Garage framebuilding?

Quoted message said:

Hmm. There is a certain wisdom here that cannot be easily ignored. But
where does one buy a new brazed steel fork that is inexpensive with a
240mm 1" threaded steerer tube that looks vintage?

If you mean vintage 80s and don't mind unicrown, a chrome Tange is
around $45. Looks the same as my 70s tange, 'cept for the crown.

http://www.bikemannetwork.com/biking/p/FK2482

Quoted message said:

I was planning on building a one-time jig out of MDF

Consider MDO (medium density overlaid) plywood. It is a high grade
plywood with a smooth resin surface on both sides. It is much stiffer
than MDF. It is usually made with good quality laminations that will
take screws in the edges. It is typically used for outdoor signs and
concrete formwork. A sheet of it would work for a reference plane. There
is also HDO plywood but it is hard to find.

http://www.canply.org/english/products/overlaidplywood.htm

Could scraps of sheet metal or old soup cans be used as flame shields
while brazing?

Dan said:

Could scraps of sheet metal or old soup cans be used as flame shields
while brazing?

Licence plates do fine 😉

--
---
Marten Gerritsen

INFOapestaartjeM-GINEERINGpuntNL
www.m-gineering.nl

"Tim McNamara" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Building your own frame is a very reasonable project. It's even more
reasonable if you can find someone with experience to coach you

through

Quoted message said:

it. Here's the experience I had:

http://www.frostybobs.org/bikebuild.html

The best advice you have received thus far is to buy the Paterek

Manual.

Quoted message said:

There is a new edition and it is an excellent resource that will save
you a lot of time. The methodology Paterek proposes is very practical
and useful. The book will answer every question you have raised.

http://www.timpaterek.com/

You don't need a jig. Many framebuilders do not use them. You do

need

Quoted message said:

a flat reference surface, though. Every joint should be correctly
aligned after completion and before the next joint is started. A flat
table or other such surface makes that a *lot* easier.

Looks good. I used to use 4' x 8' sheets of erasable white board
material to do full size layout drawings. That was way before
inexpensive easy to use CAD was available. I forgot about that.

The Paterek Manual looks great.

Chas.

Tim McNamara said:

Building your own frame is a very reasonable project. It's even more
reasonable if you can find someone with experience to coach you through
it. Here's the experience I had:

http://www.frostybobs.org/bikebuild.html

That was a good read! Size and geometry are quite similar to what I'm
thinking too.

Quoted message said:

The best advice you have received thus far is to buy the Paterek Manual.
There is a new edition and it is an excellent resource that will save
you a lot of time. The methodology Paterek proposes is very practical
and useful. The book will answer every question you have raised.

http://www.timpaterek.com/

The last time I contemplated building my own frame, I bought the
Paterek manual (15 years ago) and some Columbus SP tubes, Cinelli lugs,
Campy dropouts. I never got around to building the bike and now I can't
find that stuff. Argh!

Quoted message said:

You don't need a jig. Many framebuilders do not use them. You do need
a flat reference surface, though. Every joint should be correctly
aligned after completion and before the next joint is started. A flat
table or other such surface makes that a *lot* easier.

I have a desk with a 3/4" glass top that is as flat as anything I have
access to. I like the free space and pinning idea rather than a jig. I
have limited space, so being able to move things around and pack it up
easily (ha!) is a plus.

Joseph

Quoted message said:

As a winter project, I am toying with the idea of making my own lugged
steel frameset. It seems tubesets and lugs, etc can be had for about
$200 total. I don't have any fancy tools, but I have time and patience,
so I figure all the cutting and mitering and clean-up work shouldn't be
too bad. The issue is the brazing. My metalworking experience has been
welding exhausts on cars, some car body work, and sweating copper
pipes. None of these more than a handfull of times.

Find a copy of the Paterek Manual. Practice brazing on old tubes for a
while to get the feel of it.

Quoted message said:

I don't want to buy any more tools, so I was hoping I could get away
with my handheld mapp gas torch. Will this do the trick for brass
brazing? Should I consider silver? Am I going to use a zillion
disposable tanks?

