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Hats?

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UK and Europe
Published
22 July 2004
Last activity
29 July 2004
Original author
Mark Tranchant
Posts
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  1. On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 05:49:56 +0100, anonymous coward
    <[email hidden]> wrote (more or less):

    Quoted message said:

    I have been in 2 such collisions and I have not hit either my head or
    helmet. If your reasoning were correct, I should have suffered braindamage
    because the energies involved in the collision were far above what a
    helmet could have absorbed.

    Your head wasn't involved in either injury. So how are helmets
    relevant?

    --
    Cheers,
    Euan
    Gawnsoft: http://www.gawnsoft.co.sr
    Symbian/Epoc wiki: http://html.dnsalias.net:1122
    Smalltalk links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk) http://html.dnsalias.net/gawnsoft/smalltalk

  2. Gawnsoft said:

    On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 05:49:56 +0100, anonymous coward
    <[email hidden]> wrote (more or less):

    Quoted message said:

    I have been in 2 such collisions and I have not hit either my head or
    helmet. If your reasoning were correct, I should have suffered braindamage
    because the energies involved in the collision were far above what a
    helmet could have absorbed.

    Your head wasn't involved in either injury. So how are helmets
    relevant?

    I had a collision that (by your reckoning) should have exceeded their
    capacity to protect me. However, even in this situation I did not use
    my helmet's capacity to the full (or indeed at all), showing that there is
    no simple relationship between the speed at which a collision occurs and
    what happens to your head in a collision.

    Most collisions will neither be 'worst case' or 'best case' scenarios.

    This conversation seems familiar?!

    AC

  3. Gawnsoft said:

    On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 05:49:56 +0100, anonymous coward
    <[email hidden]> wrote (more or less):

    Quoted message said:
    Gawnsoft said:

    On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 08:30:10 +0100, "Steve Almond"
    <[email hidden]> wrote (more or less):

    >> The former. Risk compensation.
    >>
    >> >Do you know how many were wearing helmets?
    >>
    >> Cycle helmets are essentially irrelevant for crashes involving motor
    >> vehicles.
    >>
    >Seems like a rather extreme position.
    >Surely there must be some accidents in which they help?

    Practically none. They are designed for protecting against a fall to
    the ground while cycling at up to 7mph. (i.e. soak up one hundred and
    ten Joules)

    This is misleading - it assumes a worst case scenario. The best-case
    scenario would be to fall on an ice rink. In this case a helmet would
    protect you at whatever speed you were cycling at when you fell, provided
    there was nothing to slide into. In practice most accidents will be
    somewhere in between.

    Even if your helmet always protected you in collisions below 7mph, the
    braindamage you got in a 10mph accident might be less significant if you
    were wearing a helmet.

    To an extent, it's even worse than I stated. The 7mph assumes that
    the only weight contributing to teh impact is the weight of the head
    itself - i.e. the mass of the rest of the body does not contribute to
    the collision beytween head and ground.

    If you landed vertically, head first, even from stationary, this would
    exceed the helmet's capabilites many times over....

    ...

    Well come on and say it then:

    'Bicycle helmets provide no protection whatsoever in any accident at any
    speed'

  4. On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 07:48:12 +0100, anonymous coward
    <[email hidden]> wrote (more or less):
    ....

    Quoted message said:

    Well come on and say it then:

    'Bicycle helmets provide no protection whatsoever in any accident at any
    speed'

    If that's what I meant, I wouldn't have been so full of caveats in the
    first place.

    What I will say is 'Bicycle helmets provide very little protection
    whatsoever in any accidents. Even the best of them are, after all,
    designed to protect you from a fall from your bike at up to 7mph. In
    particular, don't count on them to protect you in accidents involving
    a motor vehicle. Also bear in mind that they can exacerbate the worst
    forms of head injury'.

