Front LEDs

Dave Larrington said:

"Some cyclists like to fit additional lamps and reflectors. This is perfectly legal so long as
they are the correct colour and in an appropriate position. Optional lamps and reflectors do not
generally have to comply with standards, but it's illegal to use some designs of lamp or reflector
that are normally used to indicate another type of vehicle or hazard."

Aha, that explains where I've been going wrong in my interpretation of the RVLR [1]. I've been
looking at the table in Schedule 2 part 1, for obligatory lamps. But of course anything beyond the
legal minimum is optional, so doesn't need to meet the requirements laid out in that table.

Thanks for pointing that out.

[1] hmso.gov.ukUksi 19891796 en 1.htmOpen ↗

--
Danny Colyer (the UK company has been laughed out of my reply address)
speedy5.freeserve.co.ukdannyOpen ↗ "He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine

"Tony Raven" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

If you have ABS get out there somewhere quiet and try it out. There have

been

Quoted message said:

a few accidents where the vibration of the brake pedal caused people to

take

Quoted message said:

their foot off it in surprise.

Sound advice.

My current car is the first I've had with ABS so I had to play with it when new 🙂 The ABS is more
brutal than I'd expected which was a high frequency release and re-application, in practice its more
like someone tapping the brake pedal quite hard with a hammer and has a correspondingly clunky feel,
it makes you think something has broken!

I suppose I'll now lose the skill of cadence braking developed a long time ago during Canadian
winters :-(

Pete

"Tony Raven" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

If you have ABS get out there somewhere quiet and try it out. There have

been

Quoted message said:

a few accidents where the vibration of the brake pedal caused people to

take

Quoted message said:

their foot off it in surprise.

Sound advice.

My current car is the first I've had with ABS so I had to play with it when new 🙂 The ABS is more
brutal than I'd expected which was a high frequency release and re-application, in practice its more
like someone tapping the brake pedal quite hard with a hammer and has a correspondingly clunky feel,
it makes you think something has broken!

I suppose I'll now lose the skill of cadence braking developed a long time ago during Canadian
winters :-(

Pete

Quoted message said:

What's all this talk about lights on bikes? In Milton Keynes I'd be surprised if more than 10% of
cyclists have any working lights, front or rear, after dark.

Ah, so you can see 'unlit' cyclists can you? In that case I wonder why it is that fitting £150 of
high power halogen lighting to my bike seems to make me invisible to many drivers!

Go on, give your self a surprise and actually count them! You will probabaly find the majority
actually do have lights! Certainly there are more cyclists who use lights then there are drivers who
keep to the speed limits!

You are probably taking more notice of those who are 'breaking the rules', much as people take
little notice of well behaved football fans. Interestingly TRL research shows that 'irresponsible'
cyclists also signal 'hazard' to the driver so they take much more care. In comparison the more law
abiding a cyclists is the less attention a driver pays to them and they more at risk they are from
careless driving.

TRl report 549 'Drivers perceptions of cyclists' also shows that drivers prefer to encounter
'serious' cyclists - these are those who wear flourescent clothing, helmets and so on as they
believe such cyclists are more predictable. The interesting thing is drivers take advantage of this
predictability by being willing to overtake them closer and at a higher speed then the unhelmeted,
unlit 'unpredictable' cyclists!

Whatever the value of various forms of lighting it needs to be remembered that only 10% of
cycle/vehicle collisions occur at night.

cyclists hit by drivers were actually correctly lit!

The biggest problem is probabaly those motorists who overdrive their headlights. Rather then
adapting their speed to the conditions so that they can stop in the distance they can actually see
to be clear many motorists drive much faster then this in the hope they will spot the lights of
another vehicle. Some idiots even drive at high speed on country lanes on the assumption that they
will see the oncoming headlights of another vehicle, ignoring the fact that they may well miss the
light of an oncoming cyclist and a pedestrian in the road probabaly wont have any lights at all...

Non of the above shows that cyclists don't need lights though, especially front lights as without
a front light a driver may find it hard to spot a cyclist approaching a junction - headlights are
not much use in such situations. (Even so some drivers will still pull out regardless of how well
it you are).

Quoted message said:

What's all this talk about lights on bikes? In Milton Keynes I'd be surprised if more than 10% of
cyclists have any working lights, front or rear, after dark.

Ah, so you can see 'unlit' cyclists can you? In that case I wonder why it is that fitting £150 of
high power halogen lighting to my bike seems to make me invisible to many drivers!

Go on, give your self a surprise and actually count them! You will probabaly find the majority
actually do have lights! Certainly there are more cyclists who use lights then there are drivers who
keep to the speed limits!