A Mapp/air flame is unlikely to get hot enough for brass brazing,
particularly big pieces like BB shells and fork crowns. You really want
oxy/acetylene or oxy/propane to do a decent job.

Quoted message said:

I was planning on building a one-time jig out of MDF and giving it a
go. I mean how bad a frame could it be? Bending the fork blades is
something I'm not sure about.. ;-)

Paterek describes how to build plywood fixtures; for a one-off frame
that's probably all you'd need. Fork blades can be purchased pre-raked;
just cut off the part you don't need.

--

John ([email hidden])

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

That's very innovative, good for you. I wouldn't want my smoke detectors
going off all of the time though....

My brazing area didn't have smoke detectors -- in my expereince, they'll
go off from flux fumes anyway. When I was using the wooden jig, I
brazed outdoors in calm weather. Once I got a jig that didn't burn, I
brazed indoors, but in a garage without smoke detectors.

Quoted message said:

I've seen an old Brit frame builder living in the US grab a couple of
tubes, barely miter them with a half round file, shove them in a lug,
put one of them in a bench vice and start brazing. His paint jobs were
great! Good paint will cover a multitude of sins. ;-)

If you've seen the interior of some professionally-built frames, you
won't be as worried about the work of a competent amateur.

--
[email hidden] is Joshua Putnam
<http://www.phred.org/~josh/>
Braze your own bicycle frames. See
<http://www.phred.org/~josh/build/build.html>

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Looks good. I used to use 4' x 8' sheets of erasable white board
material to do full size layout drawings. That was way before
inexpensive easy to use CAD was available. I forgot about that.

My wooden jig started out as a full-size layout drawing. I primed the
plywood white, did my layout in pencil, and built the jig on top of the
drawing. After my first frame, I got Tim Paterek's DOS-based frame
plotting software, still have it somewhere. Not GUI, primitive by
today's standards, but it made fast, accurate layout drawings on a
plotter.

--
[email hidden] is Joshua Putnam
<http://www.phred.org/~josh/>
Braze your own bicycle frames. See
<http://www.phred.org/~josh/build/build.html>

Quoted message said:

My wooden jig started out as a full-size layout drawing. I primed the
plywood white, did my layout in pencil, and built the jig on top of the
drawing. After my first frame, I got Tim Paterek's DOS-based frame
plotting software, still have it somewhere. Not GUI, primitive by
today's standards, but it made fast, accurate layout drawings on a
plotter.

The software is available on Paterek's website:
http://www.timpaterek.com/software.htm
He certainly seems to be willing to answer questions from newbie
builders:
http://www.timpaterek.com/about.htm

Jeff

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

That's very innovative, good for you. I wouldn't want my smoke

detectors

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

going off all of the time though....

My brazing area didn't have smoke detectors -- in my expereince,

they'll

Quoted message said:

go off from flux fumes anyway. When I was using the wooden jig, I
brazed outdoors in calm weather. Once I got a jig that didn't burn, I
brazed indoors, but in a garage without smoke detectors.

Quoted message said:

I've seen an old Brit frame builder living in the US grab a couple

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

tubes, barely miter them with a half round file, shove them in a

lug,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

put one of them in a bench vice and start brazing. His paint jobs

were

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

great! Good paint will cover a multitude of sins. ;-)

If you've seen the interior of some professionally-built frames, you
won't be as worried about the work of a competent amateur.

--
[email hidden] is Joshua Putnam

Years ago a friend brought me his mid 60s Cinelli frame to replace the
top and down tube after mating with the back of a car. When I cut off
the head tube I discovered not only were the tubes not mitered but there
was over a 1/4" (6mm) gap between the head tube and the other 2 tubes.
The lugs were the only thing holding the top, seat and down tube
together.

A friend had a beautiful 1973 Colnago that had a rattle in the frame. We
used a fiber optics device to look into the top tube through a hole in
the seat tube. There was a 6" piece of brazing rod rolling around in the
top tube. We used some Elmers glue to fix the problem.

