Goodbye carbon stays and integrated headsets...

Ron Ruff said:

Just noticed that Litespeed has ditched both of these "features" on
their new bikes.

GOOD news!

Derk

Ron Ruff said:

Just noticed that Litespeed has ditched both of these "features" on
their new bikes.

Geee, headsets that are inside the frame and BBs that are outside....

Integrated HS hopefully will go away...carbon rear ends are
marketing...ti frames with carbon plugs are also-The more things
change, the more they stay the same. We had a great year with plain ol'
Moots ti and Waterford and Mondonico steel....

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ron Ruff said:

Just noticed that Litespeed has ditched both of these "features" on
their new bikes.

Geee, headsets that are inside the frame and BBs that are outside....

Integrated HS hopefully will go away...carbon rear ends are
marketing...ti frames with carbon plugs are also-The more things
change, the more they stay the same.

Yeah, like those steel forks and friction shifting on all the high-end
bikes! 😉 j/k just busting your chops.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Phil said:

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ron Ruff said:

Just noticed that Litespeed has ditched both of these "features" on
their new bikes.

Geee, headsets that are inside the frame and BBs that are outside....

Integrated HS hopefully will go away...carbon rear ends are
marketing...ti frames with carbon plugs are also-The more things
change, the more they stay the same.

Yeah, like those steel forks and friction shifting on all the high-end
bikes! 😉 j/k just busting your chops.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

You would be surprised how many down tube shifter bikes we sell....not
a lot but a few every year, some with friction as well...lever mounted
shifteing is 'nice' but certainly not essential.

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Phil said:

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ron Ruff wrote:
> Just noticed that Litespeed has ditched both of these "features" on
> their new bikes.

Geee, headsets that are inside the frame and BBs that are outside....

Integrated HS hopefully will go away...carbon rear ends are
marketing...ti frames with carbon plugs are also-The more things
change, the more they stay the same.

Yeah, like those steel forks and friction shifting on all the high-end
bikes! 😉 j/k just busting your chops.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

You would be surprised how many down tube shifter bikes we sell....not
a lot but a few every year, some with friction as well...lever mounted
shifteing is 'nice' but certainly not essential.

Out of curiosity, are they equipped as such, or are they custom-ordered that
way? How old are these buyers?

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Quoting Phil, Squid-in-Training <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Yeah, like those steel forks and friction shifting on all the high-end
bikes! 😉 j/k just busting your chops.

As the current Rivendell Reader observes, indexed shifting's been invented
and discarded in favour of friction once already...
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Distortion Field!
Today is Gloucesterday, November.

"David Damerell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoting Phil, Squid-in-Training <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Yeah, like those steel forks and friction shifting on all the high-end
bikes! 😉 j/k just busting your chops.

As the current Rivendell Reader observes, indexed shifting's been invented
and discarded in favour of friction once already...

And some people have discarded bikes in favor of walking. IOW, 1%'ers don't
count.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

"Phil, Squid-in-Training" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"David Damerell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoting Phil, Squid-in-Training <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Yeah, like those steel forks and friction shifting on all the
high-end bikes! 😉 j/k just busting your chops.

As the current Rivendell Reader observes, indexed shifting's been
invented and discarded in favour of friction once already...

And some people have discarded bikes in favor of walking. IOW,
1%'ers don't count.

Nice try, Phil, but you only are showing off your ignorance of the
history of bicycle design. Indexed shifting was done over 60 years
ago, brifters were done 50 years ago, and both went away as an
unnecessary complexity that reduced reliability. This wasn't 1%ers
either; it was the mainstream.

I've been riding bikes for, what, 40 years now and have been a bike
nut for most of that time. I've never seen a broken friction shifter,
but I've seen a dozen broken STI shifters and two broken Ergo
shifters.

My favorite bike's got no shifters! Second from the top:

http://www.frostybobs.org/gallery.html

Tim McNamara said:

"Phil, Squid-in-Training" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"David Damerell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoting Phil, Squid-in-Training <[email hidden]>:
>Yeah, like those steel forks and friction shifting on all the
>high-end bikes! 😉 j/k just busting your chops.

As the current Rivendell Reader observes, indexed shifting's been
invented and discarded in favour of friction once already...

And some people have discarded bikes in favor of walking. IOW,
1%'ers don't count.

Nice try, Phil, but you only are showing off your ignorance of the
history of bicycle design. Indexed shifting was done over 60 years
ago, brifters were done 50 years ago, and both went away as an
unnecessary complexity that reduced reliability. This wasn't 1%ers
either; it was the mainstream.