    --
    Cheers,
    Euan
    Gawnsoft: http://www.gawnsoft.co.sr
    Symbian/Epoc wiki: http://html.dnsalias.net:1122
    Smalltalk links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk) http://html.dnsalias.net/gawnsoft/smalltalk

  5. On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 07:35:26 +0100, anonymous coward
    <[email hidden]> wrote (more or less):

    Quoted message said:
    Gawnsoft said:

    On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 05:49:56 +0100, anonymous coward
    <[email hidden]> wrote (more or less):

    Quoted message said:

    I have been in 2 such collisions and I have not hit either my head or
    helmet. If your reasoning were correct, I should have suffered braindamage
    because the energies involved in the collision were far above what a
    helmet could have absorbed.

    Your head wasn't involved in either injury. So how are helmets
    relevant?

    I had a collision that (by your reckoning) should have exceeded their
    capacity to protect me.

    And these collisions did indeed exceed the capacity of your helmet to
    protect you. As the accident did not involve that part of your head
    which was protected by a helmet.

    Quoted message said:

    However, even in this situation I did not use
    my helmet's capacity to the full (or indeed at all),

    You were in a collision which went /beyond/ your helmet's capacity to
    protect you.

    Quoted message said:

    showing that there is
    no simple relationship between the speed at which a collision occurs and
    what happens to your head in a collision.

    True. As I point out, even the 7mph fall can exceed a helmets
    capacity to protect. And there are collisions in which a helmet will
    provide some of its <110J capacity to your benefit.

    Quoted message said:

    Most collisions will neither be 'worst case' or 'best case' scenarios.

    True. However, when we look at population level statistics, we see
    that there is a /negative/ correlation between helmet use rates and
    head injuries.

    i.e. on average , for whatever reason, helmets make things worse.

    Quoted message said:

    This conversation seems familiar?!

    True - it happens every couple of weeks.

    --
    Cheers,
    Euan
    Gawnsoft: http://www.gawnsoft.co.sr
    Symbian/Epoc wiki: http://html.dnsalias.net:1122
    Smalltalk links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk) http://html.dnsalias.net/gawnsoft/smalltalk

  6. in message <[email hidden]>, anonymous

    coward (') said:

    Even if your helmet always protected you in collisions below 7mph, the
    braindamage you got in a 10mph accident might be less significant if
    you were wearing a helmet.

    Careful. There's a certain amount of evidence that wearing helmets
    increases - not reduces - brain damage because helmet wearing appears
    to promote rotational injury, perhaps because the helmeted head is
    larger. There is simply not enough data and we don't know.

    This is all _much_ more complex than is seems at first glance.

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

    Tony Blair's epitaph, #1: Here lies Tony Blair.
    Tony Blair's epitaph, #2: Trust me.

  7. in message <[email hidden]>, anonymous

    coward (') said:
    Gawnsoft said:

    On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 05:49:56 +0100, anonymous coward
    <[email hidden]> wrote (more or less):

    Quoted message said:

    I have been in 2 such collisions and I have not hit either my head or
    helmet. If your reasoning were correct, I should have suffered
    braindamage because the energies involved in the collision were far
    above what a helmet could have absorbed.

    Your head wasn't involved in either injury. So how are helmets
    relevant?

    I had a collision that (by your reckoning) should have exceeded their
    capacity to protect me.

    You didn't have a collision to your head. So the helmet is irrelevant.

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

    Morning had broken, and I found when I looked that we had run out
    of copper roove nails.

  8. Simon Brooke said:

    in message <[email hidden]>, anonymous

    coward (') said:

    Even if your helmet always protected you in collisions below 7mph, the
    braindamage you got in a 10mph accident might be less significant if
    you were wearing a helmet.

    Careful. There's a certain amount of evidence that wearing helmets
    increases - not reduces - brain damage because helmet wearing appears
    to promote rotational injury, perhaps because the helmeted head is
    larger. There is simply not enough data and we don't know.

    This is all _much_ more complex than is seems at first glance.

