Homeopathy

Is there an echo in this group?

"John Sankey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Some of these "homeopaths" as you called them, lost their licences
and are currently lab workers instead of health practicioners because
of the black arts practiced by this medical mafia. BTW: Homeopaths
dispense homeopathic remedies and have no professional status
anywhere I have been in N.America"

Yes, there are some quacks and incompetents amongst homeopaths, as
there are with any human endeavour. But, homeopathic treatments are
still very effective for the reduction of problems of substance
hypersensitivy - perhaps with 2/3 of those with EI/MCS that meets the
Cullen protocol, and at least that proportion of those with what are
now officially classed as severe allergies.

Personally, the only doctors I would describe as "medical mafia" are
those who refuse to accept that real health problems exist - severe
EI in particular. We still have far too many of them about.

While I assume Homeopathy is non-sense, the loophole in the law allowing it
makes possible products like Zicam. Zicam works, but they don't have theory
behind it squared away, so they sell it as homeopathic.

I favor liberal handling of alternative therapies.

"John Sankey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Some of these "homeopaths" as you called them, lost their licences
and are currently lab workers instead of health practicioners because
of the black arts practiced by this medical mafia. BTW: Homeopaths
dispense homeopathic remedies and have no professional status
anywhere I have been in N.America"

Yes, there are some quacks and incompetents amongst homeopaths, as
there are with any human endeavour. But, homeopathic treatments are
still very effective for the reduction of problems of substance
hypersensitivy - perhaps with 2/3 of those with EI/MCS that meets the
Cullen protocol, and at least that proportion of those with what are
now officially classed as severe allergies.

Personally, the only doctors I would describe as "medical mafia" are
those who refuse to accept that real health problems exist - severe
EI in particular. We still have far too many of them about.

Cubit said:

While I assume Homeopathy is non-sense, the loophole in the law allowing it
makes possible products like Zicam. Zicam works, but they don't have theory
behind it squared away, so they sell it as homeopathic.

Homeopathy is one the 13 things that don't make sense
http://www.newscientist.com/channel/space/mg18524911.600. There's
perhaps something to it, but what it is insn't clear, unless talk about
morpholigical fields and such.

There are only theories why Homeopathy works. It is still unproven why it
does. This is no different than most medicines dispensed by medical quacks.
SSRI medications are only understood by theories.
This is no different than atomic theory. See the key word there "theory"?

Nobody has ever see the inside of an atom or the atom itself, only the
results that cause people to formulat theories about what is really
happening.

In this light when you try to attack something you don't understand,
remember that most of your own so-called "scientific methods" are only based
on theory also.

"Cubit" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

While I assume Homeopathy is non-sense, the loophole in the law allowing

it

Quoted message said:

makes possible products like Zicam. Zicam works, but they don't have

theory

Quoted message said:

behind it squared away, so they sell it as homeopathic.

I favor liberal handling of alternative therapies.

"John Sankey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Some of these "homeopaths" as you called them, lost their licences
and are currently lab workers instead of health practicioners because
of the black arts practiced by this medical mafia. BTW: Homeopaths
dispense homeopathic remedies and have no professional status
anywhere I have been in N.America"

Yes, there are some quacks and incompetents amongst homeopaths, as
there are with any human endeavour. But, homeopathic treatments are
still very effective for the reduction of problems of substance
hypersensitivy - perhaps with 2/3 of those with EI/MCS that meets the
Cullen protocol, and at least that proportion of those with what are
now officially classed as severe allergies.

Personally, the only doctors I would describe as "medical mafia" are
those who refuse to accept that real health problems exist - severe
EI in particular. We still have far too many of them about.

"Pizza Girl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:1111857439.f1f78c0f4834327da35f961e19797d4a@teranews...

Quoted message said:

There are only theories why Homeopathy works. It is still unproven why it
does.

Incorrect. It has not been proven that homeopathy works.

Quoted message said:

This is no different than most medicines dispensed by medical quacks.

Incorrect. We know why most meds work.

Quoted message said:

SSRI medications are only understood by theories.

Correct. But this is different than homeopathic meds. We know SSRI meds
work. We don't have any good evidence that homeopathic meds work.