I agree index shifting was mainstream and stayed mainstream from its
invention to today. The internal gear hubs, Sturmey Archer, etc. are
index shifting. All of those 3 speed internally geared shifters in the
Netherlands, etc. are index shifting. 25 years ago I rode a 3 speed
bike with the index thumb shifter right by the brake levers on the
handlebars. No friction to it. Just click. Never noticed any
reliability issues. Index shifting seems to have worked perfectly for
50 years now. Click, shift, click, shift. No trimming derailleurs
with friction.

Very odd how Grant Petersen ignores the vast majority of commuting
bikes using index shifting for the past 50 years and focuses on his
miniscule followers who use friction shifting. But then he is
preaching to his choir, not the mainstream cycling community.

Quoted message said:

I've been riding bikes for, what, 40 years now and have been a bike
nut for most of that time. I've never seen a broken friction shifter,
but I've seen a dozen broken STI shifters and two broken Ergo
shifters.

My favorite bike's got no shifters! Second from the top:

http://www.frostybobs.org/gallery.html

"Tim McNamara" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Phil, Squid-in-Training"

<[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"David Damerell" <[email hidden]> wrote in

message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoting Phil, Squid-in-Training

<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Yeah, like those steel forks and friction shifting on all

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>high-end bikes! 😉 j/k just busting your chops.

As the current Rivendell Reader observes, indexed shifting's

been

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

invented and discarded in favour of friction once already...

And some people have discarded bikes in favor of walking.

IOW,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

1%'ers don't count.

Nice try, Phil, but you only are showing off your ignorance of

the

Quoted message said:

history of bicycle design. Indexed shifting was done over 60

years

Quoted message said:

ago, brifters were done 50 years ago, and both went away as an
unnecessary complexity that reduced reliability. This wasn't

1%ers

Quoted message said:

either; it was the mainstream.

Who cares about discarded designs, friction shifting sucks
compared to the current STI/Ergo designs. I raced on five-speed
Nuovo Record. I raced on nine speed STI. I will never, ever go
back to friction. I don't care if I have to replace an STI lever
every 15 or so years (my oldest are about 15 years old and still
going strong on my commuter bike). That is a price I am willing
to pay for crisp and convenient shifting. -- Jay Beattie.

Ron Ruff said:

Just noticed that Litespeed has ditched both of these "features" on
their new bikes.

2 of the 3 new Tri bikes still have integrated headsets.

-Nate

Quoted message said:

Very odd how Grant Petersen ignores the vast majority of commuting
bikes using index shifting for the past 50 years and focuses on his
miniscule followers who use friction shifting. But then he is
preaching to his choir, not the mainstream cycling community.

I wouldn't say he ignores it. But Rivendells are not 40 pound Dutch
utility bikes or English 3 speeds. 50 year old indexing is even more
unsuited to much of the riding Rivendell espouses than 5 year old ten
speed indexing is.

I'd be willing to bet Riv happily sells as many 9-speed Shimano barends
as they do "friction" Silver shifters (which aren't really friction,
anyway). The point it to have the indexing option (as the Shimanos do)
so you can still shift with a bent deraileur hanger or some other
mishap. It's simply the best system for unpredictable conditions (in
many riders' estimations), just as brifters are for races.

Most importantly, let's be accurate about pure friction in the manner
Campy et. al. from the 40s through the early 70s and ratchet or
retrofriction "friction" in the manner of Simplex and Suntour in the
late 70s and early 80s. If you've used either retrofriction or ratchet
friction (which is what Riv has always championed), you know the
difference in feel and ease of fine adjustment is important, especially
if you want to use 8-10 speed cassettes. One sees very few Rivendells
equipped with pure friction shifters.

(I'm also of the mind that friction-type systems work really well with
modern floating-pully type derailleurs and that the benefits of
Hyperglide cassette cogs are as important for friction as for
indexing.)

Anyway, to suggest that either friction or indexing is ideal for all
serious cycling applications is silly.

AK

In article <[email hidden]>, Qui

si parla Campagnolo said:

You would be surprised how many down tube shifter bikes we sell....not
a lot but a few every year, some with friction as well...lever mounted
shifteing is 'nice' but certainly not essential.

What of my favourite, barcons? Bulletproof as a d/t shifter, with the
friction option too! The time is right for a barcon resurgence
(insurgence?).

Luke

Quoted message said:

Tim McNamara said:

Indexed shifting was done over 60 years ago, brifters were done 50
years ago, and both went away as an unnecessary complexity that
reduced reliability. This wasn't 1%ers either; it was the
mainstream.

I agree index shifting was mainstream and stayed mainstream from its
invention to today.

