Hitting the right zones for November?

BullGod said:

So - I've just doNe my first month of winter training - mostly indoors on the trainer, but a few 3hr rides outside if the weather has been OK. I've kept a diary of durations, estimated / exact times in zones (power / HR - much easier to do on the trainer) and have come to the following results -

4 weeks:

Total hours training: 29
% of total time in Zone 1 - 10%
% of total time in Zone 2 - 24%
% of total time in Zone 3 - 36%
% of total time in Zone 4 - 28%
% of total time in Zone 5 - 4%

i had a week without training due to a bad cold, so I am still quite happy with duration. However - this is my first attempt at a more scientific approach to training and I want to make sure than as the months pass towards the start of the season that I am working in the right zones for the right duration?

what do you guys think of the last month? Is this balanced? Is this right for the time of year? I've tried to concentrate more on L3 and 4, using 2 and 1 for recovery. very little work on 5,6.... sensible?

for november i would be a little lower on 4 and higher on 3, but besides that it looks pretty good i think.

ps. the totals do add up to 102%

BullGod said:

So - I've just doNe my first month of winter training - mostly indoors on the trainer, but a few 3hr rides outside if the weather has been OK. I've kept a diary of durations, estimated / exact times in zones (power / HR - much easier to do on the trainer) and have come to the following results -

4 weeks:

Total hours training: 29
% of total time in Zone 1 - 10%
% of total time in Zone 2 - 24%
% of total time in Zone 3 - 36%
% of total time in Zone 4 - 28%
% of total time in Zone 5 - 4%

i had a week without training due to a bad cold, so I am still quite happy with duration. However - this is my first attempt at a more scientific approach to training and I want to make sure than as the months pass towards the start of the season that I am working in the right zones for the right duration?

what do you guys think of the last month? Is this balanced? Is this right for the time of year? I've tried to concentrate more on L3 and 4, using 2 and 1 for recovery. very little work on 5,6.... sensible?

Three questions: (1) whose training schema is this? (2) how do you know what your time in zone is (IOW, how did you arrive at these numbers)? (3) do you ride with a power meter? I had the impression from your prior posts that you do not have a power meter.

Here in the cascades it as been snowing for weeks , over the weekend we got 3 feet of fresh snow:eek: .

Trainer- 4weeks:
L1: 13%
L2; 24%
L3: 29%
L4: 24%
L5: 7%
L6: 3%

L4 will increase to 30% & L5 to 12% by Feb. Musher

RapDaddyo said:

Three questions: (1) whose training schema is this? (2) how do you know what your time in zone is (IOW, how did you arrive at these numbers)? (3) do you ride with a power meter? I had the impression from your prior posts that you do not have a power meter.

1) It is my own training scheme. I don't have a coach.

2) On the trainer my entire training programme is based upon different durations in the different zones. Therefore I can be quite accurate about this.

3) The trainer has a power reading. This is not accurate, but the trainer can be calibrated so it reads the same each time. I also use HR. By the way, another forum user - solar energy - informs me that on the Taxc Flow - if youn eher your weight as 40kg when you weigh 70kg and ignore the calibration function the reading on the Taxc display is 5% lower than on his powertap. This means my FTP on this trainer has gone from 365 to 345.

I am occasionally worrying about beglecting L5 / 6.....I'm figuring to start 2 x weekly 3-5 minute intervals in mid december??

BullGod said:

1) It is my own training scheme. I don't have a coach.

2) On the trainer my entire training programme is based upon different durations in the different zones. Therefore I can be quite accurate about this.

3) The trainer has a power reading. This is not accurate, but the trainer can be calibrated so it reads the same each time. I also use HR. By the way, another forum user - solar energy - informs me that on the Taxc Flow - if youn eher your weight as 40kg when you weigh 70kg and ignore the calibration function the reading on the Taxc display is 5% lower than on his powertap. This means my FTP on this trainer has gone from 365 to 345.

I am occasionally worrying about beglecting L5 / 6.....I'm figuring to start 2 x weekly 3-5 minute intervals in mid december??

Scheme seems pretty good, 29 hrs in one week? Wow... I'm doing
like 10 hrs right now but I'm just starting to get back to biking after burning
out. I'm curious, your 1 hr power best is 365 right? I'm thinking maybe one should avoid nearing the max 1 hr power in the offseason..if one has done a lot of 1 hr efforts before and do higher intensity intervals and longer
duration efforts at lower power. I think repeatedly doing 1 hr efforts leads to staleness, it's very hard to do an hour at near max intensity and doing it during the winter (like I did last year) may lead to overreaching during the competition season.

