How and whether to mark time

"Brian Jones" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hey all; I ran my first marathon in October. I was a little disappointed in my time, so I have
decided to do better next time. I will be doing more speed work (and better) and putting in more
miles in the sumer of 2004. I live where winter is very real, with lots of ice and some snow.
Sometimes it is colder than some of you would believe.

My question: what do I do in the meantime. The only track in town is covered in ice and snow, as
are all running trails. I use ice joggers when neccessary. I run around town mostly and try to
stay off the highway. All this is a long way of saying that implementing a predictable running
pattern is pretty much impossible. I try never to miss a running day because of weather, but how
far and how fast are big questions.

I am running a bit over 20 miles/week, and I can keep it from 15-25 most of the winter. Most runs
are 5k-5.5 miles. On occasion I will toss in a 10 miler if the weather is exceptional. I have not
been varying my speed much, as speed can be really difficult (read: dangerous) to achieve under
these conditions. But is there anything I can or should be doing to get a leg up on my training
for next summer so that I peak in early October?

Best crosstraining would be on a treadmill. Could pick one up used, since most do not get purchased
by serious runners. Those in the nearby gym go to 12 mph and 15% grade, with manual or preprogrammed
courses. If a cheap one goes up to 9 or 10 mph and 3-6% grade, you can develop a tremendous mileage
base. Then Nordic skiing, snowshoeing, ..., Grete Waitz, Ingrid Kristiansen(sp?) come to mind. You
can skip rope indoors if you know how, play squash/racketball/basketball if vigorous, ... Other
indoor CV machines: climbers, steppers, elliptical, rowers, bicycles, aerobics classes, spinning
classes, ... Run the stairs in a taller building, indoor soccer, lacrosse, tennis?, hockey,
speedskating, rollerblading, ... If there is a gym with basketball courts, play full court. Only a
runner would enjoy running to center court, approaching the basket, shooting, rebounding and
repeating this cycle over and over. Though not much of a basketball player, my accuracy improved
noticeably when doing this.

These can help: keep CV fitness, control weight, build muscles that protect you from running
injury, ...

Also they provide a seasonal break from running to give you longevity in the sport.

Build quads for hill running using a bike or climber, build VO2Max using a non impact regimen, build
lower leg strength and speed with rope skipping, soccer, .., build endurance and even ultra
endurance with cycling.

If training for shorter distances, weight training should be beneficial.

Quoted message said:

Your advice will be greatly appreciated.

Brian Jones

In article said:

Hey all; I ran my first marathon in October. I was a little disappointed in my time, so I have
decided to do better next time. I will be doing more speed work (and better) and putting in more
miles in the sumer of 2004. I live where winter is very real, with lots of ice and some snow.
Sometimes it is colder than some of you would believe.

My question: what do I do in the meantime. The only track in town is covered in ice and snow, as
are all running trails. I use ice joggers when neccessary. I run around town mostly and try to
stay off the highway. All this is a long way of saying that implementing a predictable running
pattern is pretty much impossible. I try never to miss a running day because of weather, but how
far and how fast are big questions.

I am running a bit over 20 miles/week, and I can keep it from 15-25 most of the winter. Most runs
are 5k-5.5 miles. On occasion I will toss in a 10 miler if the weather is exceptional. I have not
been varying my speed much, as speed can be really difficult (read: dangerous) to achieve under
these conditions. But is there anything I can or should be doing to get a leg up on my training
for next summer so that I peak in early October?

Question: what is the highest milage you averaged for a 12 week period last year ? Unless you've
done a substantial amount of high milage training, you will continue to improve even on a fairly low
training load if you're consistent. I wouldn't bother trying to get in speed work.

PS there's always treadmills, you know. You could be doing 40mpw plus if you used a treadmill.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

Brian Jones said:

Hey all; I ran my first marathon in October. I was a little disappointed in my time, so I have
decided to do better next time. I will be doing more speed work (and better) and putting in more
miles in the sumer of 2004. I live where winter is very real, with lots of ice and some snow.
Sometimes it is colder than some of you would believe.