    What made me think the other day was the news that an old friend had had
    a motorbike crash, with a few minor fractures etc. Nothing new there but
    she was only doing 30mph yet it was quite nasty. 30mph is the upper
    range of my speed on the road when cycling. She was protected quite well
    by her leathers, armoured gloves and helmet. All I've got on in way of
    protection is a pair of cycling gloves and I'm often in shorts+t-shirt.

    Many times in accidents it isn't so much a simple *BANG*. If you go
    flying off your bike you're going to slide and scrape quite a way if you
    come off at speed. Which is good: the longer you take to stop the lower
    the g-forces.

    Last time I came off my bike (on a slippery bit of tarmac on a corner)
    it was low speed (maybe about 8mph) onto tarmac. My head came nowhere
    near the ground but my hand and knee took some damage and I've still got
    the scar on my knee. This is one reason I wear cycling gloves now. I
    intend to sacrifice the gloves to protect the more important parts of
    me; it's a natural reaction to put out your hand when falling over.

    There's no moral to this story. I just realised how relatively
    unprotected the average cyclist is on the road compared to motorcyclists
    and how much damage you could do if you fell off or were hit just from
    the scraping along 10m of tarmac rather than smacking the old peanut
    into anything. Whatever happend to the old helmets that were like quite
    thin strips of foam/leather? I would think they'd protect against cuts
    and scrapes without increasing rotational forces as much as the big
    chunky polystyrene helmets that I see everywhere in the shops and on
    most people's heads now.

    Personally I've stopped wearing cycle helmets on main roads or where I
    know I'm going to be going fast. There just doesn't seem to be much
    evidence in such things being any use. But I still wear one when
    pootling in the countryside, where I'm going slowly and looking at the
    wildlife more than where I'm going.

    Frink

    --
    Doctor J. Frink : 'Rampant Ribald Ringtail'
    See his mind here : http://www.cmp.liv.ac.uk/frink/
    Annoy his mind here : pjf at cmp dot liv dot ack dot ook
    "No sir, I didn't like it!" - Mr Horse

  9. "Gawnsoft" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    message news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Sun, 25 Jul 2004 09:49:54 +0100, "Steve Almond"
    <[email hidden]> wrote (more or less):

    Quoted message said:


    "David Martin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On 24/7/04 3:41 pm, in article [email hidden], "Steve


    Almond"

    Quoted message said:

    <[email hidden]> wrote:

    >
    >> I will wear my helmet in icy conditions, simply because I have
    >> experienced how fast a bike on ice can have you on the ground.
    >>
    >
    > But it couldn't be as fast on a rain soaked diesel spill? or a
    > broken/collapsed front fork or wheel?

    No. Diesel on tarmac is absolutely no way as slippery as a few mm of


    powder

    Quoted message said:

    snow on steel smooth ice at -10C. Been there, done that, including the


    two

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    wheel slide on a diesel slick. Scary but no banana there. The ice one


    is

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    in

    Quoted message said:

    a league of it's own..

    Very convincing argument. I cannot refute this, having never ridden


    in -10c.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I HAVE come off a motorcycle on rain slicked diesel (at only about 30


    mph,

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    on a straight road). Believe me, I had NO say in which part of my body


    hit

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    the ground.
    Of course, I don't have the remarkable level of skill implied by some of


    the

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    responses in this thread...

    You were travelling at 'about' 30mph. Let's say 33mph.

    So the energy your muscles had to control, relative to the energies a
    cyclist has to control at the 7mph a bike helmet is good for were more
    than 20 times as great. Think of it as the difference between
    controlling a 20kg barbell and controlling a 450kg barbell.

    Plus the reaction time you had available to respond to the handling
    problem was 4 times shorter.