-bikeguy

bikeguy said:

Scheme seems pretty good, 29 hrs in one week? Wow... I'm doing
l

-bikeguy

Maybe I misread.. was that 29 hrs in 4 weeks?
-bikeguy

BullGod said:

1) It is my own training scheme. I don't have a coach.

My question is whose training schema are you using (e.g., Coggan? Stern? Friel?)? IOW, what is the definition of your zones? You use the terms "level" and "zone" interchangeably, so I can't even figure out what training schema you're using.

Quoted post said:

3) The trainer has a power reading. This is not accurate, but the trainer can be calibrated so it reads the same each time. I also use HR. By the way, another forum user - solar energy - informs me that on the Taxc Flow - if youn eher your weight as 40kg when you weigh 70kg and ignore the calibration function the reading on the Taxc display is 5% lower than on his powertap. This means my FTP on this trainer has gone from 365 to 345.

I don't think I'd put much stock in that. Who says it's even linear or that the effects of lower weight and ignoring the calibration are consistent?

On my CT, for example, using the same bike, tire ... 90-100 psi tire pressure ... if I happen to apply an extra 1/4 turn to the knob and don't calibrate the CT, it would read significantly lower than true power.

Lots of cheap slightly used PT's on eBay and the like right now. With Wireless out lots of the older ones are being dumped.

Bottom line: get a REAL PM ...

I'm thinking of investing in a PM but my girl wants a hot weather beach holiday in january....

I try to use HR as a control to negate the possible variances in power reading from the trainer. I'll also use "how it feels".... it doesn't matter so much this time of year though - the "numbers" are just an approximate guide, and something to make the hours less tedious. The system does seem to work reasonably well though.

In answer to RapDaddyo - I don't have a coach, and I am not using an officially sanctioned training scheme. I have access to a lot of sports science literature through my job, and I spend a lot of time reading up on training online. I've used this, plus my experience of how I trained for last season (specifically - what I think I did wrong) to try and come up with a plan.

I am starting to think though that at Cat 1 here in Europe I might need some expert coaching. The club I race for here has some old guys who know their stuff and a couple of elite / semi pro riders, but, compared to the scientific and methodic approaches I read about here in the forum most Dutch cyclists are way behind on the "tech" front. I know guys who are racing at elite level here - Dutch classics and stage races against visiting top pro teams who don't even have a cycling computer or HR monitor - yet alone a PM.

Bikeguy - it wa 29 hours in a month. 29 hours a week on the trainer would probably be some kind of world record!

BullGod said:

In answer to RapDaddyo - I don't have a coach, and I am not using an officially sanctioned training scheme. I have access to a lot of sports science literature through my job, and I spend a lot of time reading up on training online. I've used this, plus my experience of how I trained for last season (specifically - what I think I did wrong) to try and come up with a plan.

I think we're not communicating very well. In your original post, you summarized your training time by zones. But, there is no universal definition of zones or levels or ranges. They are part of a training schema, which is typically developed around targeted adaptations (e.g., LT, VO2MAX, AC). Without knowing what your zones correspond to in terms of either power, HR or RPE, I don't know how I or anyone else could rationally comment on your training. I haven't made any comments on your allocation of time by zone because quite simply I have no idea what these zones are.

BullGod said:

I have access to a lot of sports science literature through my job, and I spend a lot of time reading up on training online. I've used this, plus my experience of how I trained for last season (specifically - what I think I did wrong) to try and come up with a plan.

I think you can do a lot learning yourself - I'm pretty much the same, I read a lot about training and have in fact read actual studies as well, which led
me to include interval training as part of my year round program.

BullGod said:

I am starting to think though that at Cat 1 here in Europe I might need some expert coaching. The club I race for here has some old guys who know their stuff and a couple of elite / semi pro riders, but, compared to the scientific and methodic approaches I read about here in the forum most Dutch cyclists are way behind on the "tech" front. I know guys who are racing at elite level here - Dutch classics and stage races against visiting top pro teams who don't even have a cycling computer or HR monitor - yet alone a PM.

Wow, not even a speedo. Honestly, though I do think you can get very good results with speedo+HRM, but if you have the extra cash then a PM is an edge. Similarly, a coach is an extra edge. In my opinion the real advantage of a PM is when you are having difficulty making gains, a point that only comes after maybe 3-5 years of heavy training - that you can accurately keep track of work done and at what intensity in a training session - crucial for fine tuning a program to keep you at that fine line between not doing enough to improve, and doing too much. Also, a coach will help get you to your potential faster instead of you mucking around figuring things out.

