Head Protection

Gooserider said:

... removing the best prevention for reducing potential head injury while
cycling is just plain stupid. Duh.

Not if it doesn't work! And not if it's almost never needed!

As discussed many times, the risk of head injury while bicycling has
been GROSSLY overstated by the helmet promotion crowd. Recall,
bicycling causes fewer than 1% of the head injury fatalities in the
US, and a similar proportion of the serious head injuries.

Pedestrians walking in cities have more serious head injuries in
total, and more serious head injuries per hour exposure than
cyclists. (Which is not to say the risk is great for pedestrians, of
course. It's very low for both peds and cyclists. )

Helmet marketeers have deluded people into thinking that cycling's
risk is huge, and thus gotten uncounted millions to wear foam hats.
And yet, population data shows no reduction in the actual head injury
rate. Why is it stupid to remove something that's not needed and
doesn't work?

Quoted message said:

Bike helmets aren't to prevent injury if one is hit by a car.

Ask the next ten people on the street if that's true. See what
they've been told.

Quoted message said:

They're to prevent injury if one falls down. A five foot fall to concrete will do damage.

My head is higher than five feet when I walk. And I guarantee, I've
fallen more walking than I've ever fallen on bikes. I imagine that's
true for most of us.

So, given all the _other_ sources of serious head injury - the ones
that actually cause 99% of the problem - for which ones do you wear a
helmet?

On Mar 11, 11:48 pm, "David L. Johnson" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The statement on "social norms" puzzles me.

Simple. She who must be obeyed would have puppies were I to venture out
without one.

Ah. That's not a social norm about wearing helmets, then.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If you define "social norm" in terms of club cyclists (like the
Buycycling models who would never wear a jersey that lacked snazzy
graphics, and who add a cog every time Shimano says "jump"😉 you may be
right. But that's a very special class of cyclist.

So would be the people who read this newsgroup, actually. But you could
manage to make your point without insulting riders who don't do it your
way.

Sorry I offended you. (If that was an insult, it was certainly a
gentle one!) But speaking as a person who is (also) a club cyclist,
it's certainly true that the typical American club cyclist buys
equipment and clothes according to what's featured in Buycycling
magazine. They want that look - even if the lycra stretches over a
body that would never make the cover. And since "that look" includes
an oddball foam hat, club cyclists in America usually ride with foam
hats.

I think "cyclist" is a more general word, including European
enthusiasts, utility cyclists the world over, kids buzzing around
their neighborhoods, long distance tourists, etc., most of whom would
be puzzled by any insistence that they needed special head protection.

Quoted message said:

Frankly, I don't care whether someone else wears a helmet or not. It's
so much more important to worry about wrong-way cyclists, or those who
think stop signs are for the other guy. Or, most importantly, those who
don't ride at all.

I care about those things too. But I think the hyping of minimal
danger does a lot to cause people to not ride at all. And I've seen
so many helmeted cyclists riding wrong way, and/or without lights, and/
or crashing stop signs etc. that I think "safety education" has too
long concentrated on the marketing of styrofoam, to the detriment of
all else.

- Frank Krygowski

Quoted message said:

I care about those things too. But I think the hyping of minimal
danger does a lot to cause people to not ride at all. And I've seen
so many helmeted cyclists riding wrong way, and/or without lights, and/
or crashing stop signs etc. that I think "safety education" has too
long concentrated on the marketing of styrofoam, to the detriment of
all else.

Absolutely, just as "safety" in cars is limited to air bags and crumple
zones. That doesn't make air bags a bad idea; it's the reliance on them
(or hats) instead of basic safety that is the problem.