    Very clever. Your attachment to 7 mph is touching. Does 8 mph mean instant
    death? Is it possible that at 11 mph a helmet might mean the difference
    between concussion and brain damage? How about at 20 mph where the effort to
    avoid head injury is not completely successful, but the helmet just makes
    that bit of difference.....?
    Your black and white calculations to support your views are, quite honestly,
    naive.
    My point was that at 30 mph (let's say 27 mph, not an impossible speed for a
    bicycle), I had no say in my bodies attitude when it hit the deck.
    But that's me, many people here have convinced themselves that either:

    1. They are skilful enough to avoid all accidents (30 years without coming
    off.....).
    2. They can defy the laws of physics (I'll keep my head from hitting
    anything hard....).
    3. They decide helmets are useless in some defined cases (say, hit a car
    head first which is travelling at 20/30/40 mph), therefore helmets are
    useless in all cases and not worth wearing.

    And I guess the saddest are the ones who will teach their kids to ride
    properly on a well-maintained bike, thus negating the need for a helmet.
    Said kid is never to have a moment of inattention; never to be reaching into
    back pocket for Mars bar at the moment when the braking tutorial in urgently
    required; never to be admiring the countryside and just have a silly 'off'?

    Despite this, I have found the arguments put forward (particularly in the
    references quoted) to be compelling. I, too, thought the matter of helmet
    wearing was black and white; now I see all shades of grey....

    Good luck,

    Steve

  10. in message <[email hidden]>, Doctor J. Frink

    (') said:

    On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 09:35:00 GMT, Simon Brooke <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    in message <[email hidden]>, anonymous

    coward (') said:

    Even if your helmet always protected you in collisions below 7mph,
    the braindamage you got in a 10mph accident might be less
    significant if you were wearing a helmet.

    Careful. There's a certain amount of evidence that wearing helmets
    increases - not reduces - brain damage because helmet wearing appears
    to promote rotational injury, perhaps because the helmeted head is
    larger. There is simply not enough data and we don't know.

    This is all _much_ more complex than is seems at first glance.

    What made me think the other day was the news that an old friend had
    had a motorbike crash, with a few minor fractures etc. Nothing new
    there but she was only doing 30mph yet it was quite nasty. 30mph is
    the upper range of my speed on the road when cycling. She was
    protected quite well by her leathers, armoured gloves and helmet. All
    I've got on in way of protection is a pair of cycling gloves and I'm
    often in shorts+t-shirt.

    On ITV2 on Sunday Robbie McEwen was showing off his various scrapes and
    bruises from the crashes he's had in this year's tour. Not pretty.

    Quoted message said:

    Last time I came off my bike (on a slippery bit of tarmac on a corner)
    it was low speed (maybe about 8mph) onto tarmac. My head came nowhere
    near the ground but my hand and knee took some damage and I've still
    got the scar on my knee. This is one reason I wear cycling gloves now.
    I intend to sacrifice the gloves to protect the more important parts
    of me; it's a natural reaction to put out your hand when falling over.

    Yup. I think track mitts are far more important safety gear than
    h*lm*ts.

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

    ;; killing [afghan|iraqi] civilians is not 'justice'

  11. in message <[email hidden]>, Steve Almond

    (') said:


    "Gawnsoft" <[email hidden]> wrote
    in message news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Sun, 25 Jul 2004 09:49:54 +0100, "Steve Almond"
    <[email hidden]> wrote (more or less):

    Quoted message said:


    "David Martin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...
    > On 24/7/04 3:41 pm, in article [email hidden],
    > "Steve
    Almond"
    > <[email hidden]> wrote:
    >
    > >
    > >> I will wear my helmet in icy conditions, simply because I have
    > >> experienced how fast a bike on ice can have you on the ground.
    > >>
    > >
    > > But it couldn't be as fast on a rain soaked diesel spill? or a
    > > broken/collapsed front fork or wheel?
    >
    > No. Diesel on tarmac is absolutely no way as slippery as a few mm
    > of
    powder
    > snow on steel smooth ice at -10C. Been there, done that, including
    > the


    two

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > wheel slide on a diesel slick. Scary but no banana there. The ice
    > one


    is

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    in
    > a league of it's own..
    >

    Very convincing argument. I cannot refute this, having never ridden


    in -10c.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I HAVE come off a motorcycle on rain slicked diesel (at only about
    30


    mph,

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    on a straight road). Believe me, I had NO say in which part of my
    body


    hit

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    the ground.
    Of course, I don't have the remarkable level of skill implied by
    some of


    the

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    responses in this thread...

