FT estimate possible from longer rides? - Cycling Peaks

padawan said:

Hello,

I will buy the Cycling Peaks software soon! Like the decision to purchase my Power Tap, it just takes a while and I like to ask a lot of questions before making the decision.

Most of my training is lower intensity - I'm training for an Ironman and that necesitates a little less intensity to fit in all the volume. I haven't had time to effectively test my FT often through the protocols I've seen memtioned here (i.e. 2 x 20 min or by a 1:00 time trial). Still I'd like to get an idea of what (approximately - if the guess was within 10 watts that would be close enough for me at this point) my FT is.

So here are my questions:

1) Can CP software give you a decent estimate of your FT from analyzing a longer (hard) ride? Or do you still have to follow more high intensity testing protocols?
2) Can 'Normalized Power' can be used for estimating FT in that way?

I have a few downloads from good hard long rides that thoroughly fried my legs (5-6 hours of hilly/windy conditions) but the difficulty came from the length more than the intensity.

I even tried attaching a CSV file of one of these rides in case someone was bored and wanted to look at it (or cared to have a go at estimating my FT :o ) but the file is too big even zipped. Any way to break the file down?

Any help would be appreciated!

Pad

Given your comment above that I bolded, I think the answer to your question is "probably not". That is, unless you've really put the hammer down for an extended period of time, it's unlikely that you'd be able to extract a reliable estimate of your functional threshold power from the files that you have, even with the use of CyclingPeaks.

acoggan said:

Given your comment above that I bolded, I think the answer to your question is "probably not". That is, unless you've really put the hammer down for an extended period of time, it's unlikely that you'd be able to extract a reliable estimate of your functional threshold power from the files that you have, even with the use of CyclingPeaks.

Thanks for your quick response!

On these rides, there are definitely some extended periods of putting the hammer down. Examples would be a) almost 40 minutes of continuous climbing into a headwind - and intentionally working really hard or b) chasing my friend through rolling hills for a good hour with a pretty high perceived exertion.

But since that may have occured after a couple hours of riding, so my legs weren't exactly fresh - I having trouble accessing how much higher the average watts would be for that time period if my legs were more fresh. Can I use the concept of (searching for the right terminology 😕 ) CP or power/time curve to estimate? In other words can my CP 360 (from a 6 hr. ride) give me even a reasonable estimate of CP 60 or FT.

Somehow I suspect the likely response is "Just get out there and actually test it using one of the generally accepted protocols." Yes?

Thanks again for your time.

Pad

20 minutes isn't that long.

The CP curve is difficult if you do not have observations all along, and it is rarely straight.

padawan said:

Thanks for your quick response!

On these rides, there are definitely some extended periods of putting the hammer down. Examples would be a) almost 40 minutes of continuous climbing into a headwind - and intentionally working really hard or b) chasing my friend through rolling hills for a good hour with a pretty high perceived exertion.

But since that may have occured after a couple hours of riding, so my legs weren't exactly fresh - I having trouble accessing how much higher the average watts would be for that time period if my legs were more fresh. Can I use the concept of (searching for the right terminology 😕 ) CP or power/time curve to estimate? In other words can my CP 360 (from a 6 hr. ride) give me even a reasonable estimate of CP 60 or FT.

Somehow I suspect the likely response is "Just get out there and actually test it using one of the generally accepted protocols." Yes?

Thanks again for your time.

Pad

If what you want to do is, say, 20min L4 efforts, you could search your rides for your max 20min NP. In fact, your max 20min AP is in the summary stats for the rides. You could probably do your 20min L4 efforts at about this intensity to begin with. Now, is it likely that your absolute max 20min effort is higher than this? Yes, but probably not more than ~10%. So, in the worst case you would be doing your 20min efforts at ~90% of your max power for that duration. That's actually not a bad target anyway. And, you may be doing them at very close to your max 20min power, which is also a good target. Obviously, you can apply this approach to other durations but if you go too short (e.g., 5mins or less) it is more likely that your max power at that duration is more than 10% greater than your highest observed power.

