Hi, I've only had my PT for 6 weeks and I still feeling my way around power training. Nearly all of my rides are done indoors Today on a fairly generic endurance solo ride on the road (what I'd call a tempo ride by RPE) my best 60' NP was 8 watts above my FTP as tested indoors. So my question is:does this figure from a non-max effort suggest that my FTP is set too low? The ride is fairly undulating, resulting in a VI of 1.08. Given that situation, am I correct in assuming that NP would be a better estimate of actual power than average for the hour?
8W isn't much. It shouldn't affect your high-intensity efforts much. Your 60' NP is probably the best estimate of your max power under similar circumstances (highly variable power), but your constant power test probably better reflects your constant power FTP. I always use constant power performance test rides because I know they are rock solid (at either constant power or variable power) for the durations. When I have a highly variable power ride, I'm never absolutely sure I can replicate the NP in a constant power ride.
Thanks -- the issue of variablity was what was raising questions in my mind. The workouts done indoors using the tested FTP certainly "feel" like the right intensity.
The obvious solution is to conduct another test. But that might have to wait until the end of cross season (and several weeks for the bumps and bruises I pick up along the way to heal).
Thanks -- the issue of variablity was what was raising questions in my mind. The workouts done indoors using the tested FTP certainly "feel" like the right intensity.
The obvious solution is to conduct another test. But that might have to wait until the end of cross season (and several weeks for the bumps and bruises I pick up along the way to heal).
Note the following post by Andy Coggan wrt to estimating FTP:
Thanks for the responses. I never would have found those topica posts; I'm always struggling to navigate that system.
Clearly estimating FTP from a ride file is not the way to go, but I wonder what conclusions can be drawn from "a meat and potatoes" L3/4 ride on rolling terrain? IfI interpreted RD's post correctly, the high variablilty of the ride makes conclusions about power about difficult to draw. Would this be an instance where HR remains a useful metric since its lag in response "smooths" the effort?
This is still nothing like a test. Try a 20 minute L4 interval test, take 95% for your FT.
Add a 5-8 min all out test to that and you'll have enough data to plug into Monod Critical Power model to provide a really good estimate of FTP or CP60. That's a good start. After a while you'll work out a method that suits you best.
If I interpreted RD's post correctly, the high variablilty of the ride makes conclusions about power about difficult to draw.
Makes conclusions about a constant power effort risky (for some), but perfectly valid for variable power efforts.
ChristianSherid said:
Would this be an instance where HR remains a useful metric since its lag in response "smooths" the effort?
For way too many reasons to enumerate, the short answer is no. Attached is an actual ride file of a 2hr hill climb, NP vs. HR. Note miles 4-6 and 8-15. Power was all over the map but HR was within 1-2bpm.
Thanks for the replies (especially RD for the graph -- really drives home the point that HR doesn't correlate with actual power output). As always, I learn a lot on this forum.
I was trying to see if there is a way to adjust FTP in between formal tests since I don't have a taper/test week scheduled until December and I don't fully trust my RPE to guide me. As with so many new pm users, I've discovered that using HR/RPE to guide my workouts left me woefully undertrained.
I was trying to see if there is a way to adjust FTP in between formal tests since I don't have a taper/test week scheduled until December and I don't fully trust my RPE to guide me.
It's really not necessary to nail down FTP with a formal test for training purposes. If, for example, 20min L4 intervals are a regular part of your training regimen, you can jusst go by how you feel in the 2nd 20min effort. If you finish it strongly and feel that you could have ridden it harder, then bump it up a bit the next time on the 2nd effort. If that goes well, then bump it up for both efforts. FTP estimates are sort of self-correcting because if you do your high-intensity efforts as a function of FTP you will quickly figure out if FTP is over- or under-estimated.
It's really not necessary to nail down FTP with a formal test for training purposes. If, for example, 20min L4 intervals are a regular part of your training regimen, you can jusst go by how you feel in the 2nd 20min effort. If you finish it strongly and feel that you could have ridden it harder, then bump it up a bit the next time on the 2nd effort. If that goes well, then bump it up for both efforts. FTP estimates are sort of self-correcting because if you do your high-intensity efforts as a function of FTP you will quickly figure out if FTP is over- or under-estimated.
