Front LEDs

"Zog The Undeniable" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Peter B said:

From a drivers POV in urban conditions good reflective adornments make

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

rear lamp redundant

I don't know - dipped beams don't illuminate reflective gear very well, and I know a lot of people
(e.g. my wife and my father-in-law) who rarely use main beam because it's too much hassle to keep
turning it off and on!

Yep, I've been paying more attention and think I was wrong in my statement. Good rear lights are
useful no matter what other reflective aids are used and as you point out they may not be picked up
consistently by headlights.

Pete

Dave Larrington said:

Old German Customs prevented manufacturers from fitting lights with more oomph than 6V/3W, hence
that became the de facto standard. AFAIK fitting more powerful lights was not illegal in the UK,

My understanding (derived from something read in a cycling mag several years ago, IIRC) was that the
British Standards Institute specified maximum power outputs of 2.4W for a front light and 0.6W for a
rear light.

I haven't actually read the BSI specifications (and a search of the BSI website tells me that
it would cost 74 quid to buy a copy), so I can't confirm that. And they've been updated since
then anyway.

I *have* read the Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations, which specify that one must use BS approved
lights. Whether one can have additional, non-BS-approved, lights is open to interpretation. My
interpretation is that you can't, not mounted to the bike anyway.

So *if* British Standards specified a maximum power of 2.4W, and *if* the RVLR specify that all
lights must be BS approved, that would mean that a front light more powerful than 2.4W attached to
the cycle would be illegal on the public highway.

--
Danny Colyer (the UK company has been laughed out of my reply address)
speedy5.freeserve.co.ukdannyOpen ↗ "He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine

Dave Larrington said:

Old German Customs prevented manufacturers from fitting lights with more oomph than 6V/3W, hence
that became the de facto standard. AFAIK fitting more powerful lights was not illegal in the UK,

My understanding (derived from something read in a cycling mag several years ago, IIRC) was that the
British Standards Institute specified maximum power outputs of 2.4W for a front light and 0.6W for a
rear light.

I haven't actually read the BSI specifications (and a search of the BSI website tells me that
it would cost 74 quid to buy a copy), so I can't confirm that. And they've been updated since
then anyway.

I *have* read the Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations, which specify that one must use BS approved
lights. Whether one can have additional, non-BS-approved, lights is open to interpretation. My
interpretation is that you can't, not mounted to the bike anyway.

So *if* British Standards specified a maximum power of 2.4W, and *if* the RVLR specify that all
lights must be BS approved, that would mean that a front light more powerful than 2.4W attached to
the cycle would be illegal on the public highway.

--
Danny Colyer (the UK company has been laughed out of my reply address)
speedy5.freeserve.co.ukdannyOpen ↗ "He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine

Just zis Guy said:

"Ambrose Nankivell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> [ABS] Doesn't help straight line stopping distance, though.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Mr Bosch is far better at cadence braking than I am.

Quoted message said:

Oops. I meant it doesn't help it much. Don't have figures or inclination to find them to back it
up, so I won't press the point. I imagine it's unlikely that the OP's ABS fired, though.

Sure. Lots of people believe ABS allows them to stop in a shorter distance on a slippery road, and
they are indeed wrong.

Including me, how does that work then?

--
Andy Morris

AndyAtJinkasDotFreeserve.Co.UK

Love this: Put an end to Outlook Express's messy quotes
home.in.tum.deoe quotefixOpen ↗

Danny Colyer said:

My understanding (derived from something read in a cycling mag several years ago, IIRC) was that
the British Standards Institute specified maximum power outputs of 2.4W for a front light and 0.6W
for a rear light.

I haven't actually read the BSI specifications (and a search of the BSI website tells me that
it would cost 74 quid to buy a copy), so I can't confirm that. And they've been updated since
then anyway.

I *have* read the Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations, which specify that one must use BS approved
lights. Whether one can have additional, non-BS-approved, lights is open to interpretation. My
interpretation is that you can't, not mounted to the bike anyway.

So *if* British Standards specified a maximum power of 2.4W, and *if* the RVLR specify that all
lights must be BS approved, that would mean that a front light more powerful than 2.4W attached to
the cycle would be illegal on the public highway.