Quoted message said:

This is no different than atomic theory. See the key word there "theory"?

Wrong. Atomic theory is based on overwhelming evidence.

When discussing homeopathy, a much better word would be "conjecture." Or,
maybe, hypothesis.

Quoted message said:

Nobody has ever see the inside of an atom or the atom itself, only the
results that cause people to formulat theories about what is really
happening.

Actually, people have seen invidual atoms.

The theories about atomic structure have led to hypotheses that have been
extensively tested. When the hypotheses have been found incorrect, the
theories have been modified. Like when Newton's laws didn't quite hold up on
our understanding of space-time, they were revised by people like Albert
Einstein.

However, when homeopathy has not been shown to work.

Quoted message said:

In this light when you try to attack something you don't understand,
remember that most of your own so-called "scientific methods" are only
based
on theory also.

Yes. And the theory behind the scientific method is that theories can be
tested by carefully designing tests to see if the theories hold up.

Homeopathy has not been tested this way.

There is a book called "Voodoo Science" by Robert Park. I highly suggest you
read it.

Jeff

Well since there is no point arguing facts with you since you just spout
complete unfounded [censored] continuously I will treat you like all the rest
of the communicty. I guess that speaks for itself then...LOL

"Jeff" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Pizza Girl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:1111857439.f1f78c0f4834327da35f961e19797d4a@teranews...

Quoted message said:

There are only theories why Homeopathy works. It is still unproven why

it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

does.

Incorrect. It has not been proven that homeopathy works.

Quoted message said:

This is no different than most medicines dispensed by medical quacks.

Incorrect. We know why most meds work.

Quoted message said:

SSRI medications are only understood by theories.

Correct. But this is different than homeopathic meds. We know SSRI meds
work. We don't have any good evidence that homeopathic meds work.

Quoted message said:

This is no different than atomic theory. See the key word there

"theory"?

Quoted message said:

Wrong. Atomic theory is based on overwhelming evidence.

When discussing homeopathy, a much better word would be "conjecture." Or,
maybe, hypothesis.

Quoted message said:

Nobody has ever see the inside of an atom or the atom itself, only the
results that cause people to formulat theories about what is really
happening.

Actually, people have seen invidual atoms.

The theories about atomic structure have led to hypotheses that have been
extensively tested. When the hypotheses have been found incorrect, the
theories have been modified. Like when Newton's laws didn't quite hold up

on

Quoted message said:

our understanding of space-time, they were revised by people like Albert
Einstein.

However, when homeopathy has not been shown to work.

Quoted message said:

In this light when you try to attack something you don't understand,
remember that most of your own so-called "scientific methods" are only
based
on theory also.

Yes. And the theory behind the scientific method is that theories can be
tested by carefully designing tests to see if the theories hold up.

Homeopathy has not been tested this way.

There is a book called "Voodoo Science" by Robert Park. I highly suggest

you

Quoted message said:

read it.

Jeff

Pizza Girl said:

There are only theories why Homeopathy works. It is still unproven why it
does. This is no different than most medicines dispensed by medical quacks.
SSRI medications are only understood by theories.
This is no different than atomic theory. See the key word there "theory"?

And yet another word you don't understand. You think it means that
they're guessing, don't you? Poor illiterate child.

It's not that long ago when no one knew what the mechanism was for aspirin.

Quoted message said:

Nobody has ever see the inside of an atom or the atom itself, only the
results that cause people to formulat theories about what is really
happening.

Actually they have been seen. And even designed to look a certain way.
Pictures published in lots of magazines. Might want to look through the
archives of Scientific American. More research for you. <sigh> When will
it ever end...?

Quoted message said:

In this light when you try to attack something you don't understand,
remember that most of your own so-called "scientific methods" are only based
on theory also.

Hee hee...

It's "scientific method" - singular. And it's based on an empirical set
of rules that any normal person could understand. Skip around here - try
hypothesis, synthesis... that's enough for now. Tomorrow, we'll look at
more if you can handle it.

What you don't understand (and think you do) would fill the largest library.

Wow.

