FREEWHEELS .....

"Jerry C." <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I need a freewheel, 13-28 or 14-28, 7 speed. I am aware of the Shimano (about $20) and Suntour
($50-$90). What other makes are available in this gear range for $60 max? If Gigieme or Regina
make one, would I notice a difference in shifting from the Shimano? TIA.

Jerry C.

What kind of derailleurs do you have? IMHO, Shimano cassettes and freewheels shift pretty well with
Shimano derailleurs. I wouldn't use that as a justification for changing. Durability I can't comment
on. Again, IMHO, Shimano, for the money, are pretty durable.

Cheers,

Scott..

SRAM/Sachs has 7-spd still available. If you can get the Shimano for $20, though, go with it!

"Jerry C." <[email hidden]> wrote in :"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

I need a freewheel, 13-28 or 14-28, 7 speed. I am aware of the Shimano (about $20) and Suntour
($50-$90). What other makes are available in this gear range for $60 max? If Gigieme or Regina
make one, would I notice a difference in shifting from the Shimano? TIA.

Jerry C.

"Jerry C." <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I need a freewheel, 13-28 or 14-28, 7 speed. I am aware of the Shimano (about $20) and Suntour
($50-$90). What other makes are available in this gear range for $60 max? If Gigieme or Regina
make one, would I notice a difference in shifting from the Shimano? TIA.

Jerry C.

I bought a Shimano HG37 14-28 freewheel a few months ago for about US$15 from our local REI store.
You may also be able to locate a SunRace 13-28 for around the same price. I doubt that you'll see
any difference in shifting between the HG37 and a more expensive freewheel.....

I have a Campy Nuovo Record rear derailleur and a local bike shop mechanic just looked at it and
said that a 28t gear may not fit. He thought that perhaps a 26t gear may be the largest that could
fit without changing derailleurs. Ergo, I have to rethink my options. Putting a new Campy rear
derailleur with a 14-28 freewheel is one option, although that changes the investment into my 15
year old Bianchi. The second option is finding a 13-26 freewheel and maintaining my original
derailleur. A Shimano derailleur is simply not an option for me. If the investment gets too big, the
better choice is getting a new bike.

Jerry C. ------------------------------------->

Quoted message said:

S. Anderson responded: What kind of derailleurs do you have? IMHO, Shimano cassettes and
freewheels shift pretty well with Shimano derailleurs. I wouldn't use that as a justification
for changing. Durability I can't comment on. Again, IMHO, Shimano, for the money, are pretty
durable.

Cheers,

Scott..

-----------------------------------------------

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Jerry C." <[email hidden]> wrote in message

I need a freewheel, 13-28 or 14-28, 7 speed. I am aware of the Shimano (about $20) and Suntour
($50-$90). What other makes are available in this gear range for $60 max? If Gigieme or Regina
make one, would I notice a difference in shifting from the Shimano? TIA.

Jerry C.

Jerry C. said:

I have a Campy Nuovo Record rear derailleur and a local bike shop mechanic just looked at it and
said that a 28t gear may not fit. He thought that perhaps a 26t gear may be the largest that could
fit without changing derailleurs. Ergo, I have to rethink my options.

With careful setup, and not too big a jump in front, Nuovo Records can generally be made to handle a
28 in back, though the shift quality will still be very much worse than even a cheap modern unit.

I think that much of the reputation that those derailers used to have for good shifting owed more
to the close ratio freewheels commonly used with them than to any particular merit of the
derailer itself.

Quoted message said:

Putting a new Campy rear derailleur with a 14-28 freewheel is one option, although that changes
the investment into my 15 year old Bianchi. The second option is finding a 13-26 freewheel and
maintaining my original derailleur. A Shimano derailleur is simply not an option for me.

Of course it is! Even the cheapest Shimano derailer will be a functional upgrade.

It is silly to get hung up on some goofy prejudice to the point that it prevents you from getting
the gearing your need.

Quoted message said:

If the investment gets too big, the better choice is getting a new bike.