I think your marathon was Twin Cities? Does that mean you live in Minnesota? I'm just trying to get
a handle on "colder than some of you would believe" actually means. The Fairbanks, AK, running group
has a fairly active running program all winter, although they may shorten the distances if the
weather gets cold - as in -40 to -50F. (snowfree mid-May to mid-Sept) I live in the banana belt
farther south where it usually only gets down to -20F at the coldest, although there's no races.
Maybe I'm not in the "some"? 😉

Can you give us an idea of when you are generally snow/ice free - to see how long this "winter"
period is and how much time between then and your marathon? I know that's hard to do because we are
sometimes almost snow free in March but can have snow on the ground and more snow coming down in mid-
May. But I can generally expect snow-free running on roads by late April although lower elevation
trails may not be past breakup until May.

Do you have an idea what needs to be improved to be faster? Were your legs tired? out of breath?
poor pacing? ...? I'm going to guess that strength and endurance can be worked on.

Quoted message said:

My question: what do I do in the meantime. The only track in town is covered in ice and snow, as
are all running trails. I use ice joggers when neccessary. I run around town mostly and try to
stay off the highway. All this is a long way of saying that implementing a predictable running
pattern is pretty much impossible.

I can relate to this.

My general approach to training is to have an outline schedule based on where I am and where I'm
trying to get and not sweat the details of which run gets run on which day - just as long as the
goal for that week or month gets met, sorta. And if I fall behind because of whatever, then I
consider whether I need to adjust longer-term goals. I build a fair amount of slack into winter
schedule to accommodate weather so short-term variation may not affect long-term, but it may,
depending on recovery rates. Goals are in terms of time, not distance, since a winter snowshoe run
will take 2x as long as summer run for the same distance.

I do what I can when I can. Most training books that I've seen, like Daniels and Noakes, suggest
flexibility in schedule. If freezing rain is forecast Fri, I try to get that run in on Thurs or
whatever. Hill work in winter may be in subdivision, while summer hill work can be in the mountains.

Where I am, we have both paved and gravel roads, which differ in their snow/ice, dry/mud
composition. Also slope and aspect will affect the amount of ice or snow or mud. Some roads are
better maintained than others. I'll pick my routes accordingly.

Based on this group's recommendations 2 yr ago when I was first starting more structured running, I
don't worry about speed work in the winter. Actually I don't do traditional speed work in summer
either, but that's because I'm more interested in hilly trail running and focus on hills, which are
also known as "speed training in disguise".

If your trails are covered in snow, consider snowshoeing (running or walking) or xc skiing on them -
building time as need be. Snowshoe running is an incredible strength builder although may have a
little different form if the snow is deep. xc skiing has a lot of similar form to running, esp. if
you're breaking trail - and none of the pounding (good for recovery, but at the same time doesn't
strengthen them in the same way). Both will help cardiovascular system since your heart and lungs
are being used and many of the large leg muscles are being used (develop mitochondria, capillaries,
etc) although the neuromuscular action is a little different.

Last year and this year, I've participated in a 2-hr cross-training program once a week where which
includes plyometric-like drills (skipping, jumping over obstacles, diagonal jumps, backward running,
dexterity drills, etc) and circuit training. I find it helpful to maintain some dexterity in winter
while otherwise running/snowshoeing/xc skiing in snow of various depths in the dark. Parts of the
drills focus on strength. I may do this for a few weeks, then take a couple weeks where I do more
endurance work - mix of running, snowshoeing, or xc skiing so I can get outside during daylight.
Then switch back. It keeps things fresh for me.

Between this class, things my physical therapist taught me (stretch and strength), and a few other
sources, I've found exercises that help strengthen weak or imbalanced muscles and develop
flexibility in others so that when summer comes, I can maximize use of minimal available time (I'm
field ecologist so don't get much running in in summer). Simple things like lunges with weights in
multiple directions (3 planes of motion), single-legged squat balances with eyes closed
(proprioceptive drills), toe or heel (on slope, with weights) raises, stability ball, etc. This help
with injury prevention.