In the mid 70s a customer brought a new all Campy Bob Jackson into our
shop. He said it handled "squirrelly". I took it around the block for a
test ride, he was right. I checked the rear dropouts with a set of Campy
dropout tools and found that one chainstay was almost 1/2" shorter than
the other plus the whole frame was out of alignment by about 1/2".

Chas.

John Thompson said:

Paterek describes how to build plywood fixtures; for a one-off frame
that's probably all you'd need. Fork blades can be purchased pre-raked;
just cut off the part you don't need.

Another good idea is to find a local builder and get him to coash you
for 1-2 hrs on your brazing, and/or borrow his jigs for raking the
fork(s).

As it's not terribly profitable to make frames these days, I think
that a local builder would give you an affordable rate for his
tutoring services.

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

* * Chas said:

In the mid 70s a customer brought a new all Campy Bob Jackson into our
shop. He said it handled "squirrelly". I took it around the block for a
test ride, he was right. I checked the rear dropouts with a set of Campy
dropout tools and found that one chainstay was almost 1/2" shorter than
the other plus the whole frame was out of alignment by about 1/2".

This is normal for a Bob Jackson frameset *grin*.

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

Donald Gillies said:

John Thompson said:

Paterek describes how to build plywood fixtures; for a one-off frame
that's probably all you'd need. Fork blades can be purchased pre-raked;
just cut off the part you don't need.

Another good idea is to find a local builder and get him to coash you
for 1-2 hrs on your brazing, and/or borrow his jigs for raking the
fork(s).

As it's not terribly profitable to make frames these days, I think
that a local builder would give you an affordable rate for his
tutoring services.

To my knowledge there are no local builders. Even exotic materials like
some of the special boards mentioned earlier are unobtainable here in
the sticks. I'm on my own!

Joseph

You're probably not on your own. Find someone on this mailing list to
help you learn.

http://search.bikelist.org/query.asp?SearchString=&FMMod=-1d&FMModDate=&SortBy=MsgDate%5Ba%5D&Scope=framebuilders&RecordsPerPage=250

This is a beginner's mailing list now, with many of the best minds in
the business (richard sachs, brian baylis, joe starck, etc.) tutoring
the beginners.

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA, USA

Quoted message said:

As a winter project, I am toying with the idea of making my own lugged
steel frameset. It seems tubesets and lugs, etc can be had for about
$200 total. I don't have any fancy tools, but I have time and patience,
so I figure all the cutting and mitering and clean-up work shouldn't be
too bad. The issue is the brazing. My metalworking experience has been
welding exhausts on cars, some car body work, and sweating copper
pipes. None of these more than a handfull of times.

Holy time-warp Batman! Back in the early-80s, everyone, I mean *everyone*
thought they could build a frameset, and did so. Many local shops had
someone cranking out their own special frame, that somehow was better than
what longtime experienced folk were producing, even if the serial number was
0002. And, for mysterious reasons that couldn't have had anything to do with
experience and materials familiarity, many of those frames found interesting
ways to fail.

And I'll admit I was bitten by the need to play myself. We had a small tool
shed on the property, and I converted that to my frame shop. I built a jig
out of... what else? Wood. And got some mapp gas torches, and read the main
book on framebuilding at the time (the Proteus book), and got to work. Lots
and lots and *lots* of filing involved, but I found that curiously
rewarding. The frame itself came out fairly nicely, and seemed to ride OK.
But the fork, which also looked nice... well, I just didn't trust my life to
it. I played with it, I tested it, it seemed OK, but never thought it safe
enough to ride on, probably because I'd seen somebody else's fork blades
pull out of the crown, due to poor brazing, which looked fine externally,
but nothing seemed to "stick" internally.

And the wood framebuilding jigs? Who would guess that they caught fire and
nearly burned down the shed? :>😉

Anyway, I decided that framebuilding was something best left to the experts.
But it was worthwhile doing it once.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi All,

As a winter project, I am toying with the idea of making my own lugged
steel frameset. It seems tubesets and lugs, etc can be had for about
$200 total. I don't have any fancy tools, but I have time and patience,
so I figure all the cutting and mitering and clean-up work shouldn't be
too bad. The issue is the brazing. My metalworking experience has been
welding exhausts on cars, some car body work, and sweating copper
pipes. None of these more than a handfull of times.