--

David L. Johnson

"Business!" cried the Ghost. "Mankind was my business. The common
welfare was my business; charity, mercy, forbearance, and
benevolence, were, all, my business. The dealings of my trade were but
a drop of water in the comprehensive ocean of my business!" --Dickens,

"Bill Baka" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

We share a problem there since I am the same head size. In the summer I go
without a helmet but wear the largest sports cap I can find, out to it's
last adjust point, for the visor to keep my eyes from the direct sun. In
the winter, I got lucky and found a Giro ski helmet which is total
overkill for a bicycle but keeps my ears warm and fits very snug.
It is a large and barely fits so I think that maybe they had planned for a
ski mask and other stuff under the helmet.
I know nothing of RocLoc and you may indeed find a problem with a normal
bicycle helmet. One idea would be to find a motorcycle or ski shop and
find out what they have that might fit.
I'm in California so it's a different world for me.
Best of luck.
Bill Baka

"Rola", writing on 9 March, recommended:-

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/ProductDetail.aspx?Cat=cycle&ProdID=5360028390

I took his advice, looked at the website, and found that they do indeed
offer XXL cycle helmets. So I ordered one. It fits perfectly, but it is at
the limit of its adjustment. I am pleased with it, and look forward to using
it in April. My thanks to Rola for his advice.

This evening, I asked my wife to accurately measure the circumference of my
head for your information, and she told me that I am between 62.25 and
62.5cm. If you measure the circumference of your own head and find that it
is the same 62.5cm or less, I can recommend that you attempt to order the
same type of helmet from Wiggles in England. I feel sure they would export
one to California for you, but with some extra charge for postage. If you
are more than 62.5 cm, I do not think the helmet will fit you, so it will
not be worthwhile.

I did not realise when I posted my original question that I would be
stirring up such a debate. Once again, full marks to this usenet group.
People here, by and large, manage to debate and disagree with each other,
but without the use of personal insults. This is rare in usenet groups, and
I congratulate you all on it.

I have read both sides of the debate, but have decided to buy a helmet
anyway. This is partly for safety reasons (it cannot reduce safety, and
might increase it). But the main reason was that I intend to hire a bicycle
when I go to Norfolk in April. I do not want my holiday to be ruined by a
hire shop that refuses to hire a bicycle to me because I cannot wear the
helmet that he provides. Cycle hirers, like everybody else nowadays, live in
fear of litigation. Of course, I would accept responsibility for my own
accident, but the hirer does not know that when he hires the bike to me.

[censored] Chambers Leeds UK.

censored Chambers said:

"Bill Baka" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

We share a problem there since I am the same head size. In the summer I go
without a helmet but wear the largest sports cap I can find, out to it's
last adjust point, for the visor to keep my eyes from the direct sun. In
the winter, I got lucky and found a Giro ski helmet which is total
overkill for a bicycle but keeps my ears warm and fits very snug.
It is a large and barely fits so I think that maybe they had planned for a
ski mask and other stuff under the helmet.
I know nothing of RocLoc and you may indeed find a problem with a normal
bicycle helmet. One idea would be to find a motorcycle or ski shop and
find out what they have that might fit.
I'm in California so it's a different world for me.
Best of luck.
Bill Baka

"Rola", writing on 9 March, recommended:-

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/ProductDetail.aspx?Cat=cycle&ProdID=5360028390

I took his advice, looked at the website, and found that they do indeed
offer XXL cycle helmets. So I ordered one. It fits perfectly, but it is at
the limit of its adjustment. I am pleased with it, and look forward to using
it in April. My thanks to Rola for his advice.

This evening, I asked my wife to accurately measure the circumference of my
head for your information, and she told me that I am between 62.25 and
62.5cm. If you measure the circumference of your own head and find that it
is the same 62.5cm or less, I can recommend that you attempt to order the
same type of helmet from Wiggles in England. I feel sure they would export
one to California for you, but with some extra charge for postage. If you
are more than 62.5 cm, I do not think the helmet will fit you, so it will
not be worthwhile.

I did not realise when I posted my original question that I would be
stirring up such a debate. Once again, full marks to this usenet group.
People here, by and large, manage to debate and disagree with each other,
but without the use of personal insults. This is rare in usenet groups, and
I congratulate you all on it.

I have read both sides of the debate, but have decided to buy a helmet
anyway. This is partly for safety reasons (it cannot reduce safety, and
might increase it). But the main reason was that I intend to hire a bicycle
when I go to Norfolk in April. I do not want my holiday to be ruined by a
hire shop that refuses to hire a bicycle to me because I cannot wear the
helmet that he provides. Cycle hirers, like everybody else nowadays, live in
fear of litigation. Of course, I would accept responsibility for my own
accident, but the hirer does not know that when he hires the bike to me.

[censored] Chambers Leeds UK.