RapDaddyo said:

If what you want to do is, say, 20min L4 efforts, you could search your rides for your max 20min NP. In fact, your max 20min AP is in the summary stats for the rides. You could probably do your 20min L4 efforts at about this intensity to begin with. Now, is it likely that your absolute max 20min effort is higher than this? Yes, but probably not more than ~10%. So, in the worst case you would be doing your 20min efforts at ~90% of your max power for that duration. That's actually not a bad target anyway. And, you may be doing them at very close to your max 20min power, which is also a good target. Obviously, you can apply this approach to other durations but if you go too short (e.g., 5mins or less) it is more likely that your max power at that duration is more than 10% greater than your highest observed power.

Rd, Thanks for your advice earlier in the year about the 2x20 or 3x20s, they are working out nice, since long term power is higher Im riding alot more comfortable in races, got bronze at the State Crits, thanks!

My question is about L5 (5min) intervals
What is the better scenario, if any:

I can only hold 270watts (120% of FT) for 4min (only do 3x)
I can hold 260watts (115% of FT) for 5min (can do 4-5)

These both fall in the L5 zone, so which is better,
the slightly higher watts/less duration or
the slightly lower watts/longer duration (extra minute)
Or are we just splitting hairs, since they are both in L5 zone?

Second question is:
I can hold a Heart rate of 175 for my L4 2x20min (83% of max HR 210)
I can only hold Heart rate of 185 for my L5 3x4min (88% of max HR 210)
Does this sound correct and would you estimate my lactate threshold somewhere between 175-185?

These workouts are all done on a indoor trainer, so conditions are always the same.

jeff828 said:

Rd, Thanks for your advice earlier in the year about the 2x20 or 3x20s, they are working out nice, since long term power is higher Im riding alot more comfortable in races, got bronze at the State Crits, thanks!

Hey Jeff, glad to hear that the L4s are working out for you. That's the cool thing about increasing your FTP. Instead of being "on the bubble" at race pace, you are well within your sustainable power and the ride is a lot more relaxed. I'd love to ride a race at an NP ~80% of my FTP. That would be one cool ride.

jeff828 said:

My question is about L5 (5min) intervals
What is the better scenario, if any:
I can only hold 270watts (120% of FT) for 4min (only do 3x)
I can hold 260watts (115% of FT) for 5min (can do 4-5)
These both fall in the L5 zone, so which is better, the slightly higher watts/less duration or the slightly lower watts/longer duration (extra minute)
Or are we just splitting hairs, since they are both in L5 zone?

Personally, I prefer to do my L5s at 120%FT, even if I have to shorten the duration. If you do them with an equal duration recovery, you can still do them in the same elapsed time (e.g., 5x4min w/4min recovery = 4x5min w/5min recovery).

jeff828 said:

Second question is:
I can hold a Heart rate of 175 for my L4 2x20min (83% of max HR 210)
I can only hold Heart rate of 185 for my L5 3x4min (88% of max HR 210)
Does this sound correct and would you estimate my lactate threshold somewhere between 175-185?

Your lactate threshold is probably less than 175. Lactate threshold is typically significantly less than your FTP as it simply represents the point where the blood lactate/power curve starts to ramp up. I don't think that knowing one's lactate threshold is very useful. I have no idea what my lactate threshold is and, if I did know, I don't know what I would do with that information.

jeff828 said:

Im riding alot more comfortable in races, got bronze at the State Crits... I can only hold 270watts (120% of FT) for 4min (only do 3x)

Ok, now wait a minute. Lemme ask a dumb question...

I'm not a racer but I thought one would need to be able to sustain much more power than that to place in a crit, even in Cat5. Am I wrong? I mean I know that tactics and sprinting ability would make a huge difference but I figured that even with an FTP of around 300 (@162lbs) I would get dropped.

There's a Cat4/5 flat crit race coming up next month that I want to try but I *really* don't want to get dropped. Plus I don't want to crash and get seriously injured. If I can do a 1-hour workout with a NP of 300 with a 10 second sprint in the 900 watt range every three minutes or so (that's one of the workouts on my current Hunter Allen training plan), would I at least be able to stay with the Cat 4/5 group? I thought it would take more than that.

I'd sure love to find some power files from a Cat 4/5 crit!!