Pastorio

Quoted message said:

"Cubit" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

While I assume Homeopathy is non-sense, the loophole in the law allowing it
makes possible products like Zicam. Zicam works, but they don't have theory
behind it squared away, so they sell it as homeopathic.

I favor liberal handling of alternative therapies.

"John Sankey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Some of these "homeopaths" as you called them, lost their licences
and are currently lab workers instead of health practicioners because
of the black arts practiced by this medical mafia. BTW: Homeopaths
dispense homeopathic remedies and have no professional status
anywhere I have been in N.America"

Yes, there are some quacks and incompetents amongst homeopaths, as
there are with any human endeavour. But, homeopathic treatments are
still very effective for the reduction of problems of substance
hypersensitivy - perhaps with 2/3 of those with EI/MCS that meets the
Cullen protocol, and at least that proportion of those with what are
now officially classed as severe allergies.

Personally, the only doctors I would describe as "medical mafia" are
those who refuse to accept that real health problems exist - severe
EI in particular. We still have far too many of them about.

Jeff said:

"Pizza Girl" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

There are only theories why Homeopathy works. It is still unproven why it
does.

Quoted message said:

There is a book called "Voodoo Science" by Robert Park. I highly suggest you
read it.

Does it at least have nice pictures she could look at...?

Pastorio

Jeff said:

Quoted message said:

This is no different than most medicines dispensed by medical quacks.

Incorrect. We know why most meds work.

Why do statins work? Is it through inflamation or cholesteral or
something else? Does prozac work through seratonin or neurogensis? Why
does asprin work exactly? We know very little behind the actual process
of why things work.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

SSRI medications are only understood by theories.

Correct. But this is different than homeopathic meds. We know SSRI meds
work. We don't have any good evidence that homeopathic meds work.

Quoted message said:

This is no different than atomic theory. See the key word there "theory"?

Wrong. Atomic theory is based on overwhelming evidence.

When discussing homeopathy, a much better word would be "conjecture." Or,
maybe, hypothesis.

Quoted message said:

Nobody has ever see the inside of an atom or the atom itself, only the
results that cause people to formulat theories about what is really
happening.

Actually, people have seen invidual atoms.

The theories about atomic structure have led to hypotheses that have been
extensively tested. When the hypotheses have been found incorrect, the
theories have been modified. Like when Newton's laws didn't quite hold up on
our understanding of space-time, they were revised by people like Albert
Einstein.

However, when homeopathy has not been shown to work.

Quoted message said:

In this light when you try to attack something you don't understand,
remember that most of your own so-called "scientific methods" are only
based
on theory also.

Yes. And the theory behind the scientific method is that theories can be
tested by carefully designing tests to see if the theories hold up.

Homeopathy has not been tested this way.

There is a book called "Voodoo Science" by Robert Park. I highly suggest you
read it.

Jeff

"Jeff" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Pizza Girl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:1111857439.f1f78c0f4834327da35f961e19797d4a@teranews...

Quoted message said:

There are only theories why Homeopathy works. It is still unproven why it
does.

Incorrect. It has not been proven that homeopathy works.

Quoted message said:

This is no different than most medicines dispensed by medical quacks.

Incorrect. We know why most meds work.

Quoted message said:

SSRI medications are only understood by theories.

Correct. But this is different than homeopathic meds. We know SSRI meds
work. We don't have any good evidence that homeopathic meds work.

Quoted message said:

This is no different than atomic theory. See the key word there "theory"?

Wrong. Atomic theory is based on overwhelming evidence.

When discussing homeopathy, a much better word would be "conjecture." Or,
maybe, hypothesis.

Quoted message said:

Nobody has ever see the inside of an atom or the atom itself, only the
results that cause people to formulat theories about what is really
happening.

Actually, people have seen invidual atoms.

The theories about atomic structure have led to hypotheses that have been
extensively tested. When the hypotheses have been found incorrect, the
theories have been modified. Like when Newton's laws didn't quite hold up
on our understanding of space-time, they were revised by people like
Albert Einstein.

However, when homeopathy has not been shown to work.

Quoted message said:

In this light when you try to attack something you don't understand,
remember that most of your own so-called "scientific methods" are only
based
on theory also.