You are probably taking more notice of those who are 'breaking the rules', much as people take
little notice of well behaved football fans. Interestingly TRL research shows that 'irresponsible'
cyclists also signal 'hazard' to the driver so they take much more care. In comparison the more law
abiding a cyclists is the less attention a driver pays to them and they more at risk they are from
careless driving.

TRl report 549 'Drivers perceptions of cyclists' also shows that drivers prefer to encounter
'serious' cyclists - these are those who wear flourescent clothing, helmets and so on as they
believe such cyclists are more predictable. The interesting thing is drivers take advantage of this
predictability by being willing to overtake them closer and at a higher speed then the unhelmeted,
unlit 'unpredictable' cyclists!

Whatever the value of various forms of lighting it needs to be remembered that only 10% of
cycle/vehicle collisions occur at night.

cyclists hit by drivers were actually correctly lit!

The biggest problem is probabaly those motorists who overdrive their headlights. Rather then
adapting their speed to the conditions so that they can stop in the distance they can actually see
to be clear many motorists drive much faster then this in the hope they will spot the lights of
another vehicle. Some idiots even drive at high speed on country lanes on the assumption that they
will see the oncoming headlights of another vehicle, ignoring the fact that they may well miss the
light of an oncoming cyclist and a pedestrian in the road probabaly wont have any lights at all...

Non of the above shows that cyclists don't need lights though, especially front lights as without
a front light a driver may find it hard to spot a cyclist approaching a junction - headlights are
not much use in such situations. (Even so some drivers will still pull out regardless of how well
it you are).

Quoted message said:

What's all this talk about lights on bikes? In Milton Keynes I'd be surprised if more than 10% of
cyclists have any working lights, front or rear, after dark.

Ah, so you can see 'unlit' cyclists can you? In that case I wonder why it is that fitting £150 of
high power halogen lighting to my bike seems to make me invisible to many drivers!

Go on, give your self a surprise and actually count them! You will probabaly find the majority
actually do have lights! Certainly there are more cyclists who use lights then there are drivers who
keep to the speed limits!

You are probably taking more notice of those who are 'breaking the rules', much as people take
little notice of well behaved football fans. Interestingly TRL research shows that 'irresponsible'
cyclists also signal 'hazard' to the driver so they take much more care. In comparison the more law
abiding a cyclists is the less attention a driver pays to them and they more at risk they are from
careless driving.

TRl report 549 'Drivers perceptions of cyclists' also shows that drivers prefer to encounter
'serious' cyclists - these are those who wear flourescent clothing, helmets and so on as they
believe such cyclists are more predictable. The interesting thing is drivers take advantage of this
predictability by being willing to overtake them closer and at a higher speed then the unhelmeted,
unlit 'unpredictable' cyclists!

Whatever the value of various forms of lighting it needs to be remembered that only 10% of
cycle/vehicle collisions occur at night.

cyclists hit by drivers were actually correctly lit!

The biggest problem is probabaly those motorists who overdrive their headlights. Rather then
adapting their speed to the conditions so that they can stop in the distance they can actually see
to be clear many motorists drive much faster then this in the hope they will spot the lights of
another vehicle. Some idiots even drive at high speed on country lanes on the assumption that they
will see the oncoming headlights of another vehicle, ignoring the fact that they may well miss the
light of an oncoming cyclist and a pedestrian in the road probabaly wont have any lights at all...

Non of the above shows that cyclists don't need lights though, especially front lights as without
a front light a driver may find it hard to spot a cyclist approaching a junction - headlights are
not much use in such situations. (Even so some drivers will still pull out regardless of how well
it you are).

Tony Raven said:

IIRC correctly Jackie Stewart used to teach locking all four wheels up in a straight line and then
release the pedal pressure if needed to get the wheels rolling and steer round something as the
most effective way of stopping/avoiding.

That's right. When I did the skid training course at Brands Hatch the instructor would get you to
aim at a pile of tyres then jam on the brakes. With all 4 wheels locked you would then turn the
steering wheel with absolutely no effect on the car's heading. With the steering still on and the
car still sliding in a straight line you would release the brake at the last moment and the car
would immediately stop skidding and steer round the tyres.

--
Dave...

Tony Raven said:

IIRC correctly Jackie Stewart used to teach locking all four wheels up in a straight line and then
release the pedal pressure if needed to get the wheels rolling and steer round something as the
most effective way of stopping/avoiding.

That's right. When I did the skid training course at Brands Hatch the instructor would get you to
aim at a pile of tyres then jam on the brakes. With all 4 wheels locked you would then turn the
steering wheel with absolutely no effect on the car's heading. With the steering still on and the
car still sliding in a straight line you would release the brake at the last moment and the car
would immediately stop skidding and steer round the tyres.