Agree - training "zones" or "levels" are descriptive only and contiguous, so being out by a few % ain't a big deal. But it does help to be consistent in your testing.
Testing is good training in itself. Doing L4s like RD mentions is a solid way to know your FTP, as are the monod CP tests. They are good workouts in themselves, so why not schedule them as part of your training?
RD - I know you've no doubt answered this one before - but since you ride these L4s at a sub-maximal % of 20min MMP, then how do you know if it's "enough"?
It's really not necessary to nail down FTP with a formal test for training purposes. If, for example, 20min L4 intervals are a regular part of your training regimen, you can jusst go by how you feel in the 2nd 20min effort. If you finish it strongly and feel that you could have ridden it harder, then bump it up a bit the next time on the 2nd effort. If that goes well, then bump it up for both efforts. FTP estimates are sort of self-correcting because if you do your high-intensity efforts as a function of FTP you will quickly figure out if FTP is over- or under-estimated.
Provided one is doing those 20 min L4 intervals, then this method is agreeable to me, and in fact, what I do. When the second one becomes relatively easy (or easier) to finish, then I know it is time to bump up the wattage. Doing a one-hour TT over the weekend invariably confirms the increase within 1-2 watts without failure so far for me.
RD - I know you've no doubt answered this one before - but since you ride these L4s at a sub-maximal % of 20min MMP, then how do you know if it's "enough"?
I hate it when I find out that it's not. Usually, it happens on a club ride when a lightweight 20-something takes off on a long climb. I usually go after him and when I download my ride file I have a new MMP for a duration (or a couple of durations). Then, I say, "Oh, [censored], I have to bump my target power." I hate it when that happens. Oh, well, serves me right for chasing the guy down.😄
I hate it when I find out that it's not. Usually, it happens on a club ride when a lightweight 20-something takes off on a long climb. I usually go after him and when I download my ride file I have a new MMP for a duration (or a couple of durations). Then, I say, "Oh, [censored], I have to bump my target power." I hate it when that happens. Oh, well, serves me right for chasing the guy down.😄
There's nothing like motivation to bump up your MMP curve😉
I do include 2/3x 20' every week, but since I was doing them as SST, I figured they weren't a good indication of threshold. I'll have to bump up the intensity to right to current FTP and see what that tells me.
Speaking of motivation -- the pm itself is great motivation for me. I can't recall the last time I actually looked forward to getting on the trainer. I'm sure the honeymoon period will pass, but I'm enjoying it for now.
Speaking of motivation -- the pm itself is great motivation for me. I can't recall the last time I actually looked forward to getting on the trainer. I'm sure the honeymoon period will pass, but I'm enjoying it for now.
It doesn't have to. I'm getting on my trainer in ~5 hours for a couple of 20min L4s and I can't wait (and I have ~8400 minutes of L4 efforts year-to-date).😉
I do include 2/3x 20' every week, but since I was doing them as SST, I figured they weren't a good indication of threshold. I'll have to bump up the intensity to right to current FTP and see what that tells me.
Speaking of motivation -- the pm itself is great motivation for me. I can't recall the last time I actually looked forward to getting on the trainer. I'm sure the honeymoon period will pass, but I'm enjoying it for now.
You know what's funny is that for me it has been entirely the opposite. Forget honeymoon period, I saw the trainer as simply the lesser of two evils (the greater one being cold/wind/rain/traffic/etc). I dreaded getting on the bloody thing at some wee hour (5am) in the morning for intervals.
Surprise, surprise - after some rides, getting acclimated, finding a good cooling set-up, and obtaining the right mindset - that has changed. Seeing the direct benefit of my trainer rides outdoors, in the form of higher FTP, has completely reinforced that. I now think my trainer rides are absolutely invaluable and some of the very best use of my training time.
I do include 2/3x 20' every week, but since I was doing them as SST, I figured they weren't a good indication of threshold. I'll have to bump up the intensity to right to current FTP and see what that tells me.
Well if you're primarily doing SST at this stage then the occasional L4 set won't hurt your training. Then you'll know if you're really doing SST😉