Right, ditch a great bike because of some hang-up that keeps you from spending a very few bucks on a
part that will provide the functionality you lack.

Sheldon "Common Sense" Brown +----------------------------------------------------+
| If one lets fear or hate or anger take posession | of the mind, they become self-forged chains. |
| --Helen Gahagan Douglas |
+----------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 harriscyclery.comharriscyclery.comOpen ↗ Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
captainbike.comcaptainbike.comOpen ↗ sheldonbrown.comsheldonbrown.comOpen ↗

Sheldon Brown said:

I think that much of the reputation that those derailers used to have for good shifting owed more
to the close ratio freewheels commonly used with them than to any particular merit of the
derailer itself.

Well, I think it was more based on the competition, or lack thereof. The next-best derailleur of the
late '60s or early '70s was the Simplex, and it could not compare. Until SunTour came along Campy
was in a class by itself.

But I do agree that even a low-end Shimano derailleur of today will vastly outperform that
old Campy NR.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | When you are up to your ass in alligators, it's hard to remember _`\(,_ | that your initial
objective was to drain the swamp. -- LBJ (_)/ (_) |

Jerry C. said:

I have a Campy Nuovo Record rear derailleur and a local bike shop mechanic just looked at it and
said that a 28t gear may not fit. He thought that perhaps a 26t gear may be the largest that could
fit without changing derailleurs.

Rats. You mean that all those miles I rode on my paramount with a
42/54T and the 14-28T nuovo record in the rear were not valid and did not count ?!?! Rats
Rats Rats !!!

I have seen web sites (sorry cannot remember) that talk about how to adjust the nuovo record for a
28T rear cog. The main thing is to get the derailleur as far from the axle as possible, which means
taking a ruler, starting at the axle, extend the ruler through the upper campy pivot bolt, and then
adjust the derailleur angle so the ruler goes through the lower pivot bolt. Also, you might want to
move the rear wheel backwards a bit (twiddle the dropout adjusters) to get more clearance.

On my bike do have some problems shifting _OUT_ of the 28T/54T (3rd) gear. This is the most
stressful gear on the bike for the chain so i try not to use it and I very seldom get into that
gear. And, I cannot remember if I optimized my bike or not for this derailleur - certainly i didn't
twiddle the dropout adjusters to get a few more mm.

Also, a more slippery freewheel (I use a suntour pro-compe) and chain (silver/nickel plated, or
brass plated) might make it easier to get in and out of this one gear. All other gears should
work fine.

- Don Gillies San Diego, CA

Sheldon,

You have a good reputation and I'm sure that you know what you're talking about. However, your
sentence "It is silly to get hung up on some goofy prejudice to the point that it prevents you from
getting the gearing your need" is poorly worded because (1) what I'm saying is not "silly", (2) I'm
not "hung up", and (3) I don't have a "goofy prejudice". However your choice of emotional terms does
not invalidate your idea that their are options I should consider.

First, am I correct in assuming that 13-28 or 14-28 gearing in the rear is the best economical
choice to improving my hill gearing? Am I correct in assuming that changing from my Ofmega double
144mm chainring to a triple chainring in front involves other changes too, such as a new crank and
bottom bracket, making that $150-$175 for parts plus labor? That doesn't include rear
gearing/derailleur changes, shift lever changes, chain, etc.

Second, if my Nuovo Record rear derailleur doesn't work with a 14-28 freewheel, will a new Veloce or
Veloce Triple derailleur work with a freewheel? If current Campys work only with cassettes, what
other parts need to be replaced besides the cassette and derailleur? (Keep in mind my old shift
levers are on my frame and not incorporated into the brake levers)

Third, would a new 105 or Ultegra rear derailleur and chain work with a freewheel, my frame mounted
shift levers and my Ofmega front chainrings? If not, what other parts are required?

Fourth, Suntour freewheels with custom gearing are still available at a premium and they have been
recommended to me. Might this actually be the best economy choice to extend my gearing from the
current 13-24 to, let's say, 13-26 if that is the maximum my Nuovo Record derailleur will hold? Does
Shimano make a 13-26 freewheel?

Fifth, are there other options that you would recommend that are do-able for up to approximately
$150 parts + labor?

Sixth, you said "Right, ditch a great bike ...". I like my bike except for the gearing range and the
Modolo America brakes. However, I don't know if it is a "great bike" and thus worth ??? dollars
restoration. How is the Bianchi a "great bike"? I don't even know the model, although it was
somewhere around $750-$800 in '88.

I apologize for my lengthy comprehensive approach, for it requires more time to respond to. I read a
fair amount of your web site to avoid asking questions that you already posted answers to.

Jerry Cipriano
----------------------------------------

Quoted message said:

Sheldon Brown wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Jerry C. wrote:

I have a Campy Nuovo Record rear derailleur and a local bike shop mechanic just looked at it and
said that a 28t gear may not fit. He thought that perhaps a 26t gear may be the largest that
could fit without changing derailleurs. Ergo, I have to rethink my options.

Quoted message said:

With careful setup, and not too big a jump in front, Nuovo Records can generally be made to
handle a 28 in back, though the shift quality will still be very much worse than even a cheap
modern unit.

I think that much of the reputation that those derailers used to have for good shifting owed more
to the close ratio freewheels commonly used with them than to any particular merit of the
derailer itself.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Putting a new Campy rear derailleur with a 14-28 freewheel is one option, although that changes
the investment into my 15 year old Bianchi. The second option is finding a 13-26 freewheel and
maintaining my original derailleur. A Shimano derailleur is simply not an option for me.

Quoted message said:

Of course it is! Even the cheapest Shimano derailer will be a functional upgrade. It is silly to
get hung up on some goofy prejudice to the point that it prevents you from getting the gearing
your need.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If the investment gets too big, the better choice is getting a new bike.

Quoted message said:

Right, ditch a great bike because of some hang-up that keeps you from spending a very few bucks on
a part that will provide the functionality you lack.

Sheldon Brown

Quoted message said:

Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
harriscyclery.comharriscyclery.comOpen ↗

Thanks Peter. I actually phoned you a couple of weeks ago related to this. At that time, my local
shop hadn't yet told me that they didn't think a 28t cog would fit. Also, they are having trouble
finding cassettes except for the most common Shimanos. What 13-26 and 13-28 freewheels do you have?
Can you get Suntour freewheels? What are your freewheel prices?

My thinking on what parts to install will probably change a couple of times over the next couple of
days. To get more gearing from climbing, I'm debating changing from my current 52-42 to (1) a Campy
dbl. 53x39 crankset or (2) a Campy triple and new BB. What are your prices for those two options?

Jerry C.
------------------------------------

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

jerryci-<< I have a Campy Nuovo Record rear derailleur and a local bike shop mechanic just looked
at it and said that a 28t gear may not fit. >><BR><BR>

may tho, with proper chainlength.

Try the 28t..

We have 13-26 freewheels BTW-6 and 7s...

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Jerry C. said:

You have a good reputation and I'm sure that you know what you're talking about. However, your
sentence "It is silly to get hung up on some goofy prejudice to the point that it prevents you from
getting the gearing your need" is poorly worded because (1) what I'm saying is not "silly", (2) I'm
not "hung up", and (3) I don't have a "goofy prejudice".

Of course it's silly. You said "A Shimano derailleur is simply not an option for me." This is
manifestly untrue, unless you're chained to a pillar in Campy's head office (in which case, why do
you need a bicycle?)
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Distortion Field!

Jerry C. wrote:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Putting a new Campy rear derailleur with a 14-28 freewheel is one option, although that changes
the investment into my 15 year old Bianchi. The second option is finding a 13-26 freewheel and
maintaining my original derailleur. A Shimano derailleur is simply not an option for me.

In addition to specific freewheel recommendations, I replied:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Of course it is! Even the cheapest Shimano derailer will be a functional upgrade. It is silly to
get hung up on some goofy prejudice to the point that it prevents you from getting the gearing
your need.

