Frame Stripping Advice

Don Whybrow said the following on 12/07/2006 00:45:
..

Quoted message said:

I undid the bolt going down the middle of the stem, expecting it to be
able to come off the steerer, or at least twist in relation to the
forks, but the thing is stuck solid. I do not know if there is a wedge
or expander bolt at the bottom.

Assuming it isn't an threadless stem, which it doesn't sound like, you
need to loosen the centre bolt off about 1/4", then whack it with a
hammer (sorry, gently tap it down with a suitable tool). This will
release the expander wedge at the bottom, and it should all come apart.
If not, there are other solutions...

Quoted message said:

How do you get cranks off? I have cotterless cranks, should there be a
bolt or something keeping them on? I ask as I have managed to push the
inner bolt through the bit on the end of my crank extractor. This could
be as it was part of a 50 quid set of tools that I bought the day before
these thing were rubbished here. Before I ruin a decent one, it would be
nice to know if I am missing a trick in getting stubborn cranks off.

Not sure how even a cheap crank extracter can have the inner bolt pushed
through - perhaps I've misunderstood something. You need to remove the
centre bolt from the crank arm, then use a *proper* crank extractor to
pull the crank off. I know from experience that it is well worth paying
for something like the Shimano tool which isn't that expensive really,
as cheap cranks will strip the thread in the arm. The right tool just
makes the cranks fall off.

Quoted message said:

Minor one this, on a couple of the screw in bolts used to hold the rear
mudguard on I stripped the + hole. One, holding the wire stays on one
side, I was able to hacksaw off, leaving a stub. The other attaching the
mudguard to the BB was not possible to remove like this, so I have just
hacksawed through the mudguard (can you tell yet if I was getting
frustrated). Any tips for removing the stub and complete bolt.

I'm not quite sure where you mean for the first one - is this the bolt
going into the mudguard boss? If so, you shouldn't have sawn it off!
The normal trick now would be to drill a hole down the centre and use a
stud extractor, if you happen to have one about your person!

The other one, assuming you mean the rusted mass of metal that was once
a bolt down by the bottom bracket, you might be able to use an old
chisel to cut through it. I'm not sure why you caouldn't hacksaw it
though - there ought to be enough room to get the blade in.

As a tip, when or if you replace all of these bolts, use stainless steel
ones with a socket head (known as socket caps in the trade). You can
get these for a small fortune on eBay usually, or maybe your LBS, but
the cheapest option is to find a local nuts'n'bolts place and pop in. I
have an advantage -we only use S/S bolts at work...

Quoted message said:

Once I get it all stripped down and cleaned, expect more questions on
gearing options (no, I have yet to measure the dropouts), brakes, ...
etc ...

We're all ready and waiting :-)

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

Don Whybrow said:

Last February my old Claude Butler Odyssey........
............Most of the bits have come off fine apart from a
few bits that have me stumped.

1.
I undid the bolt going down the middle of the stem, expecting it to be
able to come off the steerer, or at least twist in relation to the
forks, but the thing is stuck solid. I do not know if there is a wedge
or expander bolt at the bottom.

Put something on the bolt and whack with soft-faced hammer.
The wedge is stuck, this is common.

Quoted message said:

2.
How do you get cranks off? I have cotterless cranks, should there be a
bolt or something keeping them on?

I've met several close variants in cotterless cranks.
a) plastic/rubber cap on crank. Lever the cap out, to reveal a nut or bolt
underneath. Undo and remove nut/bolt. Then screw crank extractor tool into
threaded bit on cranks, and finally wind the centre part of crank extractor
in to push on crank shaft. Big spanner required to push the crank extractor
part, but it will pull the crank off.
b) Flush-mounted allen bolt with rubber surround. Undo bolt, then fit crank
extractor as above.

The axles seem to come in two types, older ones have a stud on the axle and
use a serrated nut to hold the crank in position. Newer ones have a threaded
hole in end of axle and use a bolt to hold the crank in position.

Quoted message said:

3.
Minor one this, on a couple of the screw in bolts used to hold the
rear mudguard on I stripped the + hole. One, holding the wire stays
on one side, I was able to hacksaw off, leaving a stub. The other
attaching the mudguard to the BB was not possible to remove like
this, so I have just hacksawed through the mudguard (can you tell yet
if I was getting frustrated). Any tips for removing the stub and
complete bolt.