I come in at a tad over 59 cm, at least as measured by a steel
carpenter's tape in inches and converted. Not as tight a fit as you have
but still hard to find a good helmet fit. Now I wonder what average is?
Bill Baka

Tom Keats said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Bill Baka said:

I come in at a tad over 59 cm, at least as measured by a steel
carpenter's tape in inches and converted. Not as tight a fit as you have
but still hard to find a good helmet fit. Now I wonder what average is?

<http://www.thehatsite.com/measuring.html>

cheers,
Tom

Wow,
Faster than Googling it.
Bill Baka

"Bill Baka" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tom Keats said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Bill Baka said:

I come in at a tad over 59 cm, at least as measured by a steel
carpenter's tape in inches and converted. Not as tight a fit as you have
but still hard to find a good helmet fit. Now I wonder what average is?

<http://www.thehatsite.com/measuring.html>

cheers,
Tom

Wow,
Faster than Googling it.
Bill Baka

If you look at time sent you got it before he sent it. Double wow

In article <[email hidden]>,

Bill Baka said:

I come in at a tad over 59 cm, at least as measured by a steel
carpenter's tape in inches and converted. Not as tight a fit as you have
but still hard to find a good helmet fit. Now I wonder what average is?

<http://www.thehatsite.com/measuring.html>

cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

nash said:

"Bill Baka" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tom Keats said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
Bill Baka <[email hidden]> writes:

> I come in at a tad over 59 cm, at least as measured by a steel
> carpenter's tape in inches and converted. Not as tight a fit as
> you have but still hard to find a good helmet fit. Now I wonder
> what average is?

<http://www.thehatsite.com/measuring.html>

cheers,
Tom

Wow,
Faster than Googling it.
Bill Baka

If you look at time sent you got it before he sent it. Double wow

Computer Genius Iron Bill Baka ain't figured out how to set his clock,
apparently. (He's also pleaded ignorance at how to plonk people, too.)

Bill "do boneheads measure the same as....?" S.

Bill Sornson said:

nash said:

"Bill Baka" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tom Keats wrote:
> In article <[email hidden]>,
> Bill Baka <[email hidden]> writes:
>
>> I come in at a tad over 59 cm, at least as measured by a steel
>> carpenter's tape in inches and converted. Not as tight a fit as
>> you have but still hard to find a good helmet fit. Now I wonder
>> what average is?
> <http://www.thehatsite.com/measuring.html>
>
>
> cheers,
> Tom
>
>
Wow,
Faster than Googling it.
Bill Baka

If you look at time sent you got it before he sent it. Double wow

Computer Genius Iron Bill Baka ain't figured out how to set his clock,
apparently. (He's also pleaded ignorance at how to plonk people, too.)

Bill "do boneheads measure the same as....?" S.

Bonehead (B.S.),
The reason for that is that I am using Linux today and not the usual
Winders. I am evaluating different Linux distributions for customers who
may not want to be forced into 'Sidegrading' to Vista.
Simple enough for you?
Bill Baka

Bill Baka said:

The reason for that is that I am using Linux today and not the usual
Winders. I am evaluating different Linux distributions for customers who
may not want to be forced into 'Sidegrading' to Vista.
Simple enough for you?
Bill Baka

Check out the Mepis version of Ubuntu. It's the best release I've found
for migrating people from Windows. It's the first version I tried that
got nearly everything working on my notebook, including 802.11 and
Bluetooth (one minor tweak to get Bluetooth going).

censored Chambers said:

I took his advice, looked at the website, and found that they do indeed
offer XXL cycle helmets. So I ordered one. It fits perfectly, but it is at
the limit of its adjustment. I am pleased with it, and look forward to using
it in April. My thanks to Rola for his advice.

Plus the Air Force 3 is Snell approved, which is not all that common
these days with most manufacturers doing self-certification to a
different standard. Everyone here agrees that helmets save lives and
prevent injuries, but if possible go with a Snell approved helmet. You
won't find them in department stores or at Costco.

On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 09:25:47 -0700, SMS <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Plus the Air Force 3 is Snell approved, which is not all that common
these days with most manufacturers doing self-certification to a
different standard. Everyone here agrees that helmets save lives and
prevent injuries, but if possible go with a Snell approved helmet. You
won't find them in department stores or at Costco.