Jerry C. said:

You have a good reputation and I'm sure that you know what you're talking about. However, your
sentence "It is silly to get hung up on some goofy prejudice to the point that it prevents you
from getting the gearing your need" is poorly worded because (1) what I'm saying is not "silly",
(2) I'm not "hung up", and (3) I don't have a "goofy prejudice". However your choice of emotional
terms does not invalidate your idea that their are options I should consider.

Sorry if I misinterpreted you. There is a lot of what I consider to be irrational Shimano bashing on
this newsgroup.

If there is, in fact, a rational basis for your comment, I'd be glad to hear it.

Personally, I have a great deal of respect for Shimano. They're not a sweatshop, not an exploiter.
They make great products and sell them for amazingly low prices.

The main "secret" of their success is that they spend more on research
and development than the entire rest of the bicycle industry combined.

I've never heard them credibly accused of any dishonesty. Yes, they are tough competitors, but their
success has mainly been based on offering a superior product for a low price.

Quoted message said:

First, am I correct in assuming that 13-28 or 14-28 gearing in the rear is the best economical
choice to improving my hill gearing? Am I correct in assuming that changing from my Ofmega double
144mm chainring to a triple chainring in front involves other changes too, such as a new crank and
bottom bracket, making that $150-$175 for parts plus labor?

That number might be a bit high, but not completely out of line.

Depending on your gearing needs, you might want to consider something bigger than 28. Freewheels up
to 34 teeth are readily available.

Quoted message said:

That doesn't include rear gearing/derailleur changes, shift lever changes, chain, etc.

None of the modifications discussed would require changing the shift levers, desirable though that
might be for other reasons.

Quoted message said:

Second, if my Nuovo Record rear derailleur doesn't work with a 14-28 freewheel, will a new Veloce
or Veloce Triple derailleur work with a freewheel?

Certainly.

Quoted message said:

If current Campys work only with cassettes,

Derailers have no way of knowing how the sprockets connect to the hub.

Quoted message said:

what other parts need to be replaced besides the cassette and derailleur?

Chain. But I thought you had a freewheel...?

Quoted message said:

(Keep in mind my old shift levers are on my frame and not incorporated into the brake levers)

This has nothing to do with your gearing options.

Quoted message said:

Third, would a new 105 or Ultegra rear derailleur and chain work with a freewheel, my frame
mounted shift levers and my Ofmega front chainrings?

Yes. All derailers work with freewheels.

Quoted message said:

If not, what other parts are required?

Fourth, Suntour freewheels with custom gearing are still available at a premium and they have been
recommended to me. Might this actually be the best economy choice to extend my gearing from the
current 13-24 to, let's say, 13-26 if that is the maximum my Nuovo Record derailleur will hold?
Does Shimano make a 13-26 freewheel?

SunTour freewheels don't shift as well as modern units, and they aren't generally cheap unless you
find a used one.

I don't know of any current production 13-26 freewheel. Shimano and SRAM usedta make 'em.

Back in the day, I never had any trouble getting Nuovo Records to work with 28 sprockets.

Quoted message said:

Fifth, are there other options that you would recommend that are do-able for up to approximately
$150 parts + labor?

Sixth, you said "Right, ditch a great bike ...". I like my bike except for the gearing range and
the Modolo America brakes. However, I don't know if it is a "great bike" and thus worth ???
dollars restoration. How is the Bianchi a "great bike"? I don't even know the model, although it
was somewhere around $750-$800 in '88.

That was a LOT of money for a bike back then.

Any Bianchi that came with a Nuovo Record would qualify as a "great bike" in my bike, though the
Ofmega cranks suggests it wouldn't have been top-of-the-line. I don't think it was a current model
in '88, pretty sure the Nuovo Record had been discontinued by then.