Its detailed at ctc.org.ukstandards.aspxOpen ↗

Tony

Just zis Guy said:

"Ambrose Nankivell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> [ABS] Doesn't help straight line stopping distance, though.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Mr Bosch is far better at cadence braking than I am.

Quoted message said:

Oops. I meant it doesn't help it much. Don't have figures or inclination to find them to back it
up, so I won't press the point. I imagine it's unlikely that the OP's ABS fired, though.

Sure. Lots of people believe ABS allows them to stop in a shorter distance on a slippery road, and
they are indeed wrong.

Including me, how does that work then?

--
Andy Morris

AndyAtJinkasDotFreeserve.Co.UK

Love this: Put an end to Outlook Express's messy quotes
home.in.tum.deoe quotefixOpen ↗

Danny Colyer said:

My understanding (derived from something read in a cycling mag several years ago, IIRC) was that
the British Standards Institute specified maximum power outputs of 2.4W for a front light and 0.6W
for a rear light.

I haven't actually read the BSI specifications (and a search of the BSI website tells me that
it would cost 74 quid to buy a copy), so I can't confirm that. And they've been updated since
then anyway.

I *have* read the Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations, which specify that one must use BS approved
lights. Whether one can have additional, non-BS-approved, lights is open to interpretation. My
interpretation is that you can't, not mounted to the bike anyway.

So *if* British Standards specified a maximum power of 2.4W, and *if* the RVLR specify that all
lights must be BS approved, that would mean that a front light more powerful than 2.4W attached to
the cycle would be illegal on the public highway.

Its detailed at ctc.org.ukstandards.aspxOpen ↗

Tony

"AndyMorris" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:bqglgi$6g2$3 @newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk:

Quoted message said:

Including me, how does that work then?

--
Andy Morris

AndyAtJinkasDotFreeserve.Co.UK

Isn't ABS supposed to make the car more able to steer round obstructions / peds, etc. when braking
heavily in slippery conditions? May have *some* beneficial effect on total stopping distance, but I
do think it's seem as a 'magic shield' by some cagers.

My Pug 405 has ABS, but the only times it has fired was in sub-10mph parking manoevres on a carpet
of wet leaves on a hilly road. Feels like someone's drilling into the soles of your shoes.

--
Chris Bardell [Remove favourite mode of transport from email address]

"AndyMorris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Re ABS braking systems:

Quoted message said:

Including me, how does that work then?

Put simply a sensing system detects when a wheel is about to lock up whilst the vehicle is moving
and releases the brakes defeating the operators pedal force momentarily.

Braking efficiency isn't enhanced, it's still a product of the pads/shoes friction on the discs and
hubs along with variables such as road surface etc.

What it does allow one to do is apply full force to the pedal without worrying about lock-up.
Imagine being able to jam your rear bike brake on with full force and not have to worry about the
wheel locking up and sliding all over the shop. In short in a straight line it allows the poorly
skilled to get away with clumsy brake application, that's all, but as previously stated it allows
better control for all when both braking and steering in an emergency situation.

IIRC by 2006 all cars sold in the UK must have abs fitted as standard.

BTW one of the first cars available with ABS was the Jensen Interceptor FF (Ferguson Formula 4WD)
fitted with Dunlop Maxarret brakes, similar to those on aircraft, in the 70's.

Pete

Tony Raven said:

Its detailed at ctc.org.ukstandards.aspxOpen ↗

which goes on to say:

"Some cyclists like to fit additional lamps and reflectors. This is perfectly legal so long as they
are the correct colour and in an appropriate position. Optional lamps and reflectors do not
generally have to comply with standards, but it's illegal to use some designs of lamp or reflector
that are normally used to indicate another type of vehicle or hazard."

--

Dave Larrington - legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uklegslarry.beerdrinkers.co.ukOpen ↗
===========================================================
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
bhpc.org.ukbhpc.org.ukOpen ↗
===========================================================

"AndyMorris" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:bqglgi$6g2$3 @newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk:

Quoted message said:

Including me, how does that work then?

--
Andy Morris

AndyAtJinkasDotFreeserve.Co.UK

Isn't ABS supposed to make the car more able to steer round obstructions / peds, etc. when braking
heavily in slippery conditions? May have *some* beneficial effect on total stopping distance, but I
do think it's seem as a 'magic shield' by some cagers.