I used to take out a 1-month membership in local fitness center during the iciest month of the year.
I would still run (and usually bike) outdoors at that time, but it would usually be picking between
ice patches, not relaxing, and low quality as far as training is concerned, but I was outside and
that is important to me. The fitness center gave me a place to cut loose for a couple days a week
(also doing some physical therapy). I'd use the versaclimber (=hill training) (plus PT stuff) since
nobody else wanted to use it and there was generally a 20-min limit.

Look at periodization of your program. pponline.co.uk0800.htmOpen ↗
pponline.co.uk0147.htmOpen ↗

Build strength and endurance before you embark on your next marathon training schedule. See what
kind of base mileage they start out with and get there. Start with your race date, figure out how
far back your schedule needs to start, then figure what you need to do between now and then to reach
adequate base mileage.

On days when you have good running conditions, you might do some fartleks - run on snow / walk the
ice. But otherwise, I wouldn't worry about "speed" work since I've got a feeling you have more than
enough time to do that in snow-free conditions before your race. Focus on recovering from last year
and building strength and aerobic base.

It's possible to do "hard" workouts, like snowshoe running intervals, without going fast. That is,
snowshoeing (even walking) may pull your hr up to the same as steady state running. It wouldn't take
much of an effort (at least for me) to do LT with them. But benefits to these systems may be lost
before race unless you continue to do them. I'd focus more on strength.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Donovan Rebbechi <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Brian Jones wrote:

Question: what is the highest milage you averaged for a 12 week period last year ? Unless you've
done a substantial amount of high milage training, you will continue to improve even on a fairly
low training load if you're consistent.

I will have to check, but I would guess that the number is about 30 miles per week.

Quoted message said:

I wouldn't bother trying to get in speed work.

This is maybe my main question. Can I maintain things at my 20 mpw rate and then in the spring do
enough speed work and long runs to be ready in October?

By the way, Donovan, thanks for the recommendation on the Noakes book. I hinted successfully and my
wife gave it to me for my birthday last week. Lots of material, but I am working my way through the
applicable sections. What a great resource.

Quoted message said:

PS there's always treadmills, you know. You could be doing 40mpw plus if you used a treadmill.

I know this sounds like I am a weenie, but I think I would go out of my mind. I used a NordicTrak
skier for years and almost had to have myself committed. I really need to do this outside.

Thanks much. Brian Jones

Dot <dot.h@#att.net> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I think your marathon was Twin Cities? Does that mean you live in Minnesota?

Yes.

I'm just trying to get a handle on "colder than some of you

Quoted message said:

would believe" actually means.

You know, I thought of you when I wrote that sentence, and that is precisely why I said "some." I am
in eastern SD (USA) and it gets as cold as -20F and it is almost always windy. There are zero hills.

Quoted message said:

Can you give us an idea of when you are generally snow/ice free - to see how long this "winter"
period is and how much time between then and your marathon?

I should be ready ot go by April 1, or so, and the marathon is first week in October.

Quoted message said:

Do you have an idea what needs to be improved to be faster? Were your legs tired? out of breath?
poor pacing? ...? I'm going to guess that strength and endurance can be worked on.

The biggest factors, I believe, were a couple of mental errors having to do with taking on fuel and
lining up at the start. Eliminating those two would probably have given me several minutes
advantage.

Beyond that, I think that I just didn;t train hard enough. I think my speed work was insufficient in
amount and intensity. I think I did not run enough miles. I was using a program that had my peak
weekly mileage at 38, I think.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I don't worry about speed work in the winter.

I approach winter training much as you do: flexibility, keeping an eye on the forecast, etc. But I
guess my real question is: is it OK if I don't worry about anything but my 20 miles/week until
spring. It sounds like you think it is OK to just maintain until better weather.