In my case I'm still at the point where gains are still coming somewhat easily pretty much no matter what I do - as long as I do it.

BullGod said:

Bikeguy - it wa 29 hours in a month. 29 hours a week on the trainer would probably be some kind of world record!

Naah.. but it would be pretty boring. My 10 hrs/wk have all been on the bike, but I still have to switch my SPD pedals to the new 15 kg monster MTB.

-bikeguy

[font=Arial]Methodology:[/font][font=Arial]Andy Coggan: Based on Lactate Threshold HR (not Power/Wattage)[/font][font=Arial][/font][font=Arial][/font][font=Arial][/font][font=Arial][/font][font=Arial][/font][font=Arial][/font][font=Arial][/font][font=Arial]Zone:[/font][font=Arial]Percentage[/font][font=Arial]Lower HRZ[/font][font=Arial][/font][font=Arial]Upper HRZ[/font][font=Arial]Accomplishment[/font][font=Arial][/font][font=Arial][/font][font=Arial][/font][font=Arial][/font][font=Arial][/font][font=Arial][/font][font=Arial][/font][font=Arial]1[/font][font=Arial]< 68%[/font][font=Arial][/font][font=Arial][/font][font=Arial]107.44[/font][font=Arial]Active Recovery[/font][font=Arial][/font][font=Arial][/font][font=Arial][/font][font=Arial][/font][font=Arial][/font][font=Arial][/font][font=Arial][/font][font=Arial][/font][font=Arial]2[/font][font=Arial]69% - 83%[/font][font=Arial]109.02[/font][font=Arial]to[/font][font=Arial]131.14[/font][font=Arial]Aerobic Capacity. [/font][font=Arial][/font][font=Arial][/font][font=Arial][/font][font=Arial][/font][font=Arial][/font][font=Arial]3[/font][font=Arial]84% - 94%[/font][font=Arial]132.72[/font][font=Arial]to[/font][font=Arial]150.1[/font][font=Arial]Tempo rides, aerobic and anaerobic interval workouts[/font][font=Arial]4[/font][font=Arial]95% - 105%[/font][font=Arial]150.1[/font][font=Arial]to[/font][font=Arial]165.9[/font][font=Arial]Threshold. LT intervals [/font][font=Arial][/font][font=Arial][/font][font=Arial]5[/font][font=Arial]>106%[/font][font=Arial]167.48[/font][font=Arial][/font][font=Arial][/font][font=Arial]VO2 Max[/font][font=Arial][/font][font=Arial][/font][font=Arial][/font][font=Arial][/font][font=Arial]6[/font][font=Arial]N/A[/font][font=Arial][/font][font=Arial][/font][font=Arial][/font][font=Arial]Anaerobic Capacity[/font][font=Arial][/font][font=Arial][/font][font=Arial][/font][font=Arial]7[/font][font=Arial]N/A[/font][font=Arial][/font][font=Arial][/font][font=Arial][/font][font=Arial]Neuromuscular Power[/font]

I am using Coggan's HR zones from the spreadsheet on this site from Dr. Morbius. My resting is 46, my max 177

The power reading on my trainer goes something like this:

HR Zone 1 - 150-220w
HR Zone 2 - 220w - 300w
HR Zone 3 - 300w - 340w
Hr Zone 4 - 340 - 375w
Hr Zone 5 - 375w - 420w

FTP on this trainer is currently about 348.

does that help?

The Hr data didn't copy properly:

Zone 1 under 108
Zone 2 109-131
Zone 3 131 - 150
Zone 4 150 - 165
Zone 5 165 - 177

Get yourself a good HRM that has a lot of features to seperate time in zones, hours in zone per week and a good training log. I recommend the polar 725xTour edition, I also recommend a coach ASAP!!!

Even if you have unlimited knowledge of sports science etc you will need a coach and being more knowledgable actually helps you gel with your coach. It gives you someone to bounce idea's off it gives another (more qualified) point of view and your accountable for someone if you get lazy!

Thats what I use^ (coach and a 725xTE) and so far its worked well. ATM a PM is not necessary for another few years because training definitely isn't an act of perfection for me :p . Maybe when I have more dosh and when I get to my 3rd or 4th year of under 23's I will think about a PT or SRM!

In the off-season you should be focsuing on building an aerobic base to work off when you get into the intense stuff later on in the year. So riding in a zone thats not cruising but its not lactic threshold work either. I class it as Aerobic Stamina and its between 164 bpm and 174 bpm out of 206 max for me.