--Steve

ZimboNC said:

Ok, now wait a minute. Lemme ask a dumb question...

I'm not a racer but I thought one would need to be able to sustain much more power than that to place in a crit, even in Cat5. Am I wrong? I mean I know that tactics and sprinting ability would make a huge difference but I figured that even with an FTP of around 300 (@162lbs) I would get dropped.

--Steve

It depends on who else shows up, what tactics are being used, and how technical the course is.
I have hung in cat 4 and 4/5, flat technical and nontechnical crits starting with fields of 100 to the end with a much, much lower FTP/kg than what you have
You can't tell much more than that - you have to race to see how you will do. Some other poster asked a similar question with similar numbers and obviously had some technical/non-fitness related issues that prevented him from staying with the pack.
The only timeg I have ever even come close to my FTP with NP from a crit was in a hilly crit or one in which I was in a breakaway or had to work to bring one back.

ZimboNC said:

I'd sure love to find some power files from a Cat 4/5 crit!!

Well, here's a 30min crit file. It's 55+ masters, not Cat 4/5, but I doubt that it would have required more power to stay with the Cat 4/5 group. The average speed is deceptive because the course was so tight (we were constantly turning). More revealing would be a match analysis. I'll attach that when I can get a chance to run it. That's what will take you out, cumulative matches, not NP.

ZimboNC said:

Ok, now wait a minute. Lemme ask a dumb question...

I'm not a racer but I thought one would need to be able to sustain much more power than that to place in a crit, even in Cat5. Am I wrong? I mean I know that tactics and sprinting ability would make a huge difference but I figured that even with an FTP of around 300 (@162lbs) I would get dropped.

There's a Cat4/5 flat crit race coming up next month that I want to try but I *really* don't want to get dropped. Plus I don't want to crash and get seriously injured. If I can do a 1-hour workout with a NP of 300 with a 10 second sprint in the 900 watt range every three minutes or so (that's one of the workouts on my current Hunter Allen training plan), would I at least be able to stay with the Cat 4/5 group? I thought it would take more than that.

I'd sure love to find some power files from a Cat 4/5 crit!!

--Steve

You shouldnt get dropped, just dont sit at the front and pull all day.
In my opinion, If you had a np of 300 for an hour you should slaughter the 5s, probably the 4s if you had racing experience, that is the key, experience, when to work hard, when not to, knowing when they are going to to accellerate before they actually do, so you dont have to all of a sudden stomp on the pedals & waste energy, you can wind up the speed/power smoothly cause you already anticipated the accelleration, knowing when you can ease up earlier than the field cause you know they are going to slow or you see the front of the field slowing, its all about saving energy and understanding the way the pack flows on a given course.

I have been racing over 10 years so I have a lot of experiance, & getting the sh.....kicked out of me :p , I just lacked power, like bridging, being able to put out power at the front, climb, but I can do fine in the pack/draft, like many can do, I just learned how to use my strengths & fudge my weaknesses when I need & not waste more energy than I need to. Remember its not the strongest guy that always wins, but now that my FT power is coming up, it makes racing alot easier, I can do what I want, when I want, most of the time, I still need to up it, 300 for an hour would be awesome, I would probably win most everything around here as a cat 3, & be a cat 1-2 in no time. Only reason I say that is because I managed to earn my points/way up to a cat 3 on learning how to race, because my power output is PITIFUL 🙁 , it was worse years ago, but I learned over the years how to manuver myself at the right times.

Stats:
Sprinter build, generate 1400watts, pretty easy 🙂
Max HR 210
10mi TT (flat, no wind) 21-22mph ave (sad) 🙁

I have a Max HR of 210 and raced the first 10 years in 45min-1hr crits at HR 195-205, never got below 192
50mi RRs at 190-205, never got below 187.

So I basically raced pegged all the time for many years, trained by myself & wrong, but I think it built a mental tuffness, and increased my ability to ride anaerobic for long periods of time. I can ride by myself at a HR 190-200 for 30-45min but not generate much power, so I find no good in being able to do that. So now that I am getting a bigger motor, racing is becoming easier, remember I got here by racing smart with my little 4cyl, 2barrel carburetor, now Im getting the 6-8cyl, 4barrel double pumper going 😄 and boy I wish I learned this years ago.

