Garage framebuilding?

email hidden said:

Hi All,

<SNIP>

Quoted message said:

I don't want to buy any more tools, so I was hoping I could get away
with my handheld mapp gas torch. Will this do the trick for brass
brazing? Should I consider silver? Am I going to use a zillion
disposable tanks?

<SNIP>

Quoted message said:

Joseph

I've brazed together a couple of bicycle trailers using hand-held MAPP torch
I've probably done more joints then would be in a single bike frame
and am still of the first bottle (just!).

Cheers

Joel

Quoted message said:

Hi All,

As a winter project, I am toying with the idea of making my own lugged
steel frameset. It seems tubesets and lugs, etc can be had for about
$200 total. I don't have any fancy tools, but I have time and patience,
so I figure all the cutting and mitering and clean-up work shouldn't be
too bad. The issue is the brazing. My metalworking experience has been
welding exhausts on cars, some car body work, and sweating copper
pipes. None of these more than a handfull of times.

I don't want to buy any more tools, so I was hoping I could get away
with my handheld mapp gas torch. Will this do the trick for brass
brazing? Should I consider silver? Am I going to use a zillion
disposable tanks?

I don't think you can do brass with mapp on something as large and dissipative
as a bike frame. Maybe with a preheat oven..... I'm sure silver will do the job
and can be done with mapp.

Quoted message said:

I was planning on building a one-time jig out of MDF and giving it a
go. I mean how bad a frame could it be? Bending the fork blades is
something I'm not sure about.. ;-)

You know you'll be the stud bike dork if you do this. We'll all have to bow in
homage.

Ron

RonSonic said:

Quoted message said:

Hi All,

As a winter project, I am toying with the idea of making my own lugged
steel frameset.

[snip]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I was planning on building a one-time jig out of MDF and giving it a
go. I mean how bad a frame could it be? Bending the fork blades is
something I'm not sure about.. ;-)

You know you'll be the stud bike dork if you do this. We'll all have to bow in
homage.

I'd carry his books to class for sure. ;-)

Do it and do a little web page about it to keep the rest of us
entertained through the winter. FWIW google does free web pages now:
Pages.google.com

"How hard can it be?" -Kinky Friedman

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

I don't want to buy any more tools, so I was hoping I could get away
with my handheld mapp gas torch. Will this do the trick for brass
brazing? Should I consider silver? Am I going to use a zillion
disposable tanks?

Some hand-held MAPP torches are big enough for brass-brazing a frame,
others aren't. The really heavy joints are the problem, like the bottom
bracket shell and some fork crowns. A lot of metal to heat at once.

If you happen to have a propane hand torch, too, you can leave it
heating the shell overall and use the MAPP torch for the individual
joints. Not elegant, but I've done it.

Quoted message said:

I was planning on building a one-time jig out of MDF and giving it a
go. I mean how bad a frame could it be? Bending the fork blades is
something I'm not sure about.. ;-)

I'd suggest using a professionally built fork until you're very
confident of your brazing skills. A failed fork is a catastrophic
failure that can kill or maim you. Most other frame joints have more
forgiving failure modes.

--
[email hidden] is Joshua Putnam
<http://www.phred.org/~josh/>
Braze your own bicycle frames. See
<http://www.phred.org/~josh/build/build.html>

Quoted message said:

Hi All,

As a winter project, I am toying with the idea of making my own lugged
steel frameset. It seems tubesets and lugs, etc can be had for about
$200 total. I don't have any fancy tools, but I have time and patience,
so I figure all the cutting and mitering and clean-up work shouldn't be
too bad. The issue is the brazing. My metalworking experience has been
welding exhausts on cars, some car body work, and sweating copper
pipes. None of these more than a handfull of times.

I don't want to buy any more tools, so I was hoping I could get away
with my handheld mapp gas torch. Will this do the trick for brass
brazing? Should I consider silver? Am I going to use a zillion
disposable tanks?

I was planning on building a one-time jig out of MDF and giving it a
go. I mean how bad a frame could it be? Bending the fork blades is
something I'm not sure about.. ;-)

Joseph

Why not try a composite frame?
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/howibuil.htm

RonSonic said:

Quoted message said:

Hi All,

As a winter project, I am toying with the idea of making my own lugged
steel frameset. It seems tubesets and lugs, etc can be had for about
$200 total. I don't have any fancy tools, but I have time and patience,
so I figure all the cutting and mitering and clean-up work shouldn't be
too bad. The issue is the brazing. My metalworking experience has been
welding exhausts on cars, some car body work, and sweating copper
pipes. None of these more than a handfull of times.