I don't want to buy any more tools, so I was hoping I could get away
with my handheld mapp gas torch. Will this do the trick for brass
brazing? Should I consider silver? Am I going to use a zillion
disposable tanks?

I was planning on building a one-time jig out of MDF and giving it a
go. I mean how bad a frame could it be? Bending the fork blades is
something I'm not sure about.. ;-)

Joseph

Quoted message said:

Donald Gillies said:

John Thompson said:

Paterek describes how to build plywood fixtures; for a one-off frame
that's probably all you'd need. Fork blades can be purchased pre-raked;
just cut off the part you don't need.

Another good idea is to find a local builder and get him to coash you
for 1-2 hrs on your brazing, and/or borrow his jigs for raking the
fork(s).

As it's not terribly profitable to make frames these days, I think
that a local builder would give you an affordable rate for his
tutoring services.

To my knowledge there are no local builders. Even exotic materials like
some of the special boards mentioned earlier are unobtainable here in
the sticks. I'm on my own!

Joseph

http://www.littlefishbicycles.com/frame/

On Fri, 01 Dec 2006 07:36:32 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As a winter project, I am toying with the idea of making my own lugged
steel frameset. It seems tubesets and lugs, etc can be had for about
$200 total. I don't have any fancy tools, but I have time and patience,
so I figure all the cutting and mitering and clean-up work shouldn't be
too bad. The issue is the brazing. My metalworking experience has been
welding exhausts on cars, some car body work, and sweating copper
pipes. None of these more than a handfull of times.

Holy time-warp Batman! Back in the early-80s, everyone, I mean *everyone*
thought they could build a frameset, and did so. Many local shops had
someone cranking out their own special frame, that somehow was better than
what longtime experienced folk were producing, even if the serial number was
0002. And, for mysterious reasons that couldn't have had anything to do with
experience and materials familiarity, many of those frames found interesting
ways to fail.

And I'll admit I was bitten by the need to play myself. We had a small tool
shed on the property, and I converted that to my frame shop. I built a jig
out of... what else? Wood. And got some mapp gas torches, and read the main
book on framebuilding at the time (the Proteus book), and got to work. Lots
and lots and *lots* of filing involved, but I found that curiously
rewarding. The frame itself came out fairly nicely, and seemed to ride OK.
But the fork, which also looked nice... well, I just didn't trust my life to
it. I played with it, I tested it, it seemed OK, but never thought it safe
enough to ride on, probably because I'd seen somebody else's fork blades
pull out of the crown, due to poor brazing, which looked fine externally,
but nothing seemed to "stick" internally.

The one thing I know about brazing is that experience counts. In a big way,
because you get situations like forks where nondestructive testing isn't really
possible, so what you need is a lot of practice followed by destructive testing.

Quoted message said:

And the wood framebuilding jigs? Who would guess that they caught fire and
nearly burned down the shed? :>😉

Fancy that. It's the concentrating on the joint that does it. Everything else
erupting in fume and flame and you're still zeroed in on the glowing bit.

Quoted message said:

Anyway, I decided that framebuilding was something best left to the experts.
But it was worthwhile doing it once.

See it's that last one that gets us all.

Ron
Tempted

Quoted message said:

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi All,

As a winter project, I am toying with the idea of making my own lugged
steel frameset. It seems tubesets and lugs, etc can be had for about
$200 total. I don't have any fancy tools, but I have time and patience,
so I figure all the cutting and mitering and clean-up work shouldn't be
too bad. The issue is the brazing. My metalworking experience has been
welding exhausts on cars, some car body work, and sweating copper
pipes. None of these more than a handfull of times.

I don't want to buy any more tools, so I was hoping I could get away
with my handheld mapp gas torch. Will this do the trick for brass
brazing? Should I consider silver? Am I going to use a zillion
disposable tanks?

I was planning on building a one-time jig out of MDF and giving it a
go. I mean how bad a frame could it be? Bending the fork blades is
something I'm not sure about.. ;-)

Joseph