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Homeopathy

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
26 March 2005
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5 April 2005
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John Sankey
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  1. On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 12:29:29 -0800, "Robert" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    That is only one enzyme system and there are others in which contradictory
    physiological effects may become apparent depending on dosage and on
    competing enzyme systems.
    Why are some patients resistant to the effects of aspirin?
    How does that relate to pain?

    Only corticoids and other PLA2 knock out stuff are able to knock out
    the whole eicosanoid signalling system. That is a very bad idea to do.

    As long as PLA2 or other phospholipases that may free up PUFA involved
    in eicosanoid system are activated, you have problems.

  2. Not all Homeopathic Remedies are diluted to the point of non-existence.

    Not all Homeopathic Remedies, like medical toxins, work everytime on all
    patients.

    "GMCarter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 17:26:58 GMT, "Jeff" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:


    "Pizza Girl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:1111857439.f1f78c0f4834327da35f961e19797d4a@teranews...

    Quoted message said:

    There are only theories why Homeopathy works. It is still unproven why


    it

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    does.

    Incorrect. It has not been proven that homeopathy works.

    Quoted message said:

    This is no different than most medicines dispensed by medical quacks.

    Incorrect. We know why most meds work.

    I dispute that! Most? We have some general vague ideas, even when we
    know how an antibiotic may interfere with a bacterial capsule--there's
    always more detail to learn. And many medications we have only a vague
    idea how they work. Doesn't mean they don't work or shouldn't be used.
    Any more than any other intervention that shows some sign of efficacy.

    Homeopathy is weird but it seems to work. Enhancing placebo effect?
    Maybe. If so, why not? And what the heck IS that--from a
    psychoneuroimmunoendocrinological perspective??

    George M. Carter

  3. "Alf Christophersen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 17:24:29 -0800, "Robert" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    We know the effects and in most cases we don't know why.
    Just because there is COX inhibition does not anwser all the hows.

    Remember that if arachidonic acid is freed and not reacting with COX
    anymore, arachidonic acid may undergo many other rearrangements,
    almost all them with different physiologic effects.

    That is my point and those effects can differ.

    Quoted message said:


    Like reacting with lipoxygenase 5 giving more leukotrienes, inducing
    traumatic shock, SRSA and other spectacular reactions.

    Yes. COX reactions are different than other leukotrienes reactions. The COX
    can be inhibited with platelet inhibition but the endothelial lipoxygenase
    can also be inhibited in higher concentrations of apirin within the
    endothelial cells leading to platelet adherance. These are differences of
    competing prostacylcin inhibiton in endothelial cells vs COX inhibition in
    platelets.
    Even within COX1 and COX2 can be contradictory see below.

    Quoted message said:


    Isoketal formation, isoprostanes, epoxides are even more classes of
    signalling compoinds that may be formed in excessive amounts when COX
    is inhibited or even inactivated (when inhibited, the time being
    inactive is time dependent, while inactivated, the enzyme is killed
    and must be replaced by new synthesis. SInce blood platelets do not
    contain DNA or RNA, these cells are dead and cannot participate in
    blood clotting anymore. Thus breaking the coagulation process and
    clots formed can only be of a little size, while taking too much
    inactivator, destroys completely the ability of coagulation. That's
    why it is a bad idea to take more than a few mg aspirine at a timein
    order to prevent heart attacks from clot formed. The dose should only
    inactive the COX in about 5-10% of platelets that pass the blood
    vessels btw. intestines and liver. Taking 10-50 mg will most often do
    so, taking more will kill COX in too many blood platelets.


    Platelets are only one part of the equation with regards to COX and I was
    referring to endothelial cell levels. There is a normal anti-platelet
    anti-stick factor with endothelial cells where the blood circulates
    otherwise the platelets and everything else would stick.
    That is the prostaglandin levels within the cell.

    Curr Opin Pharmacol. 2005 Apr;5(2):204-10. Related Articles, Links

    Cardiovascular hazard and non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs.

    Wong D, [censored] M, Cheng Y, Fitzgerald GA.