Sheldon "Bianchi Fan" Brown +-----------------------------------------------------------+
| Always listen to the experts. | They'll tell you what can't be done, and why. | Then do it.
| --Robert A. Heinlein |
+-----------------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton,
Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 harriscyclery.comharriscyclery.comOpen ↗ Hard-to-find parts
shipped Worldwide captainbike.comcaptainbike.comOpen ↗ sheldonbrown.comsheldonbrown.comOpen ↗

Jerry C. said:

Sheldon,

You have a good reputation and I'm sure that you know what you're talking about. However, your
sentence "It is silly to get hung up on some goofy prejudice to the point that it prevents you
from getting the gearing your need" is poorly worded because (1) what I'm saying is not "silly",
(2) I'm not "hung up", and (3) I don't have a "goofy prejudice". However your choice of emotional
terms does not invalidate your idea that their are options I should consider.

If someone said that a bike in a color they hated wasn't an option, that probably wouldn't elicit a
response that they had a "goofy prejudice".

Sheldon Brown said:

If there is, in fact, a rational basis for your comment, I'd be glad to hear it.

Maybe the basis isn't rational. That doesn't necessarily make it goofy or prejudicial.

Reminds me of Jobst Brandt saying that there's no rational reason to buy a manual shift car instead
of an automatic nowadays, and that it's juvenile to prefer a stickshift.

I agree with Sheldon that Shimano-bashing is often based on misinformation and/or prejudice. But
there are other possible reasons (e.g., aesthetic ones) for preferring one brand over another.

Tom Ace

David, since I am not "chained to a pillar in Campy's head office", and since the Shimano
componentry is not an option for me on my current bike, then what I said is not "manifestly untrue"
nor is it "silly". Why is it difficult for you to accept my choices if they work well with me, my
bike, and fall within my budget?

BTW, I just selected a Lemond with Shimano 105 componentry for my girlfriend. The bike fit her, it
worked for her intended riding, and she liked it. Therefore, that choice was not "silly", anymore
than her color preference was silly. It was a good bike and a good choice, although it would have
been my "personal" 2nd or 3rd choice at the time.

Jerry C.
-------------------------------------------

Quoted message said:

Jerry C. initially said:

You have a good reputation and I'm sure that you know what you're talking about. However, your
sentence "It is silly to get hung up on some goofy prejudice to the point that it prevents you
from getting the gearing your need" is poorly worded because (1) what I'm saying is not "silly",
(2) I'm not "hung up", and (3) I don't have a "goofy prejudice".

Quoted message said:

David Damerell wrote: Of course it's silly. You said "A Shimano derailleur is simply not an option
for me." This is manifestly untrue, unless you're chained to a pillar in Campy's head office (in
which case, why do you need a bicycle?)

Jerry C. said:

David, since I am not "chained to a pillar in Campy's head office", and since the Shimano
componentry is not an option for me on my current bike, then what I said is not "manifestly
untrue" nor is it "silly".

It might help if you tried to articulate *why* a Shimano derailleur (or derailer) is not an option
for you. AFAICT, you have a bike with friction downtube shifters (i.e. should work with just about
anybody's derailer) and you want to use a larger cog on your freewheel to get lower gears. Seems
like the first thing is to try the bigger freewheel with your current derailer and if that doesn't
work then replace it with a wider range derailer. I can't see any reason offhand why the replacement
couldn't be from Shimano Why

Quoted message said:

is it difficult for you to accept my choices if they work well with me, my bike, and fall within
my budget?

BTW, I just selected a Lemond with Shimano 105 componentry for my girlfriend. The bike fit her, it
worked for her intended riding, and she liked it. Therefore, that choice was not "silly", anymore
than her color preference was silly. It was a good bike and a good choice, although it would have
been my "personal" 2nd or 3rd choice at the time.

Jerry C.
-------------------------------------------

Quoted message said:

Jerry C. initially said:

You have a good reputation and I'm sure that you know what you're talking about. However, your
sentence "It is silly to get hung up on some goofy prejudice to the point that it prevents you
from getting the gearing your need" is poorly worded because (1) what I'm saying is not "silly",
(2) I'm not "hung up", and (3) I don't have a "goofy prejudice".