    You were travelling at 'about' 30mph. Let's say 33mph.

    So the energy your muscles had to control, relative to the energies a
    cyclist has to control at the 7mph a bike helmet is good for were
    more
    than 20 times as great. Think of it as the difference between
    controlling a 20kg barbell and controlling a 450kg barbell.

    Plus the reaction time you had available to respond to the handling
    problem was 4 times shorter.

    Very clever. Your attachment to 7 mph is touching. Does 8 mph mean
    instant death? Is it possible that at 11 mph a helmet might mean the
    difference between concussion and brain damage? How about at 20 mph
    where the effort to avoid head injury is not completely successful,
    but the helmet just makes that bit of difference.....?
    Your black and white calculations to support your views are, quite
    honestly, naive.
    My point was that at 30 mph (let's say 27 mph, not an impossible speed
    for a bicycle), I had no say in my bodies attitude when it hit the
    deck. But that's me, many people here have convinced themselves that
    either:

    Injury increases with the fourth power of the speed of impact. So the
    injury incurred in 27mph impact is 81 times as severe as in a 9mph
    impact. So something which will protect you adequately in a 9mph impact
    will absorb 1.5% of the injury-inducing force of a 27mph impact. So
    it's more or less irrelevant.

    Quoted message said:

    1. They are skilful enough to avoid all accidents (30 years without
    coming off.....).
    2. They can defy the laws of physics (I'll keep my head from hitting
    anything hard....).

    Those are the laws of physics, mate. You can't avoid them, and an inch
    and a half of polystyrene foam does not cut it in road speed impacts.
    In fact the statistical evidence is that it's not just useless, it's
    worse than useless, but we don't yet really know why.

    Quoted message said:

    3. They decide helmets are useless in some defined cases (say, hit a
    car head first which is travelling at 20/30/40 mph), therefore helmets
    are useless in all cases and not worth wearing.

    They're not useless, but the impacts in which they are useful are not
    severe enough to cause serious injury. Helmets *are* useful in some
    circumstances and will protect you from scratches and bruising if you
    fall off off road. But they aren't a substitute to a thought through
    attitude to road safety.

    Think of it this way: how much polystyrene foam did your computer come
    wrapped in? Would you like to put your computer back in its original
    packaging and put it out in the main road for a car to hit? Do you
    think it would survive?

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
    ; ... of course nothing said here will be taken notice of by
    ; the W3C. The official place to be ignored is on www-style or
    ; www-html. -- George Lund

  12. Steve Almond said:

    Very clever. Your attachment to 7 mph is touching. Does 8 mph mean instant
    death? Is it possible that at 11 mph a helmet might mean the difference
    between concussion and brain damage? How about at 20 mph where the effort to
    avoid head injury is not completely successful, but the helmet just makes
    that bit of difference.....?

    Helmets work by slowing the rate of acceleration of the skull. The standard
    is set so that under the test conditions the deceleration is reduced to just
    under that which will cause physical damage to the brain (in a linear
    impact). So the 'my helmet saved my life' story at 7mph is credible when
    accompanied by a nasty headache, mild concussion from an exclusively linear
    impact that would have been worse in the absence of a helmet.

    At 11mph you would need a helmet (11x11)/(7x7) times thicker to get the same
    degree of protection, or two and a half times. At 20 mph over 4 times
    thicker.

    Quoted message said:

    Your black and white calculations to support your views are, quite honestly,
    naive.

    As is the lack or realism that puts the risk into context of everyday
    activities.