(good stuff snipped)

Thanks, Dot.

Brian Jones

"Bill" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"> Best crosstraining would be on a treadmill.

I really have trouble with treadmills. It just seems like a run takes forever. I will be OK going
outside to run most days, but my mileage just won't get much over 20 mpw until spring.

(snipped lots of good ideas)

I live in the hinterlands so to speak. There are no gymns, no clubs, no classes of any kind.

Quoted message said:

These can help: keep CV fitness, control weight, build muscles that protect you from running
injury, ...

Thanks, Bill. This seems like what I should be doing. I appreciate the help.

Brian Jones

Brian Jones said:

Dot <dot.h@#att.net> wrote in message news:<wJbGb.522387$0v4.22096650@bgtnsc04-
news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...

Quoted message said:

You know, I thought of you when I wrote that sentence, and that is precisely why I said "some."

Blush 😉

I am in eastern SD (USA) and it gets as

Quoted message said:

cold as -20F and it is almost always windy. There are zero hills.

Quoted message said:

Can you give us an idea of when you are generally snow/ice free - to see how long this "winter"
period is and how much time between then and your marathon?

I should be ready ot go by April 1, or so, and the marathon is first week in October.

About 6 months, including 2-3 wk taper. I haven't done a marathon, but just did some quick math
based on your 10-mile long run on April 1, then increasing 10% every other week (or 20% / month),
generally considered a maximum increase. That puts you at 21 mile long run by 8/1 and 24.8 by
9/1. But, I have a feeling somewhere in there you may want to make the increases more conservative,
like 10% every 3 wks or 5% every 2 wks. So one should be able to get in low 20's by the time
it's time to taper. Although I haven't done a marathon, I'm a believer in having long runs of
adequate length and would be aiming for mid 20's myself. Others feel that low 20's is ok, and
it may be. But you do need to have them long enough to test food / fuel. Whatever, it's
suggesting that your long run should be at least 10 miles by 4/1. The fact that you've already
done 1 marathon and hence run these distances before should be on your side.

If one assumes that long run should be no more than one-half your total mileage / time for the week
- others suggest less, like 30%, then 20 mpw (=2*10) is a marginal starting point on 4/1.

If it were me, I'd try to get a little larger base, esp. if you don't have any injuries. Having pain-
free running in winter would be a higher priority. Maybe things would start being easier in March
that you could start inching up then, even if it's more runs, although the long one is key.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Do you have an idea what needs to be improved to be faster? Were your legs tired? out of breath?
poor pacing? ...? I'm going to guess that strength and endurance can be worked on.

The biggest factors, I believe, were a couple of mental errors having to do with taking on fuel

This is something that'll be best to re-test in spring - temperatures that might be near what you'd
be racing in. Summer might be hotter. While you can do some of these things in winter, things always
taste good then and you won't have the effect of a couple hours of running in warmer weather when
things just work differently.

and lining up at the start. Eliminating

Quoted message said:

those two would probably have given me several minutes advantage.

Beyond that, I think that I just didn;t train hard enough. I think my speed work was insufficient
in amount and intensity. I think I did not run enough miles. I was using a program that had my
peak weekly mileage at 38, I think.

You need to have base before substantial speed work and most programs only do that for a peak phase
before the race although there is some intermixed earlier. 38 mpw sounds low to me, based on the
general suggestions of thumb (long run < 50% of total miles, minimum long run length of 20+ miles).
Based on your previous time of 4+ hrs, that might put your long run at >3 hrs, which some don't
recommend, but it doesn't look like it would be that much longer and with a larger base, it may be
less. I'm just inserting some caveats that I've seen here.

IMHO, you might want to find a program that has a larger weekly mileage peak if one believes the
rules of thumb. OR if you do some other cross-training, there might be some carry-over. OR look at
2-wk microcycles where one week has the long run and the other week doesn't and consider the
percentage based on that.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I don't worry about speed work in the winter.