    Institute for Translational Medicine and Therapeutics and the Department of
    Pharmacology, University of Pennsylvania, School of Medicine, Philadelphia,
    Pennsylvania, USA.

    Selective inhibitors of cyclooxygenase (COX)-2 depress prostacyclin (PGI(2))
    without a concomitant inhibition of platelet COX-1-derived thromboxane
    (Tx)A(2). Experiments in gene-deleted mice have shown that ablation of the
    PGI(2) receptor (the IP) predisposes to an exaggerated response to agonists
    which elevate blood pressure, accelerate atherogenesis and induce
    thrombosis. Such a class-based effect would be expected to be modulated by
    the underlying risk of cardiovascular disease in patients, elements of drug
    exposure, such as dose, duration of action and duration of dosing, and
    inter-individual variability of drug response. Five placebo-controlled
    trials of three structurally distinct selective inhibitors of COX-2 have
    revealed an increased hazard of myocardial infarction and stroke consistent
    with a mechanism-based class-specific cardiovascular hazard. Sustained
    inhibition of platelet TxA(2) by aspirin affords cardiovascular benefit,
    despite concomitant inhibition of PGI(2). Although there is no information
    from randomized placebo-controlled trials, traditional non-steroidal
    anti-inflammatory drugs, such as naproxen, dicofenac and ibuprofen, might
    differ in their effects of cardiovascular biology.

    PMID: 15780832 [PubMed - in process]

    Circulation. 2001 Aug 14;104(7):820-5. Related Articles, Links

    Effects of selective cyclooxygenase-2 inhibition on vascular responses and
    thrombosis in canine coronary arteries.

    Hennan JK, Huang J, Barrett TD, Driscoll EM, Willens DE, Park AM, Crofford
    LJ, Lucchesi BR.

    University of Michigan Medical School, Department of Pharmacology, Ann Arbor
    48109-0632, USA.

    BACKGROUND: Prostanoid synthesis via the action of cyclooxygenase-2 (COX-2)
    is a component of the inflammatory response. Prostacyclin, a product of
    COX-2 in vascular endothelium, has important physiological roles, such as
    increasing blood flow to injured tissues, reducing leukocyte adherence, and
    inhibiting platelet aggregation. We examined the possibility that selective
    COX-2 inhibition could suppress the protective effects of prostacyclin,
    resulting in an alteration of the hemostatic balance and vascular tone.
    METHODS AND RESULTS: Circumflex coronary artery thrombosis was induced in
    dogs by vascular electrolytic injury. Orally administered celecoxib (COX-2
    inhibition) or high-dose aspirin (HDA) (COX-1 and COX-2 inhibition) did not
    alter time to occlusive thrombus formation compared with controls (celecoxib
    77.7+/-7.2 minutes, HDA 72.0+/-18.5 minutes, control 93.0+/-21.8 minutes).
    Oral HDA with an endothelial recovery period (HDA-ER) (COX-1 inhibition)
    produced a significant increase in time to vessel occlusion (257.0+/-41.6
    minutes). The observed increase in time to occlusion was abolished when
    celecoxib was administered to animals dosed with HDA-ER (80.7+/-20.6
    minutes). The vasomotor effect of endothelium-derived prostacyclin was
    examined by monitoring coronary flow during intracoronary administration of
    arachidonic acid or acetylcholine. In celecoxib-treated animals,
    vasodilation in response to arachidonic acid was reduced significantly
    compared with controls. CONCLUSIONS: The results indicate important
    physiological roles for COX-2-derived prostacyclin and raise concerns
    regarding an increased risk of acute vascular events in patients receiving
    COX-2 inhibitors. The risk may be increased in individuals with underlying
    inflammatory disorders, including coronary artery disease.

    PMID: 11502709 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

  4. On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 11:38:22 -0800, "Robert" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:


    Even within COX1 and COX2 can be contradictory see below.

    Shows that using more than 50 mg doses is not a good idea in
    protection against heart diseases. Rather repeat the dose more often.
    The original paper if I remember correct used 25 mg doses, but all
    tablets available around here are either 250 mg or 300 mg.

    I hope to see some 25 mg pills in trade in future (and only allowed
    dose without prescriptions)

  5. "Alf Christophersen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 11:38:22 -0800, "Robert" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:


    Even within COX1 and COX2 can be contradictory see below.

    Shows that using more than 50 mg doses is not a good idea in
    protection against heart diseases. Rather repeat the dose more often.
    The original paper if I remember correct used 25 mg doses, but all
    tablets available around here are either 250 mg or 300 mg.

    I hope to see some 25 mg pills in trade in future (and only allowed
    dose without prescriptions)


    The point being is that aspirin was used long before they even knew COX.
    Then they came up with COX1 and COX2.
    In the future they will come up with COX3 and COX4 etc.
    Aspirin overdose by the way is associated with fever. They think it is
    related to the uncoupling of the electron transport chain.
    Low level fever reduction and with high levels you get a fever.
    To say that we know why aspirin works is an overstatement just because we
    know a few chemical reactions. There is a tendency to attribute everything
    to those reactions and formulate theories as to how it works in any given
    clinical situation. Those are just theories however and people have fallen
    in love with those theories but when they are taken to clinical applications
    then they start to fall apart like Vioxx.

  6. "GMCarter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 17:26:58 GMT, "Jeff" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:


    "Pizza Girl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:1111857439.f1f78c0f4834327da35f961e19797d4a@teranews...

    Quoted message said:

    There are only theories why Homeopathy works. It is still unproven why
    it
    does.

    Incorrect. It has not been proven that homeopathy works.

    Quoted message said:

    This is no different than most medicines dispensed by medical quacks.

    Incorrect. We know why most meds work.

    I dispute that! Most? We have some general vague ideas, even when we
    know how an antibiotic may interfere with a bacterial capsule--there's
    always more detail to learn. And many medications we have only a vague
    idea how they work. Doesn't mean they don't work or shouldn't be used.

    With the exception of psycoactive drugs, they are very few drugs where we
    don't know how they work.

    Of course, there is always more to learn. We are learning how the genes
    people have affect hwo well drugs work and what side effects they have.

    Just because there are more details to learn about every drug we use doesn't
    mean that we don't know how the drugs work.

    We know how gravity works, but there are plenty of more details to learn
    about gravity.

    Quoted message said:

    Any more than any other intervention that shows some sign of efficacy.

    Homeopathy is weird but it seems to work. Enhancing placebo effect?
    Maybe. If so, why not? And what the heck IS that--from a
    psychoneuroimmunoendocrinological perspective??

    Can you please provide the evidence that homeopathy really works? Like
    peer-reviewed literature with good studies.

    Jeff

    Quoted message said:

    George M. Carter

  7. "Pizza Girl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:1111949729.1921f2ff23136fcc72c461769659ea64@teranews...

    Quoted message said:

    Not all Homeopathic Remedies are diluted to the point of non-existence.

    Not all Homeopathic Remedies, like medical toxins, work everytime on all
    patients.

    No one ever claimed that any drug works every time.

    I know of no studies that conclusively show that homeopathy works. Do you?
    How about the peer-reviewed studies?

    Jeff

    Quoted message said:

    "GMCarter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 17:26:58 GMT, "Jeff" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:


    "Pizza Girl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:1111857439.f1f78c0f4834327da35f961e19797d4a@teranews...
    > There are only theories why Homeopathy works. It is still unproven why


    it

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > does.

    Incorrect. It has not been proven that homeopathy works.

    > This is no different than most medicines dispensed by medical quacks.

    Incorrect. We know why most meds work.

    I dispute that! Most? We have some general vague ideas, even when we
    know how an antibiotic may interfere with a bacterial capsule--there's
    always more detail to learn. And many medications we have only a vague
    idea how they work. Doesn't mean they don't work or shouldn't be used.
    Any more than any other intervention that shows some sign of efficacy.

    Homeopathy is weird but it seems to work. Enhancing placebo effect?
    Maybe. If so, why not? And what the heck IS that--from a
    psychoneuroimmunoendocrinological perspective??

    George M. Carter

  8. I know of no peer reviewed double blinded studies that show many drugs work,
    especially SSRI medications. The placebos do better than the real drug group
    a lof of the trials....