    Quoted message said:

    My point was that at 30 mph (let's say 27 mph, not an impossible speed for a
    bicycle), I had no say in my bodies attitude when it hit the deck.
    But that's me, many people here have convinced themselves that either:

    1. They are skilful enough to avoid all accidents (30 years without coming
    off.....).

    Seems reasonable to expect that one can avoid all but the rarest accidents
    by being skillful and careful.

    Quoted message said:

    2. They can defy the laws of physics (I'll keep my head from hitting
    anything hard....).


    That isn't defying the laws of physics, that is understanding them and
    working with them..

    Quoted message said:

    3. They decide helmets are useless in some defined cases (say, hit a car
    head first which is travelling at 20/30/40 mph), therefore helmets are
    useless in all cases and not worth wearing.

    A gross distortion. Helmets are useless in a large number of cases, worse
    than useless in a proportion that may or may not be larger than the
    proportion in which they are beneficial.

    Quoted message said:


    And I guess the saddest are the ones who will teach their kids to ride
    properly on a well-maintained bike, thus negating the need for a helmet.

    No. The saddest are those who believe that cycling is so dangerous they
    don't let their kids out on a bike AT ALL.

    Quoted message said:

    Said kid is never to have a moment of inattention; never to be reaching into
    back pocket for Mars bar at the moment when the braking tutorial in urgently
    required; never to be admiring the countryside and just have a silly 'off'?

    Of course they might, they have always done so. And the result is usually a
    few scratches and bruises. It is extremely rare for a kid to be killed/brain
    damaged in a single vehicle accident, a risk far lower than being killed by
    their fellow school pupils, or catching leukemia.

    Quoted message said:

    Despite this, I have found the arguments put forward (particularly in the
    references quoted) to be compelling. I, too, thought the matter of helmet
    wearing was black and white; now I see all shades of grey....

    It is very much shades of grey. Unfortunately helmets are most likely to
    help when you least need them, and most likely to harm when you would need
    them most.

    ...d

  13. On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:05:04 GMT, Simon Brooke <[email hidden]>
    wrote (more or less):
    ....

    Quoted message said:

    Those are the laws of physics, mate. You can't avoid them, and an inch
    and a half of polystyrene foam does not cut it in road speed impacts.

    Even worse, it's an inch-and-a-half of heavily-perforated polystyrene
    foam.

    --
    Cheers,
    Euan
    Gawnsoft: http://www.gawnsoft.co.sr
    Symbian/Epoc wiki: http://html.dnsalias.net:1122
    Smalltalk links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk) http://html.dnsalias.net/gawnsoft/smalltalk

  14. Steve Almond said:

    "Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    in message <[email hidden]>, Steve Almond
    ([email hidden]'😉 wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > I will wear my helmet in icy conditions, simply because I have
    > experienced how fast a bike on ice can have you on the ground.

    But it couldn't be as fast on a rain soaked diesel spill? or a
    broken/collapsed front fork or wheel?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    This is fantasy. An experienced road cyclist is most unlikely to just
    fall off even if there is diesel on the road (it's thirty something
    years since last I fell off on the road)

    Quoted message said:

    Congratulations, you should be OK for the rest of your life, then.
    I rode motorcycles for 37 years and had my first significant accident last
    year. So I'm quite experienced and did "just fall off", braking on a
    straight road at ~30mph. I was subsequently told the road had diesel on it,
    and it had started to rain very slightly.

    Having just started to rain lightly after a dry spell is a *very*
    dangerous time. Oily deposits which have been hiding in the cracks and
    microgullies of the road surface get floated up by the water to
    lubricate tyre/road contact.

    As rain increases the oily stuff gets washed away. But that first
    initial light rain can be lethal.

    --
    Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
    IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
    [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

  15. Simon Brooke [email hidden] opined the following...

    Quoted message said:

    Yup. I think track mitts are far more important safety gear than
    h*lm*ts.

    And given the only fall I've had in the last year which resulted in
    injury, padding for the rear. Having successfully flipped a KMX and
    landed [censored]-first, I can testify that a padded bum would be a good
    thing. I'm reasonably sure that I didn't manage to break my tail bone,
    but the bruising did seem to last a considerable time.

    Jon

  16. Inch and a half of foam. 7 mph.
    Therefore give up.

    I'm sure car seatbelts are designed to save lives at some specific speed (40
    mph, let's say).
    I sometimes drive at 70 mph, at which speed my seat belt will not save me in
    a serious collision.
    Using your logic, therefore, I should never wear a seatbelt in my car (and
    nor should you or your family).
    It IS a poor, illogical argument.

    Steve

    "Gawnsoft" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    message news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:05:04 GMT, Simon Brooke <[email hidden]>
    wrote (more or less):
    ...

    Quoted message said:

    Those are the laws of physics, mate. You can't avoid them, and an inch
    and a half of polystyrene foam does not cut it in road speed impacts.

    Even worse, it's an inch-and-a-half of heavily-perforated polystyrene
    foam.

    --
    Cheers,
    Euan
    Gawnsoft: http://www.gawnsoft.co.sr
    Symbian/Epoc wiki: http://html.dnsalias.net:1122
    Smalltalk links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk)


    http://html.dnsalias.net/gawnsoft/smalltalk

  17. Steve Almond [email hidden] opined the following...

    Quoted message said:

    Inch and a half of foam. 7 mph.
    Therefore give up.

    I'm sure car seatbelts are designed to save lives at some specific speed (40
    mph, let's say).

    As far as I understand it, seat belts are designed to work at any speed
    up to the maximum that the system is capable of sustaining, this will be
    impressively high. Secondly, the key point is that at the speeds at
    which a helmet will alledgely save lives, you would have to be
    incredibly unlucky to sustain serious injury. A helmet is thus not a
    "life saver" but a "scrape / bruise preventer".

    Quoted message said:

    I sometimes drive at 70 mph, at which speed my seat belt will not save me in
    a serious collision.

    Your seat belt will function at this speed. You may well be killed my
    something else. The parallel to this in helmet world is that the helmet
    will not function at this speed (It will fail catastrophically absorbing
    little energy, or absorb the correct energy but make no difference) and
    you may sustain additional injuries.

    Quoted message said:

    Using your logic, therefore, I should never wear a seatbelt in my car (and
    nor should you or your family).
    It IS a poor, illogical argument.

    Only if you don't understand it.

    Ignoring risk compensation in both cases, a seat belt may save your life
    and is unlikely to increase injury in the event of an accident (Daft
    centre seat waist straps excluded). A helmet is unlikely to save your
    life and may increase injury in the event of an accident. The problem
    with the "logic" of your argument lies in the direct comparison of
    apples and oranges.

    Jon

  18. On 26 Jul 2004 14:33:06 GMT, [email hidden] (Doctor J.
    Frink) wrote (more or less):

    Quoted message said:
    Simon Brooke said:

    in message <[email hidden]>, anonymous

    coward (') said:

    Even if your helmet always protected you in collisions below 7mph, the
    braindamage you got in a 10mph accident might be less significant if
    you were wearing a helmet.

    Careful. There's a certain amount of evidence that wearing helmets
    increases - not reduces - brain damage because helmet wearing appears
    to promote rotational injury, perhaps because the helmeted head is
    larger. There is simply not enough data and we don't know.

    This is all _much_ more complex than is seems at first glance.

    What made me think the other day was the news that an old friend had had
    a motorbike crash, with a few minor fractures etc. Nothing new there but
    she was only doing 30mph yet it was quite nasty. 30mph is the upper
    range of my speed on the road when cycling. She was protected quite well
    by her leathers, armoured gloves and helmet. All I've got on in way of
    protection is a pair of cycling gloves and I'm often in shorts+t-shirt.

    Many times in accidents it isn't so much a simple *BANG*. If you go
    flying off your bike you're going to slide and scrape quite a way if you
    come off at speed. Which is good: the longer you take to stop the lower
    the g-forces.