My Pug 405 has ABS, but the only times it has fired was in sub-10mph parking manoevres on a carpet
of wet leaves on a hilly road. Feels like someone's drilling into the soles of your shoes.

--
Chris Bardell [Remove favourite mode of transport from email address]

"AndyMorris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Re ABS braking systems:

Quoted message said:

Including me, how does that work then?

Put simply a sensing system detects when a wheel is about to lock up whilst the vehicle is moving
and releases the brakes defeating the operators pedal force momentarily.

Braking efficiency isn't enhanced, it's still a product of the pads/shoes friction on the discs and
hubs along with variables such as road surface etc.

What it does allow one to do is apply full force to the pedal without worrying about lock-up.
Imagine being able to jam your rear bike brake on with full force and not have to worry about the
wheel locking up and sliding all over the shop. In short in a straight line it allows the poorly
skilled to get away with clumsy brake application, that's all, but as previously stated it allows
better control for all when both braking and steering in an emergency situation.

IIRC by 2006 all cars sold in the UK must have abs fitted as standard.

BTW one of the first cars available with ABS was the Jensen Interceptor FF (Ferguson Formula 4WD)
fitted with Dunlop Maxarret brakes, similar to those on aircraft, in the 70's.

Pete

Tony Raven said:

Its detailed at ctc.org.ukstandards.aspxOpen ↗

which goes on to say:

"Some cyclists like to fit additional lamps and reflectors. This is perfectly legal so long as they
are the correct colour and in an appropriate position. Optional lamps and reflectors do not
generally have to comply with standards, but it's illegal to use some designs of lamp or reflector
that are normally used to indicate another type of vehicle or hazard."

--

Dave Larrington - legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uklegslarry.beerdrinkers.co.ukOpen ↗
===========================================================
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
bhpc.org.ukbhpc.org.ukOpen ↗
===========================================================

Tony Raven said:

Its detailed at ctc.org.ukstandards.aspxOpen ↗

Bum. I followed the link hoping to find details of BS requirements, but only found details of the
RVLR, which I've already read :-(

--
Danny Colyer (the UK company has been laughed out of my reply address)
speedy5.freeserve.co.ukdannyOpen ↗ "He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine

Tony Raven said:

Danny Colyer said:

My understanding (derived from something read in a cycling mag several years ago, IIRC) was that
the British Standards Institute specified maximum power outputs of 2.4W for a front light and
0.6W for a rear light.

I haven't actually read the BSI specifications (and a search of the BSI website tells me that it
would cost 74 quid to buy a copy), so I can't confirm that. And they've been updated since then
anyway.

I *have* read the Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations, which specify that one must use BS approved
lights. Whether one can have additional, non-BS-approved, lights is open to interpretation. My
interpretation is that you can't, not mounted to the bike anyway.

So *if* British Standards specified a maximum power of 2.4W, and *if* the RVLR specify that all
lights must be BS approved, that would mean that a front light more powerful than 2.4W attached
to the cycle would be illegal on the public highway.

It's totally daft to specify the power of a light in terms of the electrical power supplied to an
unspecified but taken-for-granted specific lamp technology, unless what you're really trying to do
is to stop foreign manufacturers from taking unfair advantage of modern technology against our
National Bicycle Lamp Purveyor. How could such a thing happen? Get a bunch of arts-educated civil
servants and lawyers into a committe to decide on the Standard, and they'll quickly realise they
need an expert for the incomprehensible technical details, so they'll invite someone in from "the
industry".

Quoted message said:

Its detailed at ctc.org.ukstandards.aspxOpen ↗

The silliness of the British Bicycle Lighting Standards, aka the Ever Unready Market Protection
Rules, are mitigated by the following exception:

"Wherever a British Standard (BS) is referred to, other equivalent standards from EC countries are
now also permitted, but only if they provide an equivalent level of safety etc. It's not exactly
clear which do."
--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205 IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's
Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK ["]http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Tony Raven said:

Its detailed at ctc.org.ukstandards.aspxOpen ↗

Bum. I followed the link hoping to find details of BS requirements, but only found details of the
RVLR, which I've already read :-(

--
Danny Colyer (the UK company has been laughed out of my reply address)
speedy5.freeserve.co.ukdannyOpen ↗ "He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine

Tony Raven said:

Danny Colyer said:

My understanding (derived from something read in a cycling mag several years ago, IIRC) was that
the British Standards Institute specified maximum power outputs of 2.4W for a front light and
0.6W for a rear light.