    Don't tell me about testing methods. They don't prove anything about
    effectiveness.

    I have seen some positive homeopathic remedy trials. Where? I couldn't tell
    you at this time. I don't need them. For $5 I can try almost any one of them
    and see if they work. If they don't I don't cry about it.

    If my $150 medications prescribed by my GP don't work I am a little [censored]. This happens too from time to time but less when I visit less.

    "Jeff" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Pizza Girl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:1111949729.1921f2ff23136fcc72c461769659ea64@teranews...

    Quoted message said:

    Not all Homeopathic Remedies are diluted to the point of non-existence.

    Not all Homeopathic Remedies, like medical toxins, work everytime on all
    patients.

    No one ever claimed that any drug works every time.

    I know of no studies that conclusively show that homeopathy works. Do you?
    How about the peer-reviewed studies?

    Jeff

    Quoted message said:

    "GMCarter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 17:26:58 GMT, "Jeff" <[email hidden]>
    wrote:

    >
    >"Pizza Girl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    >news:1111857439.f1f78c0f4834327da35f961e19797d4a@teranews...
    >> There are only theories why Homeopathy works. It is still unproven


    why

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    it

    Quoted message said:

    >> does.
    >
    >Incorrect. It has not been proven that homeopathy works.
    >
    >> This is no different than most medicines dispensed by medical


    quacks.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >
    >Incorrect. We know why most meds work.

    I dispute that! Most? We have some general vague ideas, even when we
    know how an antibiotic may interfere with a bacterial capsule--there's
    always more detail to learn. And many medications we have only a vague
    idea how they work. Doesn't mean they don't work or shouldn't be used.
    Any more than any other intervention that shows some sign of efficacy.

    Homeopathy is weird but it seems to work. Enhancing placebo effect?
    Maybe. If so, why not? And what the heck IS that--from a
    psychoneuroimmunoendocrinological perspective??

    George M. Carter

  9. Jeff said:

    I know of no studies that conclusively show that homeopathy works. Do you?
    How about the peer-reviewed studies?

    That's why it's in the list of 13 effects from bizzaro world. The
    article says they couldn't figure out why there was an effect, but there
    was.

  10. Robert said:

    The point being is that aspirin was used long before they even knew COX.
    Then they came up with COX1 and COX2.

    To further the point, if we actually really knew the effect of drugs we
    wouldn't need to do studies.

  11. "Pizza Girl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:1111981039.c3346b9e2a37f5757ace2ecc612b3ece@teranews...

    Quoted message said:

    I know of no peer reviewed double blinded studies that show many drugs
    work,
    especially SSRI medications. The placebos do better than the real drug
    group
    a lof of the trials....

    http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/links/doi/10.1046/j.1525-1497.1997.00064.x/abs/
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15303242

    Quoted message said:

    Don't tell me about testing methods. They don't prove anything about
    effectiveness.

    Correct. The methods don't prove squat.

    However, the results of the studies support the hypothesis that SSRIs help
    people with depression and other problems.

    Quoted message said:

    I have seen some positive homeopathic remedy trials. Where? I couldn't
    tell
    you at this time. I don't need them. For $5 I can try almost any one of
    them
    and see if they work. If they don't I don't cry about it.

    In other words, you can't back your claim.

    Quoted message said:

    If my $150 medications prescribed by my GP don't work I am a little [censored]
    off. This happens too from time to time but less when I visit less.

    unless your GP knows everything about you, like your genetic makeup,
    everything about the bacteria on and in your body, everything you have done
    in your entire life, every bactium and virus you have come in contact with,
    everything about every drug, etc., there is no way (s)he can prescribe
    anything with 100% certainty.

    Jeff

    Quoted message said:

    "Jeff" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Pizza Girl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:1111949729.1921f2ff23136fcc72c461769659ea64@teranews...

    Quoted message said:

    Not all Homeopathic Remedies are diluted to the point of non-existence.

    Not all Homeopathic Remedies, like medical toxins, work everytime on
    all
    patients.

    No one ever claimed that any drug works every time.