I don't want to buy any more tools, so I was hoping I could get away
with my handheld mapp gas torch. Will this do the trick for brass
brazing? Should I consider silver? Am I going to use a zillion
disposable tanks?

I don't think you can do brass with mapp on something as large and dissipative
as a bike frame.

bike tube's real thin and can be done with mapp - just.

Quoted message said:

Maybe with a preheat oven..... I'm sure silver will do the job
and can be done with mapp.

agreed, silver is better if you're using mapp. need to avoid overheating.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I was planning on building a one-time jig out of MDF and giving it a
go. I mean how bad a frame could it be? Bending the fork blades is
something I'm not sure about.. ;-)

You know you'll be the stud bike dork

bike /geek/, dude. bike /geek/.

Quoted message said:

if you do this. We'll all have to bow in
homage.

indeed.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi All,

As a winter project, I am toying with the idea of making my own lugged
steel frameset. It seems tubesets and lugs, etc can be had for about
$200 total. I don't have any fancy tools, but I have time and

patience,

Quoted message said:

so I figure all the cutting and mitering and clean-up work shouldn't

be

Quoted message said:

too bad. The issue is the brazing. My metalworking experience has been
welding exhausts on cars, some car body work, and sweating copper
pipes. None of these more than a handfull of times.

I don't want to buy any more tools, so I was hoping I could get away
with my handheld mapp gas torch. Will this do the trick for brass
brazing? Should I consider silver? Am I going to use a zillion
disposable tanks?

I was planning on building a one-time jig out of MDF and giving it a
go. I mean how bad a frame could it be? Bending the fork blades is
something I'm not sure about.. ;-)

Joseph

I used oxygen and Mapp when I built frames in the mid 1970s. The
oxygen/Mapp flame put out more BTUs than oxy-acetylene even though
oxy-acetylene has a hotter flame at the tip.

Mapp flame has the property of wrapping around the tube providing more
even overall heat vs. oxy-acetylene which is pinpoint heat (depending on
the shape of the torch tip). Some, maybe many builders would disagree
with me on which is better.

I built a couple more frames for myself at a local frame builder's shop
in the early 90s using his jigs and oxy-acetylene setup with an
automatic fluxer. It worked sweet.

I would start out with fairly heavy gauge tubing for your first frame.
It's easy to overheat thin wall tubing in a few seconds. Try to find
some low melting temperature bronze or brass rod for the dropouts and
for attaching the seat stays to the seat tube. It's difficult to build a
fillet with silver. Use low melting temperature silver brazing material
without cadmium. There is some silver braze that melts at 1450° F.
Heating tubes over 1800° F can damage the steel. Use lots of flux and
make sure to get a tight fit between the tubes and lugs if you use
silver as it works best with about a .0015" gap. Also, Reynolds has
some air hardening steel tubes that are going to be more forgiving.

MDF burns real well so I suggest a non-flammable material for a jig.
;-)

I had custom built frame and fork jigs but an awful lot of bikes have
been built using a bench vise to hold the tubes - especially by Brit
frame makers. For starters you might want to take another poster's
advice and use a store bought fork.

There were 2 books written in the mid 1970s that would be very helpful
if you can find them:

"The Proteus Framebuilding Handbook" by Dr. Paul Proteus, 1976

"Bicycle Frames - A Close-up Look" by Joe Kossack, 1975

Have fun,

Chas.

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

MDF burns real well so I suggest a non-flammable material for a jig.
;-)

It sounds silly when you've used commercial frame jigs, but for a one-
off home builder, wood is really a fairly practical jig material. You
cut out around the joints so you aren't directly torching the jig, but
yes, the jig does burn a bit while you're working on it. At least mine
did -- it was plywood, not MDF.

Why wood? It's cheap, easy to work, and tolerances are close enough for
hobby work, if not for commercial building. My wood-jig frame came out
needing less than 1mm of aligning, not bad for a $20 jig.

Now, I wouldn't expect any commercial builder, even low-volume, to use a
jig like that. Adjustment is a joke -- my jig was screwed together, so
a change that takes a minute on a pro jig would take ten minutes on the
wood jig. Besides moving the clamp body on the plywood, you have to re-
shim it after screwing it down, to adjust for imperfections in the
plywood. And, of course, the jig did burn a bit, probably wouldn't have
been good for more than a dozen frames. (Don't know, got a screaming
deal on a used NorTac jig before starting my second frame.)