Yes. And the theory behind the scientific method is that theories can be
tested by carefully designing tests to see if the theories hold up.

Homeopathy has not been tested this way.

There is a book called "Voodoo Science" by Robert Park. I highly suggest
you read it.

Jeff

I can't comment on atomic theory (sure miss my late fiancé who was a nuclear
scientist specializing in nuclear safety inspection) and only have a small
comment on classical homeopathy. I have not used it on myself, but use it
to ensure good health for my dogs. Anecdotal as it is, we have "cured"
several problems in the dogs. What is significant here (to me) is that
there is no placebo effect in dogs. The scientist in my fiancé refused to
believe homeopathy had anything to do with it. Eventually he came around
although we did affectionately call it "voodoo".

René

"greg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Jeff said:

Quoted message said:

This is no different than most medicines dispensed by medical quacks.

Incorrect. We know why most meds work.

Why do statins work? Is it through inflamation or cholesteral or something
else? Does prozac work through seratonin or neurogensis? Why does asprin
work exactly? We know very little behind the actual process of why things
work.

In the body, there is certainly much more that we don't know than we know.

However, for aspirin, we know the main mechanisms of action. And that is
true for most drugs.

The difference between drugs and homeopathy is that we know drugs work. We
don't know that homeopathy works. In fact, there is no scientific basis by
which homeopathy would work.

Jeff

"Rene" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
(...)

Quoted message said:

I can't comment on atomic theory (sure miss my late fiancé who was a
nuclear scientist specializing in nuclear safety inspection) and only have
a small comment on classical homeopathy. I have not used it on myself,
but use it to ensure good health for my dogs. Anecdotal as it is, we have
"cured" several problems in the dogs. What is significant here (to me) is
that there is no placebo effect in dogs.

yeah, but you may have been treating the dogs differently because you
expected them to get bettr.

Quoted message said:

The scientist in my fiancé refused to believe homeopathy had anything to
do with it. Eventually he came around although we did affectionately call
it "voodoo".

The scientist in your fiance ws correct. Homeopathy doesn't work.

Jeff

Quoted message said:

René

greg said:

Jeff said:

Quoted message said:

This is no different than most medicines dispensed by medical quacks.

Incorrect. We know why most meds work.

Why do statins work? Is it through inflamation or cholesteral or

inhibits the first step in cholesterol synthesis (and the initial step
of ubiquinone synthesis, but since this (ubiquinone synthesis) happens
inside mitochondria, it is not affected by statins)

Quoted message said:

something else? Does prozac work through seratonin or neurogensis? Why
does asprin work exactly? We know very little behind the actual process
of why things work.

Aspirin primarily inactivates COX enzymes by chemically modification
of the active site binding the arachidonic acid so it cannot change AA
into PGG (that is further converted to PGH)

"greg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Cubit said:

While I assume Homeopathy is non-sense, the loophole in the law allowing

it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

makes possible products like Zicam. Zicam works, but they don't have

theory

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

behind it squared away, so they sell it as homeopathic.

Homeopathy is one the 13 things that don't make sense
http://www.newscientist.com/channel/space/mg18524911.600. There's
perhaps something to it, but what it is insn't clear, unless talk about
morpholigical fields and such.

Things don't need to make sense in order for them to work. That is the
problem with a lot of homeopathy in trying to make it fit into the
conventional medical science arena in order for it to gain acceptance. You
can not argue with success and if a treatment works then forget about trying
to make it sound conventional with medical jargon as it only makes people
more skeptical and not more accepting and the argument being if it is so
sound then why isn't conventional medicine doing it.

"greg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Jeff said:

Quoted message said:

This is no different than most medicines dispensed by medical quacks.

Incorrect. We know why most meds work.

Why do statins work? Is it through inflamation or cholesteral or
something else? Does prozac work through seratonin or neurogensis? Why
does asprin work exactly? We know very little behind the actual process
of why things work.

That's true which is why proving that something works is more important than
why something works. You want to know why something works in order to make
it better.

"Jeff" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"greg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Jeff said:

>This is no different than most medicines dispensed by medical quacks.

Incorrect. We know why most meds work.

