles per week, tempo run per week
Week 7-12: 2 interval sessions/week, maintain milage
Week 13-14: intervals 6 days/week, 50 miles
Week 15-16: 60 miles, including maintenance interval work
Week 17-20: repeat
Week 21-24: sharpening/racing. Keep milage at 50mpw.

Yes, most certainly something like that. You don´t jump in
at the deep end if you´ve never swam before, but if you´ve
done some interval work before W1, you could probably even
begin with a shorter (5 sessions in 6 days) compressed block
on W1.

All I can say at this point is that the idea is intriguing
and the specificity attractive. The only anecdotal evidence
related to running comes from a marathoner who improved his
time by 37mins to 3:30 who felt that "the intensity block
dramatically improved his speed at race pace made running
fast more comfortable". Now there´s probably much to be said
about the worth of such testimony, but it does appear that
this block thing has taken the US XC scene by storm and that
skiers of all levels are impressed by it.

It remains to be seen whether they´ll still be impressed in
the spring, though - but in any case I´d expect that the
research behind the fad to attract some running coaches as
well.

Anders