Awkward, but not impossible.

Some heat (but not a blow-torch unless you're planning to repaint the frame)
and penetrating fluid (plus-gas) may help loosen them. Trying tightening
then loosening may help.

The brute-force method I'd use is:
a) tap a centre mark into the stud - if you lack a punch, a big nail will
do.
b) drill very carefully down the stud. Use a drill size significantly
smaller than the stud. This is the hard part, keeping the drill parallel to
the line of the stud. It doesn't matter about being "on-centre", infact
being off-set to one side can help as the wall of the stuck stud will
collapse at the thin side.
c) in small steps, increase the drill size until the wall thickness of stud
is very thin, but not so much that you cut into the thread in the frame. If
you can get pliers onto the end of stud, it will probably collapse as it
turns, and fall out of the hole. Otherwise, jamming something into the end
of the stud usually has same effect.
d) run a tap through the hole to clear out debris and clean up the thread.

- Nigel

--
Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/

Paul Boyd said:

Don Whybrow said the following on 12/07/2006 00:45:
.

Quoted message said:

I undid the bolt going down the middle of the stem, expecting it to be
able to come off the steerer, or at least twist in relation to the
forks, but the thing is stuck solid. I do not know if there is a wedge
or expander bolt at the bottom.

Assuming it isn't an threadless stem, which it doesn't sound like, you
need to loosen the centre bolt off about 1/4", then whack it with a
hammer (sorry, gently tap it down with a suitable tool). This will
release the expander wedge at the bottom, and it should all come apart.
If not, there are other solutions...

Just to mention, the bolt shouldn't be removed completely - if you've
done this, screw it back in all the way, then back it out 1/4", then
tap it, exactly as Paul specifies above.

This should tap in fairly easily. If it doesn't don't go too high on
the gruntometer scale with hitting the bolt. The stem or wedge may be
rusted into the fork steerer tube. It's worth giving the lot a good
soaking in penetrant/oil before poceeding further:
- remove the stem bolt, and drop the oil down the inside of the stem
onto the top of the wedge.
- turn the bike upside down, and dribble oil in throug the biddle of
the fork onto the "bottom" of the wedge, which you can now see from
below (wheel and mudguard must be removed to see into the end of the
fork steerer tube).
- Leave it alone for 24 hrs - let the oil do the work, and try again
the next day.

Don't attempt to twist the stem relative to the fork before the wedge
nut has shifted.

If you do manage to get te wedge nut shifted, and the stem still won't
move, the stem (normally aluminium) has oxidised, which causes it to
get bigger, and it is now wedged into the steerer tube. This is rare,
enoug, but if it's happened to you, Look for instructions on removing
stuck seat posts - it's basically the same problem and set of
solutions.

Remember also that a new stem is both cheaper and easier to fit than a
new fork - this, eh, "friend of mine" held the wheel and twisted the
stem against it in an effort to shift a stuck stem, and only managed to
bend the fork blades. I, er, I mean he, he now realises that that was
very stupid. Go easy at it...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

How do you get cranks off? I have cotterless cranks, should there be a
bolt or something keeping them on? I ask as I have managed to push the
inner bolt through the bit on the end of my crank extractor. This could
be as it was part of a 50 quid set of tools that I bought the day before
these thing were rubbished here. Before I ruin a decent one, it would be
nice to know if I am missing a trick in getting stubborn cranks off.

Not sure how even a cheap crank extracter can have the inner bolt pushed
through - perhaps I've misunderstood something. You need to remove the
centre bolt from the crank arm, then use a *proper* crank extractor to
pull the crank off. I know from experience that it is well worth paying
for something like the Shimano tool which isn't that expensive really,
as cheap cranks will strip the thread in the arm. The right tool just
makes the cranks fall off.

Seconded - buy a good crank puller. Cheap ones will only strip out the
threads in the cranks, which are delicate and fine. The puller is
cheaper than new cranks, a gear-puller or ball joint seperator, or a
trip to the lbs to have them removed.

After you've removed the bolt (may also be a nut), a soak in
penetrating oil and a 24 hour wait (as with the stem) is probably
advised. Whether it'll have much effect or not is debatable though,
since the crank arm/bottom bracket axle fit is *extremely* tight, to
the extent that penetration by the oil may be minimal, but it can't
hurt.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Minor one this, on a couple of the screw in bolts used to hold the rear
mudguard on I stripped the + hole. One, holding the wire stays on one
side, I was able to hacksaw off, leaving a stub. The other attaching the
mudguard to the BB was not possible to remove like this, so I have just
hacksawed through the mudguard (can you tell yet if I was getting
frustrated). Any tips for removing the stub and complete bolt.