Why do statins work? Is it through inflamation or cholesteral or

something

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

else? Does prozac work through seratonin or neurogensis? Why does asprin
work exactly? We know very little behind the actual process of why

things

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

work.

In the body, there is certainly much more that we don't know than we know.

However, for aspirin, we know the main mechanisms of action. And that is
true for most drugs.

We know some of the mechanisms of aspirin but we don't know how to relate it
phsiologically to all of aspirins effects clinically.
How is headache pain relieved by aspirin? Low levels can cause
anticoagulation and high levels can cause clotting.
We don't know why some people are aspirin resistant in those taking aspirin
to prevent MI.

Therapie. 2004 Nov-Dec;59(6):649-51. Related Articles, Links

[Aspirin (acetylsalicylic acid)-induced thrombocytopenia, an unknown adverse
effect]

Eur J Cardiothorac Surg. 2005 Apr;27(4):606-10. Epub 2005 Jan 19. Related
Articles, Links

Is cardiopulmonary bypass a reason for aspirin resistance after coronary
artery bypass grafting?

Zimmermann N, Kurt M, Wenk A, Winter J, Gams E, Hohlfeld T.

"Alf Christophersen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

greg said:

Jeff said:

>This is no different than most medicines dispensed by medical quacks.

Incorrect. We know why most meds work.

Why do statins work? Is it through inflamation or cholesteral or

inhibits the first step in cholesterol synthesis (and the initial step
of ubiquinone synthesis, but since this (ubiquinone synthesis) happens
inside mitochondria, it is not affected by statins)

Quoted message said:

something else? Does prozac work through seratonin or neurogensis? Why
does asprin work exactly? We know very little behind the actual process
of why things work.

Aspirin primarily inactivates COX enzymes by chemically modification
of the active site binding the arachidonic acid so it cannot change AA
into PGG (that is further converted to PGH)

That is only one enzyme system and there are others in which contradictory
physiological effects may become apparent depending on dosage and on
competing enzyme systems.
Why are some patients resistant to the effects of aspirin?
How does that relate to pain?

Quoted message said:

On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 17:26:58 GMT, "Jeff" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"Pizza Girl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:1111857439.f1f78c0f4834327da35f961e19797d4a@teranews...

Quoted message said:

There are only theories why Homeopathy works. It is still unproven why it
does.

Incorrect. It has not been proven that homeopathy works.

Quoted message said:

This is no different than most medicines dispensed by medical quacks.

Incorrect. We know why most meds work.

I dispute that! Most? We have some general vague ideas, even when we
know how an antibiotic may interfere with a bacterial capsule--there's
always more detail to learn. And many medications we have only a vague
idea how they work. Doesn't mean they don't work or shouldn't be used.
Any more than any other intervention that shows some sign of efficacy.

Homeopathy is weird but it seems to work. Enhancing placebo effect?
Maybe. If so, why not? And what the heck IS that--from a
psychoneuroimmunoendocrinological perspective??

George M. Carter

On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 17:24:29 -0800, "Robert" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

We know the effects and in most cases we don't know why.
Just because there is COX inhibition does not anwser all the hows.

Remember that if arachidonic acid is freed and not reacting with COX
anymore, arachidonic acid may undergo many other rearrangements,
almost all them with different physiologic effects.

Like reacting with lipoxygenase 5 giving more leukotrienes, inducing
traumatic shock, SRSA and other spectacular reactions.

Isoketal formation, isoprostanes, epoxides are even more classes of
signalling compoinds that may be formed in excessive amounts when COX
is inhibited or even inactivated (when inhibited, the time being
inactive is time dependent, while inactivated, the enzyme is killed
and must be replaced by new synthesis. SInce blood platelets do not
contain DNA or RNA, these cells are dead and cannot participate in
blood clotting anymore. Thus breaking the coagulation process and
clots formed can only be of a little size, while taking too much
inactivator, destroys completely the ability of coagulation. That's
why it is a bad idea to take more than a few mg aspirine at a timein
order to prevent heart attacks from clot formed. The dose should only
inactive the COX in about 5-10% of platelets that pass the blood
vessels btw. intestines and liver. Taking 10-50 mg will most often do
so, taking more will kill COX in too many blood platelets.