I haven't actually read the BSI specifications (and a search of the BSI website tells me that it
would cost 74 quid to buy a copy), so I can't confirm that. And they've been updated since then
anyway.

I *have* read the Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations, which specify that one must use BS approved
lights. Whether one can have additional, non-BS-approved, lights is open to interpretation. My
interpretation is that you can't, not mounted to the bike anyway.

So *if* British Standards specified a maximum power of 2.4W, and *if* the RVLR specify that all
lights must be BS approved, that would mean that a front light more powerful than 2.4W attached
to the cycle would be illegal on the public highway.

It's totally daft to specify the power of a light in terms of the electrical power supplied to an
unspecified but taken-for-granted specific lamp technology, unless what you're really trying to do
is to stop foreign manufacturers from taking unfair advantage of modern technology against our
National Bicycle Lamp Purveyor. How could such a thing happen? Get a bunch of arts-educated civil
servants and lawyers into a committe to decide on the Standard, and they'll quickly realise they
need an expert for the incomprehensible technical details, so they'll invite someone in from "the
industry".

Quoted message said:

Its detailed at ctc.org.ukstandards.aspxOpen ↗

The silliness of the British Bicycle Lighting Standards, aka the Ever Unready Market Protection
Rules, are mitigated by the following exception:

"Wherever a British Standard (BS) is referred to, other equivalent standards from EC countries are
now also permitted, but only if they provide an equivalent level of safety etc. It's not exactly
clear which do."
--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205 IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's
Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK ["]http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Peter B said:

"AndyMorris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Re ABS braking systems:

Quoted message said:

Including me, how does that work then?

Put simply a sensing system detects when a wheel is about to lock up whilst the vehicle is moving
and releases the brakes defeating the operators pedal force momentarily.

Braking efficiency isn't enhanced, it's still a product of the pads/shoes friction on the discs
and hubs along with variables such as road surface etc.

IIRC correctly Jackie Stewart used to teach locking all four wheels up in a straight line and then
release the pedal pressure if needed to get the wheels rolling and steer round something as the most
effective way of stopping/avoiding. ABS just ensures that less skilled folk don't lock the wheels so
they retain steering control. Before lots of people would slide straight into something while
frantically twiddling the steering wheel to no effect because the wheels were locked up.

If you have ABS get out there somewhere quiet and try it out. There have been a few accidents where
the vibration of the brake pedal caused people to take their foot off it in surprise.

Tony

Peter B said:

"AndyMorris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Re ABS braking systems:

Quoted message said:

Including me, how does that work then?

Put simply a sensing system detects when a wheel is about to lock up whilst the vehicle is moving
and releases the brakes defeating the operators pedal force momentarily.

Braking efficiency isn't enhanced, it's still a product of the pads/shoes friction on the discs
and hubs along with variables such as road surface etc.

IIRC correctly Jackie Stewart used to teach locking all four wheels up in a straight line and then
release the pedal pressure if needed to get the wheels rolling and steer round something as the most
effective way of stopping/avoiding. ABS just ensures that less skilled folk don't lock the wheels so
they retain steering control. Before lots of people would slide straight into something while
frantically twiddling the steering wheel to no effect because the wheels were locked up.

If you have ABS get out there somewhere quiet and try it out. There have been a few accidents where
the vibration of the brake pedal caused people to take their foot off it in surprise.

Tony

Dave Larrington said:

"Some cyclists like to fit additional lamps and reflectors. This is perfectly legal so long as
they are the correct colour and in an appropriate position. Optional lamps and reflectors do not
generally have to comply with standards, but it's illegal to use some designs of lamp or reflector
that are normally used to indicate another type of vehicle or hazard."

Aha, that explains where I've been going wrong in my interpretation of the RVLR [1]. I've been
looking at the table in Schedule 2 part 1, for obligatory lamps. But of course anything beyond the
legal minimum is optional, so doesn't need to meet the requirements laid out in that table.

Thanks for pointing that out.

[1] hmso.gov.ukUksi 19891796 en 1.htmOpen ↗

--
Danny Colyer (the UK company has been laughed out of my reply address)
speedy5.freeserve.co.ukdannyOpen ↗ "He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine