Here we go again

MrBitsy said:

Anyone else just watched 'Inside Out' on the BBC? (Wednesday 3 Sep 19:30)

The story highlighted the problem of cyclists being knocked over when
lorries turn left. The problem was the way the programme focussed solely on
the lorry driver not seeing the cyclist - absolutely nothing at all on how
cyclists can ride defensivly.

I try to ride defensively, but often find a car lorry pulls up beside me
at traffic lights with that vehicle indicating left, what am I supposed
to do in that situation?

e.g.

Quoted message said:

I completely agree that lorries should be fitted with mirrors to minimise
blindspots, but the cyclist can spot the lorry easily - why no mention of
some simple steps for cyclists to take? I also agree the lorry driver should
always act responsibly, checking all blind spot regularly to minimise
danger.

I agree that steps should be taken to educate cyclists. Have you seen
the TfL sponsored stickers on many lorries warning cyclists not to
undertake?

Quoted message said:

The lorry driver has a huge vehicle to move around on busy streets. Even
with a full compliment of mirrors, a poor driver may make a mistake and miss
a cyclist. For that reason, the programme should have made some simple
recommendations for the cyclists.

Many streets in this country are unsuitable for HGVs. I have seen them
being driven through busy shopping centers in the middle of the afternoon.

Quoted message said:

When it is so easy for a cyclist to spot a huge lorry, why do they put
themselves alongside lorries at junctions? Why not wait behind the lorry
like I would in my car?

Why don't cars and lorries wait behind me when approaching junctions and
especially red traffic lights?
Instead as I am freewheeling up to a junction I here an engine rev up,
see the driver swerve around and in front of me, and skid to a halt. I
see this nearly every day.

In article <[email hidden]>, Martin Dann
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Why don't cars and lorries wait behind me when approaching junctions and
especially red traffic lights?

Because if they're not first to the next red light you'll have won. :-\

Martin Dann said:

I try to ride defensively, but often find a car lorry pulls up beside me
at traffic lights with that vehicle indicating left, what am I supposed
to do in that situation?

e.g.

Neither lorry was indicating left at all, from what I could see.

Dunno if that's you, but you cut across the front of the second lorry,
pulling out 90 degrees, apparently blindly, into the next lane, then
cutting back between cars just as they're moving off> Seems to me to be
simply asking for trouble and yet more statistics, IMHO.

--
Paul - [censored]

Martin Dann ([email hidden]) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The story highlighted the problem of cyclists being knocked over when
lorries turn left. The problem was the way the programme focussed
solely on the lorry driver not seeing the cyclist - absolutely
nothing at all on how cyclists can ride defensivly.

Quoted message said:

I try to ride defensively, but often find a car lorry pulls up beside
me at traffic lights with that vehicle indicating left, what am I
supposed to do in that situation?

Move forwards and right, so you're in front of the truck and the driver can
see you.

Of course, if you weren't in the gutter but in the middle of the lane, the
truck wouldn't be able to pull up next to you in the first place.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The lorry driver has a huge vehicle to move around on busy streets.
Even with a full compliment of mirrors, a poor driver may make a
mistake and miss a cyclist. For that reason, the programme should
have made some simple recommendations for the cyclists.

Quoted message said:

Many streets in this country are unsuitable for HGVs. I have seen them
being driven through busy shopping centers in the middle of the
afternoon.

<pre-empts Conor etc>
Why do you think the shopping centres are busy?

Quoted message said:

Why don't cars and lorries wait behind me when approaching junctions
and especially red traffic lights?

Because they're being driven by clueless [censored], and because you encourage
them through your road positioning.

Paul - censored said:

Martin Dann said:

I try to ride defensively, but often find a car lorry pulls up beside
me at traffic lights with that vehicle indicating left, what am I
supposed to do in that situation?

e.g.

Neither lorry was indicating left at all, from what I could see.

The second lorry started to indicate left as I was pulling up beside the
cab. I can't recall when the first lorry started indicating left, but it
did, and turn left at the roundabout.

Quoted message said:

Dunno if that's you, but you cut across the front of the second lorry,

Which was stationary.

Quoted message said:

pulling out 90 degrees, apparently blindly, into the next lane, then

I looked, but it was still a bit Darwinian.

Quoted message said:

cutting back between cars just as they're moving off> Seems to me to be
simply asking for trouble and yet more statistics, IMHO.

And made eye contact with the car drivers before pulling back in.

I agree it was not the best of maneuvers, but in the circumstances
better that being on the left of the trucks.

Martin Dann said:

Paul - censored said:

Martin Dann said:

I try to ride defensively, but often find a car lorry pulls up beside
me at traffic lights with that vehicle indicating left, what am I
supposed to do in that situation?

e.g.

Neither lorry was indicating left at all, from what I could see.

The second lorry started to indicate left as I was pulling up beside the
cab. I can't recall when the first lorry started indicating left, but it
did, and turn left at the roundabout.

Neither indicated on the video ... which was your reference.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

pulling out 90 degrees, apparently blindly, into the next lane, then

I looked, but it was still a bit Darwinian.

" a bit", I'd suggest it was a stupid manouvre and hardly makes your
point that lorries were in the wrong ...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

cutting back between cars just as they're moving off> Seems to me to
be simply asking for trouble and yet more statistics, IMHO.

And made eye contact with the car drivers before pulling back in.

Oh, that makes it OK then.

Quoted message said:

I agree it was not the best of maneuvers, but in the circumstances
better that being on the left of the trucks.

As pointed out earlier, the video shows neither truck indicating, but
does show you riding in, by your own admission, "a bit Darwinian"
fashion. Hardly seems to make a good argument against any road user
other than your self, IMHO.

--
Paul - [censored]

In article <[email hidden]>, Martin Dann
says...

Quoted message said:

I try to ride defensively, but often find a car lorry pulls up beside me
at traffic lights with that vehicle indicating left, what am I supposed
to do in that situation?

You've seen the indicators as you've just admitted so why not hang back
a few seconds until they've turned?

Quoted message said:

Many streets in this country are unsuitable for HGVs. I have seen them
being driven through busy shopping centers in the middle of the afternoon.

And I wonder why that is. Oh yeah...customers demand that the things
they want to buy are on the shelves when they go there. And then you've
locals who campaign to get late night/early morning HGV deliveries
stopped so the lorries have to deliver through the working day.

Quoted message said:

Why don't cars and lorries wait behind me when approaching junctions and
especially red traffic lights?
Instead as I am freewheeling up to a junction I here an engine rev up,
see the driver swerve around and in front of me, and skid to a halt. I
see this nearly every day.

You'll find most lorries will hang back for a cyclist.

--
Conor

I'm not prejudiced. I hate everyone equally.

Adrian said:

Martin Dann ([email hidden]) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The story highlighted the problem of cyclists being knocked over when
lorries turn left. The problem was the way the programme focussed
solely on the lorry driver not seeing the cyclist - absolutely
nothing at all on how cyclists can ride defensivly.

Quoted message said:

I try to ride defensively, but often find a car lorry pulls up beside
me at traffic lights with that vehicle indicating left, what am I
supposed to do in that situation?

Move forwards and right, so you're in front of the truck and the driver can
see you.

Yep, as a part time cyclist, they shouldn't be *able* to get in front of
you in that situation. And once the traffic starts moving you can
*easily* out-accelerate them for long enough to be safe. Why don't you?

Quoted message said:

Of course, if you weren't in the gutter but in the middle of the lane, the
truck wouldn't be able to pull up next to you in the first place.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The lorry driver has a huge vehicle to move around on busy streets.
Even with a full compliment of mirrors, a poor driver may make a
mistake and miss a cyclist. For that reason, the programme should
have made some simple recommendations for the cyclists.

Definitely. A lot of cyclists are suicides waiting to happen.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Many streets in this country are unsuitable for HGVs. I have seen them
being driven through busy shopping centers in the middle of the
afternoon.

<pre-empts Conor etc>
Why do you think the shopping centres are busy?

Quoted message said:

Why don't cars and lorries wait behind me when approaching junctions
and especially red traffic lights?

Because they're being driven by clueless [censored], and because you encourage
them through your road positioning.

The only one of which you can affect is to be more assertive on the
road. It doesn't have to be 'in your face' and some [censored] will sometimes
take offence, but sod 'em.

Adrian said:

Quoted message said:

I try to ride defensively, but often find a car lorry pulls up beside
me at traffic lights with that vehicle indicating left, what am I
supposed to do in that situation?

Move forwards and right, so you're in front of the truck and the driver can
see you.

Provided there aren't any railings mount the pavement and use that ;-)

Recall home office guidance to the police. 'The introduction of the
fixed penalty is not aimed at responsible cyclists who sometimes feel
obliged to use the pavement out of fear of traffic and who show
consideration to other pavement users when doing so. Chief police
officers, who are responsible for enforcement, acknowledge that many
cyclists, particularly children and young people, are afraid to cycle
on the road, sensitivity and careful use of police discretion is
required.'

In other words, if you can show that you were using the pavement out
of a fear of traffic, and were showing consideration to other pavement
users - you should not be issued with a FPN.

However, if the roadside has railings you stand a good chance of being
minced.

Quoted message said:

Provided there aren't any railings mount the pavement and use that ;-)

Recall home office guidance to the police. 'The introduction of the
fixed penalty is not aimed at responsible cyclists who sometimes feel
obliged to use the pavement out of fear of traffic and who show
consideration to other pavement users when doing so. Chief police
officers, who are responsible for enforcement, acknowledge that many
cyclists, particularly children and young people, are afraid to cycle
on the road, sensitivity and careful use of police discretion is
required.'

In other words, if you can show that you were using the pavement out
of a fear of traffic, and were showing consideration to other pavement
users - you should not be issued with a FPN.

Do you trust the average PC Plod to 'use discretion' or to chalk up an
easy statistic for his targets?

I know which I would expect, with very little evidence to back it up.
But that's the whole problem with this current drive to try and persuade
people they won't be prosecuted if they 'have a go' or stand up for
themselves - it takes a lot to overcome widespread perceptions.

They need a 'Minister for Fairness' who can look at a case with common
sense and say 'OK, you were robbing him, he hit you with a poker, that's
tough for you, all your luxuries will be sold and the money given to
your victim'.

Conor said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Martin Dann
says...

Quoted message said:

I try to ride defensively, but often find a car lorry pulls up beside me
at traffic lights with that vehicle indicating left, what am I supposed
to do in that situation?

You've seen the indicators as you've just admitted so why not hang back
a few seconds until they've turned?

Because the second truck was already beside me, not in front. If I had
waited it could have cut across anyway. If the lorry had pulled fully in
front I would have waited behind.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Many streets in this country are unsuitable for HGVs. I have seen them
being driven through busy shopping centers in the middle of the afternoon.

And I wonder why that is. Oh yeah...customers demand that the things
they want to buy are on the shelves when they go there. And then you've
locals who campaign to get late night/early morning HGV deliveries
stopped so the lorries have to deliver through the working day.

So why the need to send a 44 ton articulated lorry into the middle of a
busy city centre just to deliver one pallet of lettuce or bread?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Why don't cars and lorries wait behind me when approaching junctions and
especially red traffic lights?
Instead as I am freewheeling up to a junction I here an engine rev up,
see the driver swerve around and in front of me, and skid to a halt. I
see this nearly every day.

You'll find most lorries will hang back for a cyclist.

TBH I find the majority of lorry[1] drivers to be good drivers, far
better than the average car driver.

[1] I mean HGVs, not vans or small trucks.

Martin Dann said:

I try to ride defensively, but often find a car lorry pulls up beside
me at traffic lights with that vehicle indicating left, what am I
supposed to do in that situation?

e.g.

Prevent that situation by moving to the middle of the lane, or the next
lane, WELL BEFORE you reach the stationary or slow moving queue of traffic.

Looking behind a lot will make it obvious to drivers that you may be moving
right at any moment. Many of them will then slow down for you to open up a
gap, even before you signal.

If it's not possible to change position without stopping first, stop before
you get to the danger zone, and wait until it's safe to proceed.

BTW, how about sticking something fluffy over the microphone to reduce wind
noise?

~PB

"Conor" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Why don't cars and lorries wait behind me when approaching junctions and
especially red traffic lights?
Instead as I am freewheeling up to a junction I here an engine rev up,
see the driver swerve around and in front of me, and skid to a halt. I
see this nearly every day.

You'll find most lorries will hang back for a cyclist.

Indeed. Depressingly often however the relevant word missing in this
discussion is "Tipper drivers" - I know your feelings on the subject.

cheers,
clive

Martin Dann ([email hidden]) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You've seen the indicators as you've just admitted so why not hang
back a few seconds until they've turned?

Quoted message said:

Because the second truck was already beside me, not in front. If I had
waited it could have cut across anyway.

Ummm, yes, exactly. In front of you. Harmlessly, but inconveniently.

Quoted message said:

So why the need to send a 44 ton articulated lorry into the middle of
a busy city centre just to deliver one pallet of lettuce or bread?

Because even if it IS just delivering one pallet there, it's then going on
to deliver another few pallets there, some there, some there, some there.
It's called "multi-drop".

"Conor" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Martin Dann
says...