Quoted message said:

David Damerell wrote: Of course it's silly. You said "A Shimano derailleur is simply not an
option for me." This is manifestly untrue, unless you're chained to a pillar in Campy's head
office (in which case, why do you need a bicycle?)

In article said:

David Damerell said:

Of course it's silly. You said "A Shimano derailleur is simply not an option for me." This is
manifestly untrue, unless you're chained to a pillar in Campy's head office (in which case, why do
you need a bicycle?)

David, since I am not "chained to a pillar in Campy's head office", and since the Shimano
componentry is not an option for me on my current bike, then what I said is not "manifestly untrue"
nor is it "silly".

Don't top-post, it gives you crabs.

Perhaps you believe that a Shimano derailleur is not an option. You're wrong.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Distortion Field!

Tom Ace <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Maybe the basis isn't rational. That doesn't necessarily make it goofy or prejudicial.

The man has an all-Italian bike and wants to keep it that way. That's not irrational, it's just that
performance/cost is not the paramount decision factor.

Quoted message said:

Reminds me of Jobst Brandt saying that there's no rational reason to buy a manual shift car
instead of an automatic nowadays, and that it's juvenile to prefer a stickshift.

That would be an ignorant statement, so I'm sure he didn't say that.

Quoted message said:

I agree with Sheldon that Shimano-bashing is often based on misinformation and/or prejudice. But
there are other possible reasons (e.g., aesthetic ones) for preferring one brand over another.

Aesthetics are not an irrational factor. Buying _poorly funtioning_ Italian equipment because his
mother was Italian would be an example of irrationality.

JP

JP said:

Quoted message said:

Reminds me of Jobst Brandt saying that there's no rational reason to buy a manual shift car
instead of an automatic nowadays, and that it's juvenile to prefer a stickshift.

That would be an ignorant statement, so I'm sure he didn't say that.

In this group, Jobst has said there's no longer any good reason to buy a manual car, and that people
want them because of irrational desires for a feeling of control, or because of juvenile notions of
machismo. Do a google search and see for yourself.

Tom Ace

Tom Ace said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Reminds me of Jobst Brandt saying that there's no rational reason to buy a manual shift car
instead of an automatic nowadays, and that it's juvenile to prefer a stickshift.

That would be an ignorant statement, so I'm sure he didn't say that.

In this group, Jobst has said there's no longer any good reason to buy a manual car, and that
people want them because of irrational desires for a feeling of control, or because of juvenile
notions of machismo. Do a google search and see for yourself.

Gee, I missed that.

Something else where Jobst and I are in basic agreement, though I wouldn't care to characterize the
reasons that some folks prefer this atavistic apparatus.

Sheldon "Usually Avoids Automotive Digressions" Brown +---------------------------------------+
| Some say the world will end in fire, | Some say in ice. | From what I've tasted of desire | I
| hold with those who favor fire. | But if it had to perish twice, | I think I know enough of hate
| | To say that for destruction ice | Is also great | And would suffice. --Robert Frost |
+---------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone
617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 harriscyclery.comharriscyclery.comOpen ↗ Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
captainbike.comcaptainbike.comOpen ↗ sheldonbrown.comsheldonbrown.comOpen ↗

Tom Ace <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Reminds me of Jobst Brandt saying that there's no rational reason to buy a manual shift car
instead of an automatic nowadays, and that it's juvenile to prefer a stickshift.

Quite an ironic statement, from Jobst at least.

A manual transmission is usually more simple and more robust than a slushbox. In addition, it is
more efficient. Replacing the wear parts (clutch, pressure plate, throw-out bearing) is a relatively
cheap and simple task done easily with your basic hand tools. Changing the fluid in a manual
transmission can be a hassle, but just try changing the auto fluid in a mid-90s Audi!

I have seen Jobst advocate the simplest, most efficient and time-tested solutions on innummerable
occasions, so this anomaly is quite humorous.

I would love to see Jobst find what is "juvenile" about the above.

Spider