    I know of no studies that conclusively show that homeopathy works. Do
    you?
    How about the peer-reviewed studies?

    Jeff

    Quoted message said:

    "GMCarter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...
    > On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 17:26:58 GMT, "Jeff" <[email hidden]>
    > wrote:
    >
    > >
    > >"Pizza Girl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    > >news:1111857439.f1f78c0f4834327da35f961e19797d4a@teranews...
    > >> There are only theories why Homeopathy works. It is still unproven


    why

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    it
    > >> does.
    > >
    > >Incorrect. It has not been proven that homeopathy works.
    > >
    > >> This is no different than most medicines dispensed by medical


    quacks.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > >
    > >Incorrect. We know why most meds work.
    >
    > I dispute that! Most? We have some general vague ideas, even when we
    > know how an antibiotic may interfere with a bacterial capsule--there's
    > always more detail to learn. And many medications we have only a vague
    > idea how they work. Doesn't mean they don't work or shouldn't be used.
    > Any more than any other intervention that shows some sign of efficacy.
    >
    > Homeopathy is weird but it seems to work. Enhancing placebo effect?
    > Maybe. If so, why not? And what the heck IS that--from a
    > psychoneuroimmunoendocrinological perspective??
    >
    > George M. Carter
    >

  12. On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 03:20:04 GMT, "Jeff" <[email hidden]>
    wrote:

    snip

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I dispute that! Most? We have some general vague ideas, even when we
    know how an antibiotic may interfere with a bacterial capsule--there's
    always more detail to learn. And many medications we have only a vague
    idea how they work. Doesn't mean they don't work or shouldn't be used.

    With the exception of psycoactive drugs, they are very few drugs where we
    don't know how they work.

    I think that's a partial truth. We have SOME mechanisms of action for
    a lot of drugs, no doubt. But hardly a complete picture. I guess it
    depends on how one interprets the vague phrase "know how they work."

    Quoted message said:

    Of course, there is always more to learn. We are learning how the genes
    people have affect hwo well drugs work and what side effects they have.

    Agreed--and LOTS more to learn there. Fascinating fields.

    Quoted message said:

    Just because there are more details to learn about every drug we use doesn't
    mean that we don't know how the drugs work.

    Again--the phrase is vague.

    Quoted message said:

    We know how gravity works, but there are plenty of more details to learn
    about gravity.

    We know the EFFECTS of gravity but not how it works in the context of
    space-time, relativity, etc.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Any more than any other intervention that shows some sign of efficacy.

    Homeopathy is weird but it seems to work. Enhancing placebo effect?
    Maybe. If so, why not? And what the heck IS that--from a
    psychoneuroimmunoendocrinological perspective??

    Can you please provide the evidence that homeopathy really works? Like
    peer-reviewed literature with good studies.

    Can you provide the evidence that allopathic medicine really works?

    Not being flip--just trying to make the point that one could provide
    LOTS of evidence that allopathic medicine does NOT work. People die.
    Drugs fail. Etc.

    You could provide lots of evidence it DOES work. Means about as much.

    Meantime, what I can say is that I have in the past reviewed some
    human and animal studies where homoepathy was the intervention that
    appeared to show significant benefit for the studied indication. There
    are a handful of these, some DBPC. It begs the question of whether
    horses can experience the placebo effect!

    Does it prove homeopathy works? No. Does it support the potential of
    the underlying mechanism of action of "like cures like"? Partially but
    not completely.

    But like any research, it raises more questions.

    George M. Carter

  13. "greg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Robert said:

    The point being is that aspirin was used long before they even knew COX.
    Then they came up with COX1 and COX2.

    To further the point, if we actually really knew the effect of drugs we
    wouldn't need to do studies.

    Only if we knew every effect of the drugs on the body, including each and
    every side effect.

    Jeff

  14. "GMCarter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 03:20:04 GMT, "Jeff" <[email hidden]>
    wrote:

    snip

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I dispute that! Most? We have some general vague ideas, even when we
    know how an antibiotic may interfere with a bacterial capsule--there's
    always more detail to learn. And many medications we have only a vague
    idea how they work. Doesn't mean they don't work or shouldn't be used.