Thought of hitting the weights? It will make it easier to slip into the really intense training next year expecially if you get your aerobic stamina up to scratch!

AS is good becoz its still aerobic but you dont need to ride for 3-5 hours to get the benefits. Its higher end aerobic and its actually quite comfortable...Intervals of 20-30mins in AS with 5 mins recovery repeated 1-3 times is plenty.

dm69 said:

I also recommend a coach ASAP!!!

Even if you have unlimited knowledge of sports science etc you will need a coach and being more knowledgable actually helps you gel with your coach. It gives you someone to bounce idea's off it gives another (more qualified) point of view and your accountable for someone if you get lazy!

you know, dm69, in europe we don't need coaching, we have it our blood!🙄

Well, it's kind of hard to find coaching as you have describe it. Most/all coaches is more like "directeur sportif", they are at the races, tell you to train hard & work for the stars. Quite rare to give any training adivice on an individual basis. And they don't have to, plenty of talent to fill the ranks anyway...

Doublebiker said:

you know, dm69, in europe we don't need coaching, we have it our blood!🙄

Well, it's kind of hard to find coaching as you have describe it. Most/all coaches is more like "directeur sportif", they are at the races, tell you to train hard & work for the stars. Quite rare to give any training adivice on an individual basis. And they don't have to, plenty of talent to fill the ranks anyway...

.....and unfortunately most of your blood is now in the hands of La Guardia Civil thanks to operacion puerto, so better get a coach
totally joking! I couldn't resist

Interesting, for my month of November in Coggan zones, I ended up a little differently. I had a slow week, a taper week for a hill climb and a group ride century, but my numbers worked out something like this:

AR - 22.2% (8hr 22)
End - 30.6% (11hr 21)
Tempo - 19.9% (7hr 21)
Thres - 14% (5 hr 10)
VO2 - 6.9% (2 hr 33)
AC - 6.5% (2 hr 23)

Times/Percentages may round differently cause I eyeball rounded them off my chart. It was mostly a fun ride month for me and a toss up of about a dozen different workouts that I'll be adding to the mix this winter. Dec 1st here I come.

NomadVW said:

Interesting, for my month of November in Coggan zones, I ended up a little differently. I had a slow week, a taper week for a hill climb and a group ride century, but my numbers worked out something like this:

AR - 22.2% (8hr 22)
End - 30.6% (11hr 21)
Tempo - 19.9% (7hr 21)
Thres - 14% (5 hr 10)
VO2 - 6.9% (2 hr 33)
AC - 6.5% (2 hr 23)

Times/Percentages may round differently cause I eyeball rounded them off my chart. It was mostly a fun ride month for me and a toss up of about a dozen different workouts that I'll be adding to the mix this winter. Dec 1st here I come.

wow - that's quite intense - 5 hrs in Zones 5 and 6 in a month in November?? 38 hours total training? Impressive - and that was just a "fun ride" month? What level do you ride at? I guarantee you are doing more volume and intensity than the vast majority of elite and Cat 1 riders here....

The reason I wanted some input is because I was worried about doing too much threshold, VO2 work, and not enough "base" - seeing your stats I don't have to worry.

BullGod said:

wow - that's quite intense - 5 hrs in Zones 5 and 6 in a month in November?? 38 hours total training? Impressive - and that was just a "fun ride" month? What level do you ride at? I guarantee you are doing more volume and intensity than the vast majority of elite and Cat 1 riders here....

Really? I've ridden races in my area, but in Japan I haven't committed to the JCF license because I'm hearing it's too much hassle to transfer it back to the states when I move back in Feb '08. I got into road biking seriously in June '06 (long time runner).

In October I placed 11th in a 2 hr enduro event on a formula-1 track and 3rd in a 40km road race. The enduro was an open event, but the info shows that 9 of the top 10 were classed 2/3 in Japan. We averaged just over 40kph for the 2 hours with max speeds at 62kph in the last turn. The 40km road race wasn't listed, but we averaged 44.9kph on a completely flat course. I averaged 42 hours a month for the year through November with a total of 43 hours on the bike (includes a few hours of spin bike which the power zones don't show).

I always assume everyone else is doing more than me. But.. that's what I tell my wife! My wife has given me the nod to take a pretty aggressive training plan from here until May 3, my peak race. December will be 60 hours-ish. Really, that only comes down to one more "active recovery" day per week instead of a day off the bike for recovery.

I've got high hopes for this year coming. A podium on my peak race is the goal.