I approach winter training much as you do: flexibility, keeping an eye on the forecast, etc. But I
guess my real question is: is it OK if I don't worry about anything but my 20 miles/week until
spring. It sounds like you think it is OK to just maintain until better weather.

Based on above calculations, I think it would be good if you could get a little more in - or some
type of cross-training - or maybe try to start building a little in March. Other people may think it
needs more / less mileage. But trying to fight mother nature is a no-win situation. I do what is
suitable for the weather and my experience and set my goals accordingly.

FWIW, our longest races are in winter - 1100 miles from Big Lake to Nome in late Feb-early
March (22+ days). The ultra running folks in Anchorage sometimes use ice axes on their runs in
the mountains this time of year. So people *do* train and race in these conditions. Color me
much wimpier
🙂 Fairbanks has much shorter races at -50F. But most people don't push
the ice-on-sidewalk issue very far. IMHO, there's too many other ways to have fun and maintain /
improve conditioning in winter.

Lorne in Edmonton (hasn't posted in many months - anybody heard from him?) is amazing in what he
trains and races in. He follows a schedule fairly religiously, including some speed work in winter,
I think, but I got the impression his streets / sidewalks were fairly well maintained so footing
wasn't as much of an issue. For me, I really enjoy xc skiing and showshoeing, so I may do a lot of
that in years where we have decent snow. For me, running is recreation, and if I'm fighting ice,
etc., it isn't as much fun. For me, I'm better off just working with mother nature and using what
she provides for recreation.

Caveat: I haven't done a marathon and am regurgitating some of what I've read here in terms of
general guidelines as a starting point for your thinking. Everyone is different.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Brian Jones said:

Donovan Rebbechi <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

PS there's always treadmills, you know. You could be doing 40mpw plus if you used a treadmill.

I know this sounds like I am a weenie, but I think I would go out of my mind. I used a NordicTrak
skier for years and almost had to have myself committed. I really need to do this outside.

I can relate to this. While I recognize benefits from the once-a-week cross-training class, I almost
didn't start it this year since it was indoors. My recovery time from it last year was sufficiently
long that it really negatively impacted my longer outdoor activities. They have it in a different
time slot this year, more running-specific drills, and it's working better for me (plus I've adapted
to some of the drills and not rehabbing AT), but every few weeks, I don't go so I can do more longer
activities outdoors that help endurance. The cross-training helped me push LT for about 20 min, but
I lost endurance for 2-hr events. I'm more interested in endurance. This is the best snow we've had
in several years and I ain't gonna waste it indoors 🙂

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

In article said:

Donovan Rebbechi <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Brian Jones wrote:

Question: what is the highest milage you averaged for a 12 week period last year ? Unless you've
done a substantial amount of high milage training, you will continue to improve even on a fairly
low training load if you're consistent.

I will have to check, but I would guess that the number is about 30 miles per week.

Quoted message said:

I wouldn't bother trying to get in speed work.

This is maybe my main question. Can I maintain things at my 20 mpw rate and then in the spring do
enough speed work and long runs to be ready in October?

The more you do now, the more you'll be able to build up to later. 30mpw is ideal -- you'd maintain
and even improve your fitness with this. Otherwise, go with 20.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

PS there's always treadmills, you know. You could be doing 40mpw plus if you used a treadmill.

I know this sounds like I am a weenie, but I think I would go out of my mind.

Hard to tell if you don't try it (-; Get in 2x4 mile runs each week on the mill and then 22mpw
outdoors and that's 30mpw. You could even use the 'mill for tempo runs or tempo-paced (easy)
intervals, or hill workouts, which would make the workouts less boring. It's pretty easy to fill up
4 miles, use your imagination.

Quoted message said:

I used a NordicTrak skier for years and almost had to have myself committed. I really need to do
this outside.

Then do it outside. But don't whine about how you can't train outside and whine about how you cant
train inside. *That's* being a weenie.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

In article said:

"Bill" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]-
berlin.de>...

Quoted message said:

"> Best crosstraining would be on a treadmill.