    Last time I came off my bike (on a slippery bit of tarmac on a corner)
    it was low speed (maybe about 8mph) onto tarmac. My head came nowhere
    near the ground but my hand and knee took some damage and I've still got
    the scar on my knee. This is one reason I wear cycling gloves now. I
    intend to sacrifice the gloves to protect the more important parts of
    me; it's a natural reaction to put out your hand when falling over.

    Same here - I try always to wear padded fingerless mitts with
    leathered palms.

    And a woolly hat. I tend to fold the brim over to double it's
    thickness.

    Quoted message said:

    There's no moral to this story. I just realised how relatively
    unprotected the average cyclist is on the road compared to motorcyclists

    True - but we tend not to weave between lanes of high-speed motorway
    traffic...

    --
    Cheers,
    Euan
    Gawnsoft: http://www.gawnsoft.co.sr
    Symbian/Epoc wiki: http://html.dnsalias.net:1122
    Smalltalk links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk) http://html.dnsalias.net/gawnsoft/smalltalk

  19. Simon Brooke said:

    in message <[email hidden]>, anonymous

    coward (') said:
    Gawnsoft said:

    On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 05:49:56 +0100, anonymous coward
    <[email hidden]> wrote (more or less):
    >I have been in 2 such collisions and I have not hit either my head or
    >helmet. If your reasoning were correct, I should have suffered
    >braindamage because the energies involved in the collision were far
    >above what a helmet could have absorbed.

    Your head wasn't involved in either injury. So how are helmets
    relevant?

    I had a collision that (by your reckoning) should have exceeded their
    capacity to protect me.

    You didn't have a collision to your head. So the helmet is irrelevant.

    See my previous reply to Gawnsoft. It simply shows that there is no simple
    relationship between speed / the type and severity of head injuries.

  20. On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 00:23:11 +0100, anonymous coward
    <[email hidden]> wrote (more or less):

    Quoted message said:
    Simon Brooke said:

    in message <[email hidden]>, anonymous

    coward (') said:

    On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 06:23:56 +0000, Gawnsoft wrote:

    > On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 05:49:56 +0100, anonymous coward
    > <[email hidden]> wrote (more or less):
    >>I have been in 2 such collisions and I have not hit either my head or
    >>helmet. If your reasoning were correct, I should have suffered
    >>braindamage because the energies involved in the collision were far
    >>above what a helmet could have absorbed.
    >
    > Your head wasn't involved in either injury. So how are helmets
    > relevant?

    I had a collision that (by your reckoning) should have exceeded their
    capacity to protect me.

    You didn't have a collision to your head. So the helmet is irrelevant.

    See my previous reply to Gawnsoft. It simply shows that there is no simple
    relationship between speed / the type and severity of head injuries.

    There is no /absolute/ relationship. But at the population level,
    there's a fairly simple relationship between speed and severity of
    outcome.

    But then again, there are people who have fallen out of aeroplanes
    thousands of feet up in the air without a parachute and still survived
    the landing.

    Does this invalidate the many studies that show that jumping out of a
    plane in flight without a parachute is a good thing? No.

    There are no absolutes in anything. But that doesn't mean we should
    let our rational assessment of risk be overwhelmed by anecdotal
    flukery.

    The difference between the parachutes and bicycle helmets stuff just
    that, with parachutes, the statistical flukery is blindingly obvious,
    /and/ doesn't run counter to the prejudices of 'common sense'.

    There is also the fact that there are no population-level studies
    showing, on average, increased injury to the
    falling-out-of-aeroplanes population since the introduction of
    parachutes.

    --
    Cheers,
    Euan
    Gawnsoft: http://www.gawnsoft.co.sr
    Symbian/Epoc wiki: http://html.dnsalias.net:1122
    Smalltalk links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk) http://html.dnsalias.net/gawnsoft/smalltalk

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