--
[email hidden] is Joshua Putnam
<http://www.phred.org/~josh/>
Books for Bicycle Mechanics and Tinkerers:
<http://www.phred.org/~josh/bike/bikebooks.html>

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

I don't want to buy any more tools, so I was hoping I could get away
with my handheld mapp gas torch. Will this do the trick for brass
brazing? Should I consider silver? Am I going to use a zillion
disposable tanks?

Some hand-held MAPP torches are big enough for brass-brazing a frame,
others aren't. The really heavy joints are the problem, like the bottom
bracket shell and some fork crowns. A lot of metal to heat at once.

If you happen to have a propane hand torch, too, you can leave it
heating the shell overall and use the MAPP torch for the individual
joints. Not elegant, but I've done it.

I can borrow one, and that might help keep the garage above freezing
too!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I was planning on building a one-time jig out of MDF and giving it a
go. I mean how bad a frame could it be? Bending the fork blades is
something I'm not sure about.. ;-)

I'd suggest using a professionally built fork until you're very
confident of your brazing skills. A failed fork is a catastrophic
failure that can kill or maim you. Most other frame joints have more
forgiving failure modes.

Hmm. There is a certain wisdom here that cannot be easily ignored. But
where does one buy a new brazed steel fork that is inexpensive with a
240mm 1" threaded steerer tube that looks vintage?

Joseph

* * Chas said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi All,

As a winter project, I am toying with the idea of making my own lugged
steel frameset. It seems tubesets and lugs, etc can be had for about
$200 total. I don't have any fancy tools, but I have time and

patience,

Quoted message said:

so I figure all the cutting and mitering and clean-up work shouldn't

be

Quoted message said:

too bad. The issue is the brazing. My metalworking experience has been
welding exhausts on cars, some car body work, and sweating copper
pipes. None of these more than a handfull of times.

I don't want to buy any more tools, so I was hoping I could get away
with my handheld mapp gas torch. Will this do the trick for brass
brazing? Should I consider silver? Am I going to use a zillion
disposable tanks?

I was planning on building a one-time jig out of MDF and giving it a
go. I mean how bad a frame could it be? Bending the fork blades is
something I'm not sure about.. ;-)

Joseph

I used oxygen and Mapp when I built frames in the mid 1970s. The
oxygen/Mapp flame put out more BTUs than oxy-acetylene even though
oxy-acetylene has a hotter flame at the tip.

Mapp flame has the property of wrapping around the tube providing more
even overall heat vs. oxy-acetylene which is pinpoint heat (depending on
the shape of the torch tip). Some, maybe many builders would disagree
with me on which is better.

I built a couple more frames for myself at a local frame builder's shop
in the early 90s using his jigs and oxy-acetylene setup with an
automatic fluxer. It worked sweet.

I would start out with fairly heavy gauge tubing for your first frame.
It's easy to overheat thin wall tubing in a few seconds. Try to find
some low melting temperature bronze or brass rod for the dropouts and
for attaching the seat stays to the seat tube. It's difficult to build a
fillet with silver. Use low melting temperature silver brazing material
without cadmium. There is some silver braze that melts at 1450° F.
Heating tubes over 1800° F can damage the steel. Use lots of flux and
make sure to get a tight fit between the tubes and lugs if you use
silver as it works best with about a .0015" gap. Also, Reynolds has
some air hardening steel tubes that are going to be more forgiving.

I was planning on using the heaviest stuff I can find. I'm on the large
side, so a lightweight frame is pointless for my purposed. Is there any
reason I shouldn't use silver?

Quoted message said:

MDF burns real well so I suggest a non-flammable material for a jig.

I have big fire-extinguisher...

Quoted message said:

;-)

I had custom built frame and fork jigs but an awful lot of bikes have
been built using a bench vise to hold the tubes - especially by Brit
frame makers. For starters you might want to take another poster's
advice and use a store bought fork.

So using a vise with just some sort of mini-jig rigged up for each
joint as you go along?

Quoted message said:

There were 2 books written in the mid 1970s that would be very helpful
if you can find them:

"The Proteus Framebuilding Handbook" by Dr. Paul Proteus, 1976

"Bicycle Frames - A Close-up Look" by Joe Kossack, 1975

Have fun,

Will do!

Joseph

Quoted message said:

Hmm. There is a certain wisdom here that cannot be easily ignored. But
where does one buy a new brazed steel fork that is inexpensive with a
240mm 1" threaded steerer tube that looks vintage?

forget about your first time frame being cheap
--
---
Marten Gerritsen

INFOapestaartjeM-GINEERINGpuntNL
www.m-gineering.nl

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

MDF burns real well so I suggest a non-flammable material for a jig.

I have big fire-extinguisher...

a few strategically placed bits of aluminium will give a marked
improvement of the airquality!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

There were 2 books written in the mid 1970s that would be very helpful
if you can find them:

"The Proteus Framebuilding Handbook" by Dr. Paul Proteus, 1976

not all that good when it came out

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Bicycle Frames - A Close-up Look" by Joe Kossack, 1975

get the current Paterek manual

--
---
Marten Gerritsen

INFOapestaartjeM-GINEERINGpuntNL
www.m-gineering.nl

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

I don't want to buy any more tools, so I was hoping I could get away
with my handheld mapp gas torch. Will this do the trick for brass
brazing? Should I consider silver? Am I going to use a zillion
disposable tanks?

Some hand-held MAPP torches are big enough for brass-brazing a frame,
others aren't. The really heavy joints are the problem, like the bottom
bracket shell and some fork crowns. A lot of metal to heat at once.

If you happen to have a propane hand torch, too, you can leave it
heating the shell overall and use the MAPP torch for the individual
joints. Not elegant, but I've done it.

I can borrow one, and that might help keep the garage above freezing
too!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I was planning on building a one-time jig out of MDF and giving it a
go. I mean how bad a frame could it be? Bending the fork blades is
something I'm not sure about.. ;-)

I'd suggest using a professionally built fork until you're very
confident of your brazing skills. A failed fork is a catastrophic
failure that can kill or maim you. Most other frame joints have more
forgiving failure modes.

Hmm. There is a certain wisdom here that cannot be easily ignored. But
where does one buy a new brazed steel fork that is inexpensive with a
240mm 1" threaded steerer tube that looks vintage?

Joseph

Well, you could start with a vintage fork, and replace the steerer
tube...

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

These steel tange forks don't exactly look vintage, but you could play
around with them - they're only $29.95, you could add braze-ons, get
it chromed, etc.

http://www.novacycles.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=45&products_id=1291

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

Donald Gillies said:

These steel tange forks don't exactly look vintage, but you could play
around with them - they're only $29.95, you could add braze-ons, get
it chromed, etc.

http://www.novacycles.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=45&products_id=1291

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

I'll probably get that one, as that is where I was planning to get the
rest of the stuff. Unicrown and welded is too bad, I wonder how clean
the welds are. I'd really like a Tange T-2401 like at the bottom of
this page:

http://www.tange-design.com/tange_2005/forks.htm

Joseph

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Donald Gillies said:

These steel tange forks don't exactly look vintage, but you could

play

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

around with them - they're only $29.95, you could add braze-ons, get
it chromed, etc.

http://www.novacycles.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=45&products_id=1291

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

I'll probably get that one, as that is where I was planning to get the
rest of the stuff. Unicrown and welded is too bad, I wonder how clean
the welds are. I'd really like a Tange T-2401 like at the bottom of
this page:

http://www.tange-design.com/tange_2005/forks.htm

Joseph

I've seen similar NOS Tange chrome plated forks at a number of bike
shops. You might be able to find one in your area.

Chas.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

MDF burns real well so I suggest a non-flammable material for a jig.
;-)

It sounds silly when you've used commercial frame jigs, but for a one-
off home builder, wood is really a fairly practical jig material. You
cut out around the joints so you aren't directly torching the jig, but
yes, the jig does burn a bit while you're working on it. At least

mine

Quoted message said:

did -- it was plywood, not MDF.

Why wood? It's cheap, easy to work, and tolerances are close enough

for

Quoted message said:

hobby work, if not for commercial building. My wood-jig frame came

out

Quoted message said:

needing less than 1mm of aligning, not bad for a $20 jig.

Now, I wouldn't expect any commercial builder, even low-volume, to use

a

Quoted message said:

jig like that. Adjustment is a joke -- my jig was screwed together,

so

Quoted message said:

a change that takes a minute on a pro jig would take ten minutes on

the

Quoted message said:

wood jig. Besides moving the clamp body on the plywood, you have to

re-

Quoted message said:

shim it after screwing it down, to adjust for imperfections in the
plywood. And, of course, the jig did burn a bit, probably wouldn't

have

Quoted message said:

been good for more than a dozen frames. (Don't know, got a screaming
deal on a used NorTac jig before starting my second frame.)

--
[email hidden] is Joshua Putnam

That's very innovative, good for you. I wouldn't want my smoke detectors
going off all of the time though....