    With the exception of psycoactive drugs, they are very few drugs where we
    don't know how they work.

    I think that's a partial truth. We have SOME mechanisms of action for
    a lot of drugs, no doubt. But hardly a complete picture. I guess it
    depends on how one interprets the vague phrase "know how they work."

    A complete list of everything we have a complete picture on:

    <Begin list>
    <End list>

    As you see, it is very short.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Of course, there is always more to learn. We are learning how the genes
    people have affect hwo well drugs work and what side effects they have.

    Agreed--and LOTS more to learn there. Fascinating fields.

    Quoted message said:

    Just because there are more details to learn about every drug we use
    doesn't
    mean that we don't know how the drugs work.

    Again--the phrase is vague.

    We know how gasoline engines work, even though we don't know the complete
    details of how fuel burns in engines.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    We know how gravity works, but there are plenty of more details to learn
    about gravity.

    We know the EFFECTS of gravity but not how it works in the context of
    space-time, relativity, etc.

    And we know how beta-blockers work, even though we don't know every
    implication of how using beta blockers affects the expression of genes.

    The point I was making is that we have a really good idea how most drugs
    work, even though we don't know the details.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Any more than any other intervention that shows some sign of efficacy.

    Homeopathy is weird but it seems to work. Enhancing placebo effect?
    Maybe. If so, why not? And what the heck IS that--from a
    psychoneuroimmunoendocrinological perspective??

    Can you please provide the evidence that homeopathy really works? Like
    peer-reviewed literature with good studies.

    Can you provide the evidence that allopathic medicine really works?

    Yes. I can provide evidence that cancer treatments greatly improve the
    outcome of patients with cancer (especially kids with cancer), asthma is
    greatly improved with treatment, infections are cured with antibiotics, etc.

    Quoted message said:

    Not being flip--just trying to make the point that one could provide
    LOTS of evidence that allopathic medicine does NOT work. People die.
    Drugs fail. Etc.

    You could provide lots of evidence it DOES work. Means about as much.

    Wrong. It seems you are implying that allopathic medicine works only if
    every person is cured of a disease, life never ends, severely injured people
    (e.g., decapitated) are saved, etc.

    Sorry, but medicine is not that good. Never will be.

    But allopathic medicine improves the outcome of most diseases and cures
    many, like infections and cancer.

    Quoted message said:

    Meantime, what I can say is that I have in the past reviewed some
    human and animal studies where homoepathy was the intervention that
    appeared to show significant benefit for the studied indication. There
    are a handful of these, some DBPC. It begs the question of whether
    horses can experience the placebo effect!

    They can. And people around them can act differently if they think the horse
    is getting a treatment (which is why doctors don't know whether or not a
    patient is getting a treatment during studies -- these are called double
    blind studies).

    Quoted message said:

    Does it prove homeopathy works? No. Does it support the potential of
    the underlying mechanism of action of "like cures like"? Partially but
    not completely.

    A problem with homeopathy is that the is not basic scientific reason why
    homeopathy would work. In the case of antibiotics, we know that they kill
    bacteria. We don't have any theoretical basis that is backed by science to
    think that homeopathy will work.

    Quoted message said:

    But like any research, it raises more questions.

    What research? Peer-reviewed articles, please.

    Jeff

    Quoted message said:

    George M. Carter

  15. Jeff said:

    "greg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Robert said:

    The point being is that aspirin was used long before they even knew COX.
    Then they came up with COX1 and COX2.

    To further the point, if we actually really knew the effect of drugs we
    wouldn't need to do studies.

    Only if we knew every effect of the drugs on the body, including each and
    every side effect.

    Jeff


    That's what knowing how something works means.

  16. "greg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Jeff said:

    "greg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Robert wrote:

    >The point being is that aspirin was used long before they even knew COX.
    >Then they came up with COX1 and COX2.

    To further the point, if we actually really knew the effect of drugs we
    wouldn't need to do studies.

    Only if we knew every effect of the drugs on the body, including each and
    every side effect.

    Jeff


    That's what knowing how something works means.

    If we have to know every detail to say we know how something works, then we
    don't know how anything works.