Quoted message said:

I try to ride defensively, but often find a car lorry pulls up beside me
at traffic lights with that vehicle indicating left, what am I supposed
to do in that situation?

You've seen the indicators as you've just admitted so why not hang back
a few seconds until they've turned?

Quoted message said:

Many streets in this country are unsuitable for HGVs. I have seen them
being driven through busy shopping centers in the middle of the
afternoon.

And I wonder why that is. Oh yeah...customers demand that the things
they want to buy are on the shelves when they go there. And then you've
locals who campaign to get late night/early morning HGV deliveries
stopped so the lorries have to deliver through the working day.

And some lorry drivers are looking for a filling station so that they can
ask for directions as they haven't a clue where they are going..

"Adrian" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Martin Dann ([email hidden]) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You've seen the indicators as you've just admitted so why not hang
back a few seconds until they've turned?

Quoted message said:

Because the second truck was already beside me, not in front. If I had
waited it could have cut across anyway.

Ummm, yes, exactly. In front of you. Harmlessly, but inconveniently.

No, when he uses the phrase 'cut across', it means the lorry moves into the
space already occupied by the cyclist.

Martin Dann said:

MrBitsy said:

Anyone else just watched 'Inside Out' on the BBC? (Wednesday 3 Sep 19:30)

The story highlighted the problem of cyclists being knocked over when
lorries turn left. The problem was the way the programme focussed solely on
the lorry driver not seeing the cyclist - absolutely nothing at all on how
cyclists can ride defensivly.

I try to ride defensively, but often find a car lorry pulls up beside me
at traffic lights with that vehicle indicating left, what am I supposed
to do in that situation?

e.g.

lights and such i tend to take the whole lane, to prevent such
sillyness, i'm hardly likely to hold folk up at lights.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I completely agree that lorries should be fitted with mirrors to minimise
blindspots, but the cyclist can spot the lorry easily - why no mention of
some simple steps for cyclists to take? I also agree the lorry driver should
always act responsibly, checking all blind spot regularly to minimise
danger.

I agree that steps should be taken to educate cyclists. Have you seen
the TfL sponsored stickers on many lorries warning cyclists not to
undertake?

yup

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The lorry driver has a huge vehicle to move around on busy streets. Even
with a full compliment of mirrors, a poor driver may make a mistake and miss
a cyclist. For that reason, the programme should have made some simple
recommendations for the cyclists.

Many streets in this country are unsuitable for HGVs. I have seen them
being driven through busy shopping centers in the middle of the afternoon.

one of the houses in the towns nr my folks has a sticker asking lorries
not to hit my house...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

When it is so easy for a cyclist to spot a huge lorry, why do they put
themselves alongside lorries at junctions? Why not wait behind the lorry
like I would in my car?

Why don't cars and lorries wait behind me when approaching junctions and
especially red traffic lights?
Instead as I am freewheeling up to a junction I here an engine rev up,
see the driver swerve around and in front of me, and skid to a halt. I
see this nearly every day.

bike must be slow...

even get it when they can see the traffic is stationary.

roger
--
www.rogermerriman.com

OG said:

"Adrian" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Martin Dann ([email hidden]) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

Quoted message said:

>You've seen the indicators as you've just admitted so why not hang
>back a few seconds until they've turned?

Quoted message said:

Because the second truck was already beside me, not in front. If I had
waited it could have cut across anyway.

Ummm, yes, exactly. In front of you. Harmlessly, but inconveniently.

No, when he uses the phrase 'cut across', it means the lorry moves into the
space already occupied by the cyclist.

Nah... that would be "running over".

"Cutting across" means moving across the intended path of the cyclist.

Tom Crispin said:

Recall home office guidance to the police. 'The introduction of the
fixed penalty is not aimed at responsible cyclists who sometimes feel
obliged to use the pavement out of fear of traffic and who show
consideration to other pavement users when doing so. Chief police
officers, who are responsible for enforcement, acknowledge that many
cyclists, particularly children and young people, are afraid to cycle
on the road, sensitivity and careful use of police discretion is
required.'

Quoted message said:

In other words, if you can show that you were using the pavement out
of a fear of traffic, and were showing consideration to other pavement
users - you should not be issued with a FPN.

A colleague was threatened with a FPN whilst using a pavement to avoid
a busy A-road with traffic doing 60 mph. The pavement in question is
rarely used by pedestrians.

Home office guidance is merely guidance unless it is written into the
relevant legislation. The police can and will simply ignore it.