I really have trouble with treadmills. It just seems like a run takes forever. I will be OK going
outside to run most days, but my mileage just won't get much over 20 mpw until spring.

(snipped lots of good ideas)

I live in the hinterlands so to speak. There are no gymns, no clubs, no classes of any kind.

Tried cross-country skiing ?

--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

In article said:

theoretical models and all this [censored]...and over what? Really...what's "at risk" here?...where's
the "peril" and concern justifying all this analysis? Good lord....give me a break. If the guy
can't go out until March, that still gives him 8 months to train outside. How much friggen time do
you want?

One year would be ideal. The best thing he could do now is to spend several weeks running 30mpw or
so. But if he can do 20mpw, that's still pretty good.

Quoted message said:

Curious...what's all this commotion over? Let's talk times here. What are your current times and
what's your goal?

No idea what his goal is. His previous time was 4:14 or something. He wanted under 4hrs. I've little
doubt he'll do at least that well.

Quoted message said:

Honestly...if we're going to dissect and analyze this to death (as it has been)..seems to me we
should connect objectives/times to this....no? Look, I wish the guy well and all....but
c'mon....the guys worried about a marathon that's 10+ months away.....

The point is that he could essentially do a an extra training cycle before the marathon. That is, he
could do a buildup, and run a good half-marathon or 10k, and then prepare for the marathon. That's
what I'm doing anyway -- aiming to peak for Boston, then do another full cyclce for the marathon.
The point is that this will help him build up his overall fitness before marathon training.

Quoted message said:

I say it's a non-issue if you can't run outside until March or April for an October Marathon.

Yeah, but how many months do you spend preparing for marathons ?

Quoted message said:

A total NON-ISSUE as long as you have a proper diet and maintain your cardio / stamina via jumping
rope over the Winter. Instead of running for 1 hour outside...jump rope inside for 1 hour and
you'll be fine over the winter.

Cross-training is certainly a good option, I'd agree with that.

Brian -- how about jumping rope for 1hr/week or so, on top of the 20 miles you're doing?

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

Donovan Rebbechi <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Brian -- how about jumping rope for 1hr/week or so, on top of the 20 miles you're doing?

Well, I don't dare whine about it, do I? 😉

Brian Jones

Quoted message said:

Cheers,

Donovan Rebbechi <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Then do it outside. But don't whine about how you can't train outside and >whine about how you
cant train inside. *That's* being a weenie.

Well, now, i didn't really intend to whine about running outside. I simply explained (as background
for my real question) the challenges I will face in outdoor running over the next few wintry months.

But OK, I did (quite intentionally) whine about the treadmill.

Brian Jones

If available, xc skiing will do you almost as good as running....better if it means you get longer
workouts in. Just make sure you switch back to mostly running at least 1.5 months before your
marathon, if not 2. Andy Hass

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Dot dot.h@#att.net said:

Brian Jones said:

Hey all; I ran my first marathon in October. I was a little disappointed in my time, so I have
decided to do better next time. I will be doing more speed work (and better) and putting in more
miles in the sumer of 2004. I live where winter is very real, with lots of ice and some snow.
Sometimes it is colder than some of you would believe.

I think your marathon was Twin Cities? Does that mean you live in Minnesota? I'm just trying to
get a handle on "colder than some of you would believe" actually means. The Fairbanks, AK, running
group has a fairly active running program all winter, although they may shorten the distances if
the weather gets cold - as in -40 to -50F. (snowfree mid-May to mid-Sept) I live in the banana
belt farther south where it usually only gets down to -20F at the coldest, although there's no
races. Maybe I'm not in the "some"? 😉

If it he does live in the Twin Cities, there are *PLENTY* of indoor tracks. This can mean joining a
club, but I think some of the colleges have public nights; you might be able to pay $3-4 to use the
8 laps to the mile track in the U of M field house.

--Harold Buck

"I used to rock and roll all night, and party every day. Then it was every other day. . . ."

- Homer J. Simpson