    However, I disagree with this notion. With the case of antibiotics, we know
    that some of them prevent the cell wall for growing properly, killing the
    cells. We don't know every side effect of the antibiotics, because we don't
    know every interaction of drugs with the body. And we don't know every
    effect that the antibiotics have with the bacteria. Yet, I would say we know
    how the antibiotics work.

    Jeff

    Jeff

  17. Jeff said:

    If we have to know every detail to say we know how something works, then we
    don't know how anything works.

    If you don't know what you don't know then you don't know. In the case
    of hemeopathy it seems there might be something there, but we don't know
    yet.

  18. "Jeff" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "GMCarter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 03:20:04 GMT, "Jeff" <[email hidden]>
    wrote:

    <snip>

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Meantime, what I can say is that I have in the past reviewed some
    human and animal studies where homoepathy was the intervention that
    appeared to show significant benefit for the studied indication. There
    are a handful of these, some DBPC. It begs the question of whether
    horses can experience the placebo effect!

    They can. And people around them can act differently if they think the
    horse is getting a treatment (which is why doctors don't know whether or
    not a patient is getting a treatment during studies -- these are called
    double blind studies).

    Placebo effect...I doubt it. But even if it is, I'll take it. All I want
    is for my dogs to be healthy and will take placebo effect any day. There
    are no side affects I am aware of (not including nosodes) so a placebo
    effect from homeopathics is a safer bet than a placebo effect from an
    allopathic drug that has a long list of side effects, IMHO.

    Our successes are good enough (anecdotal) evidence for me and I love the
    fact that it is so inexpensive. It does not matter to me if anyone else
    holds this same opinion. Just wanted to share.

    I am pretty close to my dogs, so maybe they are reading my mind. It could
    happen<g>!

    René

  19. "Rene" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...
    (...0

    Quoted message said:

    Placebo effect...I doubt it. But even if it is, I'll take it. All I want
    is for my dogs to be healthy and will take placebo effect any day. There
    are no side affects I am aware of (not including nosodes) so a placebo
    effect from homeopathics is a safer bet than a placebo effect from an
    allopathic drug that has a long list of side effects, IMHO.

    If you want the best for your dogs, one would think that you want to use
    treatments that are proven to work, unlike homeopathic meds. of course,
    that's just me.

    Quoted message said:

    Our successes are good enough (anecdotal) evidence for me and I love the
    fact that it is so inexpensive. It does not matter to me if anyone else
    holds this same opinion. Just wanted to share.

    Anecdote is not good enough for me. And, if I had dogs, it would not be
    good enough for them, either. I guess I want real proof, not conjecture. Of
    course, that is just me.

    Quoted message said:

    I am pretty close to my dogs, so maybe they are reading my mind. It could
    happen<g>!

    Or maybe, they are clouding your mind.

    Jeff

    Quoted message said:

    René

  20. "Jeff" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Rene" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...
    (...0

    Quoted message said:

    Placebo effect...I doubt it. But even if it is, I'll take it. All I


    want

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    is for my dogs to be healthy and will take placebo effect any day.


    There

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    are no side affects I am aware of (not including nosodes) so a placebo
    effect from homeopathics is a safer bet than a placebo effect from an
    allopathic drug that has a long list of side effects, IMHO.

    If you want the best for your dogs, one would think that you want to use
    treatments that are proven to work, unlike homeopathic meds. of course,
    that's just me.

    Quoted message said:

    Our successes are good enough (anecdotal) evidence for me and I love the
    fact that it is so inexpensive. It does not matter to me if anyone


    else

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    holds this same opinion. Just wanted to share.

    Anecdote is not good enough for me. And, if I had dogs, it would not be
    good enough for them, either. I guess I want real proof, not conjecture.


    Of

    Quoted message said:

    course, that is just me.

    Quoted message said:

    I am pretty close to my dogs, so maybe they are reading my mind. It


    could

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    happen<g>!

    Or maybe, they are clouding your mind.

    Jeff

    Quoted message said:

    René

    I would blind-fold my dog and try each one separately only to prevent him
    from reading the label and cheating.

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