I'm not quite sure where you mean for the first one - is this the bolt
going into the mudguard boss? If so, you shouldn't have sawn it off!
The normal trick now would be to drill a hole down the centre and use a
stud extractor, if you happen to have one about your person!

<snip>

If you don't have a stud extractor, the usual advice applies again -
firstly, a good soak in oil.
You can then try grabbing whats left with a Mole wrench (aka
Self-locking pliers), or cut a lot in the end with a hacksaw, and try
using a straight bladed screwdriver in the slot. If all else fails,
you can try drilling it out...

hth,

bookieb

dkahn400 said:

Paul Boyd said:

Don Whybrow said the following on 12/07/2006 00:45:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Another dodge is simply to ride the bike with the crank bolts removed.
Sooner or later the cranks will suddenly loosen. There is obviously
scope for injuring yourself this way, so be careful, and don't stray
too far from home.

s/removed/loosened

Just loosen them a turn or two, but leave 'em in. If the crank comes
loose very suddenly, the'll only go as far as the bolt, and you've got
a far lower chance of developing a high level of personal intimacy with
your top tube.

Once one crank has shifted, stop! Do not ride the bike with a loose
crank - it'll just destroy the crank. Tighten up the bolt on the side
that has freed up just enough to stop the movement, then carry on until
the other crank shifts.

hth,

bookieb.

dkahn400 said the following on 12/07/2006 08:51:

Quoted message said:

I'm not quite sure what Don means by this, but with careless use of a
crank extractor it's very easy to strip the threads in the crank arm.

Tell you what, http://www.parktool.com/repair/readhowto.asp?id=103 seems
to describe it much better than I did!

Quoted message said:

Failing all else you can always saw the crank off. It's tempting to try
to saw through the bottom bracket spindle to try to save the crank, but
this is extremely hard and difficult to cut.

I've had to saw a crank off once, but it was scrap anyway. Well, it
wasn't, but the LH one was, so I had to buy a whole new crankset anyway.
And a new cassette and chain as well of course :-)

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

"dkahn400" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Failing all else you can always saw the crank off. It's tempting to try
to saw through the bottom bracket spindle to try to save the crank, but
this is extremely hard and difficult to cut.

9" angle grinder!

(BTDT)

cheers,
clive

For really rusted up bits I often lay the bike so the part (or the joints thereof) is horizontal and pour fresh Coke onto it. I leave it overnight, come back and the Coke fairy has 'magicked' it enough for me to undo.

Coke also works well with tin foil for brightening up chrome finishes.

I can only assume that Pepsi, Virgin and Happy Shopper Cola work just as well.

Wheelist

bookieb said:

dkahn400 wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Another dodge is simply to ride the bike with the crank bolts removed.
Sooner or later the cranks will suddenly loosen. There is obviously
scope for injuring yourself this way, so be careful, and don't stray
too far from home.

s/removed/loosened

Just loosen them a turn or two, but leave 'em in. If the crank comes
loose very suddenly, the'll only go as far as the bolt, and you've got
a far lower chance of developing a high level of personal intimacy with
your top tube.

Yes, I have to admit that sounds a much better idea.

Quoted message said:

Once one crank has shifted, stop! Do not ride the bike with a loose
crank - it'll just destroy the crank. Tighten up the bolt on the side
that has freed up just enough to stop the movement, then carry on until
the other crank shifts.

According to Jobst Brandt, once the crank has worked loose it's
destroyed anyway. It might look OK but the faces will no longer be
perfectly flat and it will keep working loose if reused.

--
Dave...

In article <[email hidden]>
Simon Brooke <[email hidden]> wrote:
<snip>

Quoted message said:

The older type, the stem has an angle and goes down inside the steerer
tube; there are no bolts going horizontally though the stem. With this
type, unscrew the centre bolt a few turns and give it a sharp tap
downwards (you don't /normally/ have to hit it very hard). The wedge
falls and the whole lot should then come out easily.