I've seen an old Brit frame builder living in the US grab a couple of
tubes, barely miter them with a half round file, shove them in a lug,
put one of them in a bench vice and start brazing. His paint jobs were
great! Good paint will cover a multitude of sins. ;-)

There was a commercial jig for sale on SF Craig's list this weekend for
$2000 used.

Chas.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

* * Chas said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi All,

As a winter project, I am toying with the idea of making my own

lugged

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

steel frameset. It seems tubesets and lugs, etc can be had for about
$200 total. I don't have any fancy tools, but I have time and

patience,

Quoted message said:

so I figure all the cutting and mitering and clean-up work shouldn't

be

Quoted message said:

too bad. The issue is the brazing. My metalworking experience has

been

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

welding exhausts on cars, some car body work, and sweating copper
pipes. None of these more than a handfull of times.

I don't want to buy any more tools, so I was hoping I could get away
with my handheld mapp gas torch. Will this do the trick for brass
brazing? Should I consider silver? Am I going to use a zillion
disposable tanks?

I was planning on building a one-time jig out of MDF and giving it a
go. I mean how bad a frame could it be? Bending the fork blades is
something I'm not sure about.. ;-)

Joseph

I used oxygen and Mapp when I built frames in the mid 1970s. The
oxygen/Mapp flame put out more BTUs than oxy-acetylene even though
oxy-acetylene has a hotter flame at the tip.

Mapp flame has the property of wrapping around the tube providing more
even overall heat vs. oxy-acetylene which is pinpoint heat (depending

on

Quoted message said:

the shape of the torch tip). Some, maybe many builders would disagree
with me on which is better.

I built a couple more frames for myself at a local frame builder's

shop

Quoted message said:

in the early 90s using his jigs and oxy-acetylene setup with an
automatic fluxer. It worked sweet.

I would start out with fairly heavy gauge tubing for your first frame.
It's easy to overheat thin wall tubing in a few seconds. Try to find
some low melting temperature bronze or brass rod for the dropouts and
for attaching the seat stays to the seat tube. It's difficult to build

a

Quoted message said:

fillet with silver. Use low melting temperature silver brazing

material

Quoted message said:

without cadmium. There is some silver braze that melts at 1450° F.
Heating tubes over 1800° F can damage the steel. Use lots of flux and
make sure to get a tight fit between the tubes and lugs if you use
silver as it works best with about a .0015" gap. Also, Reynolds has
some air hardening steel tubes that are going to be more forgiving.

I was planning on using the heaviest stuff I can find. I'm on the large
side, so a lightweight frame is pointless for my purposed. Is there any
reason I shouldn't use silver?

Quoted message said:

MDF burns real well so I suggest a non-flammable material for a jig.

I have big fire-extinguisher...

Quoted message said:

;-)

I had custom built frame and fork jigs but an awful lot of bikes have
been built using a bench vise to hold the tubes - especially by Brit
frame makers. For starters you might want to take another poster's
advice and use a store bought fork.

So using a vise with just some sort of mini-jig rigged up for each
joint as you go along?

Quoted message said:

There were 2 books written in the mid 1970s that would be very helpful
if you can find them:

"The Proteus Framebuilding Handbook" by Dr. Paul Proteus, 1976

"Bicycle Frames - A Close-up Look" by Joe Kossack, 1975

Have fun,

Will do!

Joseph

If your handy enough to build a frame, you can make some of your own
fixtures to hold in a vise. One hint, some builders think that it's
ungodly to pin the the lugs to the tubes but look into the bottom
bracket on any top Italian steel frame and you'll see the evidence that
most of them have been pinned. Finishing nails work good and you can
file the ends off after you are done.

You might want to get some cheap carbon steel tubing from a metal
supplier to practice on first. I built a number of very large frames. I
used straight gage seamless 4130 tubing for the seat and down tubes on
bikes over 67cm.

Silver flows really nice and you don't have to worry too much about
overheating the tubes.

Chas.

Building your own frame is a very reasonable project. It's even more
reasonable if you can find someone with experience to coach you through
it. Here's the experience I had:

http://www.frostybobs.org/bikebuild.html

The best advice you have received thus far is to buy the Paterek Manual.
There is a new edition and it is an excellent resource that will save
you a lot of time. The methodology Paterek proposes is very practical
and useful. The book will answer every question you have raised.

http://www.timpaterek.com/

You don't need a jig. Many framebuilders do not use them. You do need
a flat reference surface, though. Every joint should be correctly
aligned after completion and before the next joint is started. A flat
table or other such surface makes that a *lot* easier.