--
Dave...

Tony Raven said:

If you have ABS get out there somewhere quiet and try it out. There have been a few accidents where
the vibration of the brake pedal caused people to take their foot off it in surprise.

Wouldn't it be a good idea to have an introduction to ABS as part of the driving test? Or do they
nowadays? And if they do where could I get such an introduction?

Tim

Tony Raven said:

If you have ABS get out there somewhere quiet and try it out. There have been a few accidents where
the vibration of the brake pedal caused people to take their foot off it in surprise.

Wouldn't it be a good idea to have an introduction to ABS as part of the driving test? Or do they
nowadays? And if they do where could I get such an introduction?

Tim

Tony Raven said:

IIRC correctly Jackie Stewart used to teach locking all four wheels up in a straight line and then
release the pedal pressure if needed to get the wheels rolling and steer round something as the
most effective way of stopping/avoiding.

That's right. When I did the skid training course at Brands Hatch the instructor would get you to
aim at a pile of tyres then jam on the brakes. With all 4 wheels locked you would then turn the
steering wheel with absolutely no effect on the car's heading. With the steering still on and the
car still sliding in a straight line you would release the brake at the last moment and the car
would immediately stop skidding and steer round the tyres.

--
Dave...

Tony Raven said:

If you have ABS get out there somewhere quiet and try it out. There have been a few accidents where
the vibration of the brake pedal caused people to take their foot off it in surprise.

Wouldn't it be a good idea to have an introduction to ABS as part of the driving test? Or do they
nowadays? And if they do where could I get such an introduction?

Tim

In article said:

Tony Raven said:

If you have ABS get out there somewhere quiet and try it out. There have been a few accidents
where the vibration of the brake pedal caused people to take their foot off it in surprise.

Wouldn't it be a good idea to have an introduction to ABS as part of the driving test? Or do they
nowadays? And if they do where could I get such an introduction?

I assume they still have an emergency stop as part of the test, so it would depend on whether the
car has ABS. Doing it in a school car, it probably does. Doing it in a cheap old car, it won't. In
any case, it won't help those of us who learnt to drive when ABS was only an expensive option on
high end new cars. (I tried mine in a car park last night, after reading Tony's post.)

In article said:

Tony Raven said:

If you have ABS get out there somewhere quiet and try it out. There have been a few accidents
where the vibration of the brake pedal caused people to take their foot off it in surprise.

Wouldn't it be a good idea to have an introduction to ABS as part of the driving test? Or do they
nowadays? And if they do where could I get such an introduction?

I assume they still have an emergency stop as part of the test, so it would depend on whether the
car has ABS. Doing it in a school car, it probably does. Doing it in a cheap old car, it won't. In
any case, it won't help those of us who learnt to drive when ABS was only an expensive option on
high end new cars. (I tried mine in a car park last night, after reading Tony's post.)

In article said:

Tony Raven said:

If you have ABS get out there somewhere quiet and try it out. There have been a few accidents
where the vibration of the brake pedal caused people to take their foot off it in surprise.

Wouldn't it be a good idea to have an introduction to ABS as part of the driving test? Or do they
nowadays? And if they do where could I get such an introduction?

I assume they still have an emergency stop as part of the test, so it would depend on whether the
car has ABS. Doing it in a school car, it probably does. Doing it in a cheap old car, it won't. In
any case, it won't help those of us who learnt to drive when ABS was only an expensive option on
high end new cars. (I tried mine in a car park last night, after reading Tony's post.)

Chris Malcolm <[email hidden]> wrote ...

Quoted message said:

Tony Raven said:

Danny Colyer said:

My understanding (derived from something read in a cycling mag several years ago, IIRC) was
that the British Standards Institute specified maximum power outputs of 2.4W for a front light
and 0.6W for a rear light.

The silliness of the British Bicycle Lighting Standards, aka the Ever Unready Market Protection
Rules, are mitigated by the following exception:

"Wherever a British Standard (BS) is referred to, other equivalent standards from EC countries are
now also permitted, but only if they provide an equivalent level of safety etc. It's not exactly
clear which do."

It would be difficult to argue that the current BS was not equivalent to the older version referred
to by the RVLR, so lights like the Cateye AU100BS should be OK. Dutch and German standards should
be OK too.

I recall seeing at some time that the (old) BS refers to another BS listing approved bulbs, the most
powerful of which was a 6V3W halogen. The 2.4W figure is merely the conventional power split used on
a German standard 3W dynamo - at one time Sanyo sold a 3.8W dynamo with lamps for a 3W/0.8W split.

Andrew

(apologies to Richard for replying off-list by mistake)