Umm, no. Indexed shifting was not mainstream until SunTour and
then Shimano reintroduced it about 20 years ago. Except for hub
gears, as you note:

Quoted message said:

The internal gear hubs, Sturmey Archer,
etc. are index shifting. All of those 3 speed internally geared
shifters in the Netherlands, etc. are index shifting. 25 years ago
I rode a 3 speed bike with the index thumb shifter right by the
brake levers on the handlebars. No friction to it. Just click.
Never noticed any reliability issues. Index shifting seems to have
worked perfectly for 50 years now. Click, shift, click, shift. No
trimming derailleurs with friction.

Hub gears have, however, been marginal in the US and Europe for 35 to
60 years. Once the derailleur was reliable (1930s) it rapidly
supplanted the inefficient and slippy S-A tin cans. Except in
England, which may be related to (1) Made in Britain and (2) weather.

Personally I've always liked hub gears. Simple to use, relatively
reliable if you're kind of gentle with them (until the bad design
catches up with them, anyway; fixed in the new S-A hubs with the
ball-locking mechanism). There's something dignified and genteel
about them, and that tick-tick-tick is soothing.

Quoted message said:

Very odd how Grant Petersen ignores the vast majority of commuting
bikes using index shifting for the past 50 years and focuses on his
miniscule followers who use friction shifting. But then he is
preaching to his choir, not the mainstream cycling community.

You'll have to take that up with Grant. His approach must appeal to
enough of the mainstream to keep him in business and employing nearly
a dozen people more or less full time. More power to him, I say.

Personally, I've never had a problem with friction shifting. It's not
hard, it's really reliable and it's simple. I used STI and then Ergo
in my racing days (1992 to 2000) and still have it on my tandem and my
old racing bike. It's nice, it's convenient, it's non-essential. I
prefer bar-end friction shifters. To each their own.

In article <[email hidden]>,

David Damerell said:

Quoting Phil, Squid-in-Training <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Yeah, like those steel forks and friction shifting on all the high-end
bikes! 😉 j/k just busting your chops.

As the current Rivendell Reader observes, indexed shifting's been invented
and discarded in favour of friction once already...

I run down tube shifters with the option for indexed
shifting on the rear derailleur. I very much like indexed
shifting, and will not willingly change back to friction.
Do not think I will ever move my shifters off of the down
tube.

--
Michael Press

Jay Beattie said:

Who cares about discarded designs, friction shifting sucks compared
to the current STI/Ergo designs. I raced on five-speed Nuovo
Record. I raced on nine speed STI. I will never, ever go back to
friction. I don't care if I have to replace an STI lever every 15
or so years (my oldest are about 15 years old and still going strong
on my commuter bike). That is a price I am willing to pay for crisp
and convenient shifting. -- Jay Beattie.

Isn't it nice that there is choice? I find nothing inconvenient or
non-crisp about friction shifting. I find nothing particularly
preferable about Ergo and dislike STI quite a bit. Moving my hands to
shift presents no problems. But it's great that there is choice and
we can each use what we prefer.

Luke said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Qui

si parla Campagnolo said:

You would be surprised how many down tube shifter bikes we sell....not
a lot but a few every year, some with friction as well...lever mounted
shifteing is 'nice' but certainly not essential.

What of my favourite, barcons? Bulletproof as a d/t shifter, with the
friction option too! The time is right for a barcon resurgence
(insurgence?).

I've been using them all along. For us, would it be just a surgence?

- Frank Krygowski

Tim McNamara said:

I've been riding bikes for, what, 40 years now and have been a bike
nut for most of that time. I've never seen a broken friction shifter,
but I've seen a dozen broken STI shifters and two broken Ergo
shifters.

FWIW, since the early '80s, I've broken two friction shifters:
a Simplex downtube shifter, and a Deore thumbshifter, both for
the rear changer. These are both retrofriction shifters, and
on both the return spring fatigued and broke. Unfortunately,
friction alone wasn't enough to hold the derailleurs in low
gear.

So now, even if you've yet to see a broken friction shifter, at
least you've heard of them :-)

Feng Chen said:

Tim McNamara said:

I've been riding bikes for, what, 40 years now and have been a bike
nut for most of that time. I've never seen a broken friction shifter,
but I've seen a dozen broken STI shifters and two broken Ergo
shifters.

FWIW, since the early '80s, I've broken two friction shifters:
a Simplex downtube shifter, and a Deore thumbshifter, both for
the rear changer. These are both retrofriction shifters, and
on both the return spring fatigued and broke. Unfortunately,
friction alone wasn't enough to hold the derailleurs in low
gear.

So now, even if you've yet to see a broken friction shifter, at
least you've heard of them :-)

Bah, then you must have done something wrong 🙂. Applying grease to
the internals of the friction shifters should have fixed them right up.