Unless it wasn't greased on assembly, in which case it's quite likely
welded itself to the forks with bimetallic corrosion. The solution in
this case (if soaking in PlusGas for a few days doesn't work) is to
remove the expander bolt and hacksaw the top off the stem so the forks
can be removed (but leave as much stem as possible sticking out to
grip). Heat on a gas cooker then quickly clamp the stem stub in a vice
and wrestle the forks off. Failing that, cut the stem flush with the
forks and split it with a hacksaw blade (tedious, can damage steerer
tube).

In article said:

Quoted message said:

I undid the bolt going down the middle of the stem, expecting it to be
able to come off the steerer, or at least twist in relation to the
forks, but the thing is stuck solid. I do not know if there is a wedge
or expander bolt at the bottom.

Put something on the bolt and whack with soft-faced hammer.
The wedge is stuck, this is common.

But sometimes freeing the wedge doesn't help because the stem has corroded
in place, and more desperate measures are called for.
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/stuck-stem.html
"A skilled mechanic can saw off and drill the stem out until it is a thin
shell, then break through one side of the shell with a grinder to extract
the stem. Because aluminum corrosion expands enough to stretch the steel
steer tube, it cannot be loosened by force.
...
Get it removed by a competent shop. Frame builders do this regularly."

(Or, more simply, cut through the stem so you can take the fork out,
then replace both the fork and stem. Or, even more simply, decide you
can live with the existing fork and stem and bearings (you can change the
balls and regrease the bearings without removing the stem, but not change
the races).)

In article <[email hidden]>
Alan Braggins <[email hidden]> wrote:
<snip>

Quoted message said:

Or, even more simply, decide you
can live with the existing fork and stem and bearings (you can change the
balls and regrease the bearings without removing the stem,

Not if the stem is low in the steerer ...

wheelist said the following on 12/07/2006 12:03:

Quoted message said:

For really rusted up bits I often lay the bike so the part (or the
joints thereof) is horizontal and pour fresh Coke onto it. I leave it
overnight, come back and the Coke fairy has 'magicked' it enough for me
to undo.

Coke also works well with tin foil for brightening up chrome finishes.

I can only assume that Pepsi, Virgin and Happy Shopper Cola work just
as well.

I think the active ingredient here is phosphoric acid, so a liquid rust
remover such as Jenolite will probably have the same effect, and is
probably cheaper!

To find the best fizzy drink for the job, just look for the one that
rots your teeth the fastest!

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

"Paul Boyd" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I can only assume that Pepsi, Virgin and Happy Shopper Cola work just
as well.

I think the active ingredient here is phosphoric acid, so a liquid rust
remover such as Jenolite will probably have the same effect, and is
probably cheaper!

I think 19p for two litres of nastiest value coke wins...

cheers,
clive

In article said:

Alan Braggins <[email hidden]> wrote:
<snip>

Quoted message said:

Or, even more simply, decide you
can live with the existing fork and stem and bearings (you can change the
balls and regrease the bearings without removing the stem,

Not if the stem is low in the steerer ...

True. Luckily when I had the same problem with my sister's bike which I was
overhauling and respraying for my wife, the stem wasn't that low.
I imagine if the stem is that low it's extremely difficult to cut it off
while leaving anything to get a grip on too, so drill and then cut stem
through from inside is going to be the only option.

in message <[email hidden]>,

dkahn400 (') said:

Quoted message said:

Once one crank has shifted, stop!  Do not ride the bike with a loose
crank - it'll just destroy the crank.  Tighten up the bolt on the side
that has freed up just enough to stop the movement, then carry on
until the other crank shifts.

According to Jobst Brandt, once the crank has worked loose it's
destroyed anyway. It might look OK but the faces will no longer be
perfectly flat and it will keep working loose if reused.

As usual, Brandt knows not whereof he speaks. My winter bike still has a
crank which fell off two years ago. Put it back, tightened it up,
sorted, no further problems. Done at least 3,000 miles on that bike
since.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; I put the 'sexy' in 'dyslexia'

Don Whybrow wrote:

[snip]

Thanks for all the advice, results to date ...

1. Stuck Stem: I put the bolt back in, tightened it up, undid it a few
turns, put old screwdriver on top and gave it percussive maintenance.
Nothing. So I have liberally doused with GT85 and will try again tomorrow.

2. Cranky Cranks: I may be overlooking the bleedin' obvious, but I can't
find a crank bolt, after I took off the dust caps I saw this:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/98313423@N00/188332554/

The crank is marked as "SR SUNTOUR". Is the square hole the bit that I
need to undo?