So I think you will do just fine, also listen to these guys on this forum, they are very knowledgeble & strong, more so than me.

RapDaddyo said:

If what you want to do is, say, 20min L4 efforts, you could search your rides for your max 20min NP. In fact, your max 20min AP is in the summary stats for the rides. You could probably do your 20min L4 efforts at about this intensity to begin with.

Thanks RD.

Very good advice on how to target training levels/wattages without having a more percise (from formal testing) idea of what my FT is. Kinda what I was looking for.

After I get the Ironman out of the way, I'm going to cut the swimming and running way down and focus more on the bike! Then hopefuly, I'll test myself regularly, get a better idea of my true FT and spend LOTS of time in L4!! 😄

Pad

padawan said:

Thanks RD.

Very good advice on how to target training levels/wattages without having a more percise (from formal testing) idea of what my FT is. Kinda what I was looking for.

After I get the Ironman out of the way, I'm going to cut the swimming and running way down and focus more on the bike! Then hopefuly, I'll test myself regularly, get a better idea of my true FT and spend LOTS of time in L4!! 😄

Pad

I have actually come around to a three-part performance testing process (MP at three durations from 3-30 mins). There's a thread around here somewhere about my current method, but it provides not only an estimate of FTP but max power at any duration you are interested in. It's based on the Critical Power Model. The good thing is that it does not require a full hour MP ride and, in fact, a 20-min MP ride is long enough. This approach is described by Andy in his (and Hunter's) book (FTP estimation method #5, p. 46). What Andy doesn't do (at least on p. 46) is to detail the value of having the entire MP/duration curve rather than simply one point (FTP). What he does do is to discuss the Critical Power Model extensively beginning on p. 47. IMO, this sidebar is worth the price of the book. I use this relationship all the time, from estimating my MP for a 30-min crit to estimating my MP for a 2-hour TT. Anybody who thinks he can ride at his FTP longer than an hour is drinking something stronger than Gatorade. Max power is a continually declining function of duration, period. Ain't no magic wand at 60 minutes.

Sorry to hijack -
Can someone point me to a thread that explains what all these abbreviations mean?
FT, FTP, MP, L4, RR, NP, etc... ?

wh0areume said:

Sorry to hijack -
Can someone point me to a thread that explains what all these abbreviations mean?
FT, FTP, MP, L4, RR, NP, etc... ?

Sorry about that. Hunter Allen's and Andy Coggan's book (Training and Racing with a Power Meter) has a glossary with some of these definitions, although interestingly there isn't an acronym glossary. That's what you need. Anyway, here you go (including a couple of others that are commonly used in these threads).
FT and FTP - Functional Threshold Power = 60min MMP
MP and MMP - Mean Maximal Power = maximum average power for a given duration
L4 - Level 4 from Andy Coggan's training schema (L1-L7)
RR - Road Race
NP - Normalized Power
AP - Average Power
PM - Power Meter
LT - Lactate Threshold
VO2MAX - maximum rate of oxygen uptake during exercise
CP - Critical Power (and sometimes CyclingPeaks - look at the context)
AWC - Anaerobic Work Capacity
IF - Intensity Factor
TSS - Training Stress Score
[and many more ...]

RapDaddyo said:

I have actually come around to a three-part performance testing process (MP at three durations from 3-30 mins)...

It's based on the Critical Power Model. The good thing is that it does not require a full hour MP ride and, in fact, a 20-min MP ride is long enough. This approach is described by Andy in his (and Hunter's) book (FTP estimation method #5, p. 46). What Andy doesn't do (at least on p. 46) is to detail the value of having the entire MP/duration curve rather than simply one point (FTP). What he does do is to discuss the Critical Power Model extensively beginning on p. 47. IMO, this sidebar is worth the price of the book.

I'm right in the middle of reading Hunter & Andy's book and loving it! I will certainly use that testing protocol once I bring the volume down a bit.

I've also found this forum really useful for getting the practical side of all the theory.

Thanks to all contributors!

padawan said:

I'm right in the middle of reading Hunter & Andy's book and loving it!

You won't need much more than that.