Its Snell B-90A, which is functionally equivalent to the CPSC and ASTM
standards, other than the self-certification issue. I doubt that the
self-certification issue is really a problem for the majors,
especially Bell that manufacturers to processes that are indepently
certified and tested for its international sales lines, including auto
and motorcycle helmets.

Finding an oversized (over size 7 3/4) helmet that is Snell B-95
certified would be difficult. I think settling for B-90 is good
enough, especially as some helmet experts (FWIW, pro-helmet helmet
experts) think that meeting the more stringent standards may actually
make for helmets less functional in the normal range of expected
accidents.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

SMS said:

Bill Baka said:

The reason for that is that I am using Linux today and not the usual
Winders. I am evaluating different Linux distributions for customers
who may not want to be forced into 'Sidegrading' to Vista.
Simple enough for you?
Bill Baka

Check out the Mepis version of Ubuntu. It's the best release I've found
for migrating people from Windows. It's the first version I tried that
got nearly everything working on my notebook, including 802.11 and
Bluetooth (one minor tweak to get Bluetooth going).

Right now I'm on 6.10 (Edgy Eft) on a 13 GB hard drive, then back to a
20 GB that I am taking from Suse 10.2 to 10.3, Alpha/Beta. I'm running
out of hard drives since I don't want to lose anything on my Windows 250
GB and 120 GB, both full. I need to go shopping for bigger drives and
not bike stuff like I had planned.
What I didn't count on is soooo many varieties of Linux, like 20 and
counting.
Bill Baka
I'm gonna be out of sync for a few weeks.

Bill Baka said:

Bill Sornson said:

nash said:

"Bill Baka" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> Tom Keats wrote:
>> In article <[email hidden]>,
>> Bill Baka <[email hidden]> writes:
>>
>>> I come in at a tad over 59 cm, at least as measured by a steel
>>> carpenter's tape in inches and converted. Not as tight a fit as
>>> you have but still hard to find a good helmet fit. Now I wonder
>>> what average is?
>> <http://www.thehatsite.com/measuring.html>
>>
>>
>> cheers,
>> Tom
>>
>>
> Wow,
> Faster than Googling it.
> Bill Baka
If you look at time sent you got it before he sent it. Double wow

Computer Genius Iron Bill Baka ain't figured out how to set his
clock, apparently. (He's also pleaded ignorance at how to plonk
people, too.) Bill "do boneheads measure the same as....?" S.

Bonehead (B.S.),
The reason for that is that I am using Linux today and not the usual
Winders. I am evaluating different Linux distributions for customers
who may not want to be forced into 'Sidegrading' to Vista.
Simple enough for you?
Bill Baka

You whined about not being able to plonk people (blush) well over a year
ago.

Bill "always got a story, doncha?" S.

Bill Sornson said:

Bill Baka said:

Bill Sornson said:

nash wrote:
> "Bill Baka" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
>> Tom Keats wrote:
>>> In article <[email hidden]>,
>>> Bill Baka <[email hidden]> writes:
>>>
>>>> I come in at a tad over 59 cm, at least as measured by a steel
>>>> carpenter's tape in inches and converted. Not as tight a fit as
>>>> you have but still hard to find a good helmet fit. Now I wonder
>>>> what average is?
>>> <http://www.thehatsite.com/measuring.html>
>>>
>>>
>>> cheers,
>>> Tom
>>>
>>>
>> Wow,
>> Faster than Googling it.
>> Bill Baka
> If you look at time sent you got it before he sent it. Double wow
Computer Genius Iron Bill Baka ain't figured out how to set his
clock, apparently. (He's also pleaded ignorance at how to plonk
people, too.) Bill "do boneheads measure the same as....?" S.

Bonehead (B.S.),
The reason for that is that I am using Linux today and not the usual
Winders. I am evaluating different Linux distributions for customers
who may not want to be forced into 'Sidegrading' to Vista.
Simple enough for you?
Bill Baka

You whined about not being able to plonk people (blush) well over a year
ago.

Bill "always got a story, doncha?" S.