For those that were wondering about the damage I did to the extraction
tool, photo at:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/98313423@N00/188332557/

Yes, I know the photo's are cr*p, I have a cheap phone (as well as cheap
tools).

3. Bl**dy Bolts: I must have dosed these with enough GT85 last night and
thanks to the advise to use mole grips, both the stud and the complete
one have been removed.

--
Don Whybrow

Sequi Bonum Non Time

Turn on, log in, fight spam.

"Don Whybrow" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Don Whybrow wrote:

[snip]

Thanks for all the advice, results to date ...

1. Stuck Stem: I put the bolt back in, tightened it up, undid it a few
turns, put old screwdriver on top and gave it percussive maintenance.
Nothing. So I have liberally doused with GT85 and will try again tomorrow.

2. Cranky Cranks: I may be overlooking the bleedin' obvious, but I can't
find a crank bolt, after I took off the dust caps I saw this:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/98313423@N00/188332554/

The crank is marked as "SR SUNTOUR". Is the square hole the bit that I
need to undo?

What does the dust cap look like? I'm wondering if that's actually the crank
bolt - these days they are often one and the same.

Quoted message said:

For those that were wondering about the damage I did to the extraction
tool, photo at:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/98313423@N00/188332557/

Doesn't look unusable. Wind the outer down so the tip of the silver bit is
at the same level as the threads. Screw into the crank, engaging as much
thread as possible. Wind it back again so the silver bit pushes against the
middle of the square hole (the bottom bracket axle). With luck, crank will
come off. Without luck, the threads in the crank will strip. Hope this
doesn't happen. Apologies if I'm teaching you how to suck eggs.

cheers,
clive

in message <[email hidden]>, Don Whybrow

(') said:

Don Whybrow wrote:

[snip]

Thanks for all the advice, results to date ...

1. Stuck Stem: I put the bolt back in, tightened it up, undid it a few
turns, put old screwdriver on top and gave it percussive maintenance.
Nothing. So I have liberally doused with GT85 and will try again
tomorrow.

2. Cranky Cranks: I may be overlooking the bleedin' obvious, but I
can't find a crank bolt, after I took off the dust caps I saw this:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/98313423@N00/188332554/

The crank is marked as "SR SUNTOUR". Is the square hole the bit that I
need to undo?

Looks fine, you have the bolt out correctly, should now extract with no
difficulty.

Quoted message said:

For those that were wondering about the damage I did to the extraction
tool, photo at:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/98313423@N00/188332557/

I can't see from that photo what the problem is, but if it's that the
little collar on the end of the extractor puller has come off (and
possibly got stuck in the crank), don't worry, I've had that too with
cheap extractors. They still work. If the collar is stuck in the crank,
just use the extractor as normal. If it's loose, 'stick' it back on
where it belongs with a gob of grease or such, and then use the
extractor as normal. The collar will be held in the right place while
it's doing its job, but will of course fall of again afterwards.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; So, before proceeding with definitive screwing, choose the
;; position most congenital.
-- instructions for fitting bicycle handlebars

Clive George said:

"Don Whybrow" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

2. Cranky Cranks: I may be overlooking the bleedin' obvious, but I
can't find a crank bolt, after I took off the dust caps I saw this:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/98313423@N00/188332554/

The crank is marked as "SR SUNTOUR". Is the square hole the bit that I
need to undo?

What does the dust cap look like? I'm wondering if that's actually the
crank bolt - these days they are often one and the same.

The dust cap was a plastic insert with a couple of flat surfaces either
side. I removed it by inserting a screwdriver down one of the flats and
levering it off.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

For those that were wondering about the damage I did to the extraction
tool, photo at:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/98313423@N00/188332557/

Doesn't look unusable. Wind the outer down so the tip of the silver bit
is at the same level as the threads. Screw into the crank, engaging as
much thread as possible. Wind it back again so the silver bit pushes
against the middle of the square hole (the bottom bracket axle). With
luck, crank will come off. Without luck, the threads in the crank will
strip. Hope this doesn't happen. Apologies if I'm teaching you how to
suck eggs.

I am not quite sure I follow this, the BB spindle has a hole in the
middle so the silver bit will go down that and not push against
anything. Trust me, the tool is toast.

--
Don Whybrow

Sequi Bonum Non Time

'Tis an ill wind that blows no minds.