I plonked you then un-plonked you. Reading some of your stupid comments
tends to be amusing.
Bill Baka

Bill Baka said:

Bill Sornson said:

Bill Baka said:

Bill Sornson wrote:
> nash wrote:
>> "Bill Baka" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>> news:[email hidden]...
>>> Tom Keats wrote:
>>>> In article <[email hidden]>,
>>>> Bill Baka <[email hidden]> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> I come in at a tad over 59 cm, at least as measured by a steel
>>>>> carpenter's tape in inches and converted. Not as tight a fit as
>>>>> you have but still hard to find a good helmet fit. Now I wonder
>>>>> what average is?
>>>> <http://www.thehatsite.com/measuring.html>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> cheers,
>>>> Tom
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Wow,
>>> Faster than Googling it.
>>> Bill Baka
>> If you look at time sent you got it before he sent it. Double wow
> Computer Genius Iron Bill Baka ain't figured out how to set his
> clock, apparently. (He's also pleaded ignorance at how to plonk
> people, too.) Bill "do boneheads measure the same as....?" S.
>
>
Bonehead (B.S.),
The reason for that is that I am using Linux today and not the usual
Winders. I am evaluating different Linux distributions for customers
who may not want to be forced into 'Sidegrading' to Vista.
Simple enough for you?
Bill Baka

You whined about not being able to plonk people (blush) well over a
year ago.

Bill "always got a story, doncha?" S.

I plonked you then un-plonked you. Reading some of your stupid
comments tends to be amusing.
Bill Baka

Bill, you specifically said you COULD NOT PLONK PEOPLE with {insert lame
software excuse here}. IIRC, it was when that one guy was stalking you with
some pretty hilarious quotes from your illustrious posting past.

Now you claim something else -- shades of the Tricycle Story! LOL (First
it was 65 mph complete with a ticket, then 20 mph with a ride home in a
squad car, etc etc etc etc......................)

I'm too lazy to Google it, but I specifically recall you saying you couldn't
block individual senders. Whatever.

Bill "but at least you finally fixed your clock (only 3 days later)" S.

SMS said:

Bill Baka said:

The reason for that is that I am using Linux today and not the usual
Winders. I am evaluating different Linux distributions for customers who
may not want to be forced into 'Sidegrading' to Vista.
Simple enough for you?
Bill Baka

Check out the Mepis version of Ubuntu. It's the best release I've found
for migrating people from Windows. It's the first version I tried that
got nearly everything working on my notebook, including 802.11 and
Bluetooth (one minor tweak to get Bluetooth going).

Mepis is just fine and dandy. However, due to them including some
features such as codecs and plugins, the legality of the distribution
is unfortunately a bit sketchy. Worth looking into.

I'm running the development version of Ubuntu, Feisty Fawn, on the
desktop. It's very easy to install the proprietary things that Mepis
comes with out of the box with graphical tools these days.

I'd definitely recommend Ubuntu or Ubuntu based distros, as the
userbase is huge and so is the possibility for assistance if you need
it.

landotter said:

Mepis is just fine and dandy. However, due to them including some
features such as codecs and plugins, the legality of the distribution
is unfortunately a bit sketchy. Worth looking into.

Other distributions do the same thing, i.e. LinuxMint appears to be
competing with Mepis in terms of usability, and including plugins.

David L. Johnson said:

It has nothing to do with helmet laws, as you well know.

Actually, the MHLs for kids do have one positive aspect, in that they
provide the parent with a false sense of security that the helmet
negates the danger of riding a bicycle, when in reality the danger level
is about the same with or without a helmet because the number of
head-impact collisions where a helmet makes a difference is so small. I
get so tired of the 85% number, because it's really 85% of a very, very
small percentage to begin with, but the endless articles on helmets
don't do a good job of pointing this out.

One good sign in my area is that the bike racks at the local middle
school are packed, and they had to add a whole other bike parking area
because they didn't expect hundreds of kids riding to school. I really
like the bike I see with the extended rear rack that allows the kid's
trombone to be strapped to it--very clever. Of course I'd like to see
the kids not riding the wrong direction, or on the sidewalks, but this
may be too much to hope for! I think that if they had lockers then a lot
more kids would ride their bikes because they're carrying such heavy
backpacks that it makes riding difficult.